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Alright I decided to playtest Warptime. Most of the time, it only added one or two more kills. Why is it so spammed then. For HQ hunting, it's good, but for Infantry? IMO, there are much more killy options, like spending an extra 5 points for Wind of Chaos, which most of the time while used, I run through beefy Space Marine squads like a bulldozer in one turn with ease. It's simple, fly forward, kill half the squad with WoC, and then clean up.


Discuss.

Well, my DP has it because RAW, it protects him.

Pg 88:

"The power is used at the start of ANY player's turn. If successful, the psyker may re-roll ALL rolls to hit and ALL rolls to wound for the entirety of that player's turn."

Huzzah for blatant rules abuse!

It's one of the few things in the Chaos Space Marines Codex that doesn't piss me off. It's helped my Daemon Prince maximize its killing power many times.

I think winds of chaos is hardly a bad choice, but you need to look at your army composition and determine if it is worth it to help your army.

Personally, when I use a sorc it is with a group of raptors (obv giving sorc wings) to hit tough opponents in CC. Warptime nearly ensures I am hitting and wounding those opponents regardless of the disparity of WS/STR/T. Winds of chaos would at best give me one wound against those troops 50% of the time(under the template which may be a small number depending on how the troops are organized).

When I use a DP it is for basically the same reason (to get into sword range and wreck vehicles/hardened infantry alike) and WoC doesn't help me as much with that as warptime would.

If I need more troop killers, I might take WoC, but when I'm gearing a CC unit to kill my opponents tough selections I choose warptime.

Some people like that it helps take out the luck aspect of rolling in any situation as well.

I've used it to help kill off a 10 man Honor Guard and Kantor. It may only add 1 more kill to your tally but that 1 can be the difference between you dieing and whiping out a squad.

Warptime on Demon Princes allows them to do something they normally couldn't... have a chance to hit vehicles moving more than 6" a turn.

I should point out that, on a Tzeentch model, Warptime AND Wind of Chaos is a potent combo.

I agree with MinMax.

But I still think that as an only power, that wind of chaos is better. Anything takes a wound on 4+, with no armor/cover save?

That's like free kills.

I still don't see why Warptime is so great. I usually have my daemon prince go after infantry or (since half the people I know play nids now) gaunts, in which Nurgle's Rot or Wind of chaos is oodles better.

That's not like free kills. It's a template weapon the chugs really badly against anything that isn't MEQ. Warptime's potency becomes even more apparent when you start combining it with other things: Doombolt, Plasma-pistols, Force Weapons, Winds of Chaos. When you snag two kills with Doombolt, then four more on the charge, Warptime is worth its weight in gold.

I endorse the use of warptime. I want my guardsmen to break from combat on your turn so I can shoot you on my turn. Overzealous chaos players will of course re-roll which means more negative leadership modifiers if you don't wipe out the squad

Volkov wrote: Overzealous chaos players will of course re-roll which means more negative leadership modifiers if you don't wipe out the squad

Canny chaos players will instead re-roll a few of their successful rolls, so that you are less liable to break...

Mortified Penguin wrote:Well, my DP has it because RAW, it protects him.

Pg 88:

"The power is used at the start of ANY player's turn. If successful, the psyker may re-roll ALL rolls to hit and ALL rolls to wound for the entirety of that player's turn."

Huzzah for blatant rules abuse!

How does it protect him? He get's to hit harder in all close combat faces, but it doesn't actually protect him. If you are insinuating(sp?) that you can force your opponent to re-roll, then take a closer look, it is the psyker that can re-roll, you're not rolling your opponents attacks against yourself, right?

Illumini wrote:

Mortified Penguin wrote:Well, my DP has it because RAW, it protects him.

Pg 88:

"The power is used at the start of ANY player's turn. If successful, the psyker may re-roll ALL rolls to hit and ALL rolls to wound for the entirety of that player's turn."

Huzzah for blatant rules abuse!

How does it protect him? He get's to hit harder in all close combat faces, but it doesn't actually protect him. If you are insinuating(sp?) that you can force your opponent to re-roll, then take a closer look, it is the psyker that can re-roll, you're not rolling your opponents attacks against yourself, right?

No no. What he means is by re-rolling your successful hits and wounds in CC, you can force a draw in combat resolution, thereby saving your big expensive DP from the next round of shooting. Very useful against Guard or Tau.

Warptime is a fantastic power. A daemon prince with warptime and wind of chaos will destroy darn near anything.

I tend to use my DP to kill HQ's just because he is good at it. The general problem with that is HQ's can have retinues making it impossible to pick him out in CC. Well WoC and re-rolls generally takes care of any retinue and most likely wounds the HQ as well. Then charge in and 5 hits and 5 wounds he is gunna have to make some good invulnerables to live.

Also, i use my daemon prince to kill tanks that have moved at cruising speed as rolling 6's is hard.

Well worth the 25 points when he kills a landradier that just moved 12".

unbeliever87 wrote:

Illumini wrote:

Mortified Penguin wrote:Well, my DP has it because RAW, it protects him.

Pg 88:

"The power is used at the start of ANY player's turn. If successful, the psyker may re-roll ALL rolls to hit and ALL rolls to wound for the entirety of that player's turn."

Huzzah for blatant rules abuse!

How does it protect him? He get's to hit harder in all close combat faces, but it doesn't actually protect him. If you are insinuating(sp?) that you can force your opponent to re-roll, then take a closer look, it is the psyker that can re-roll, you're not rolling your opponents attacks against yourself, right?

No no. What he means is by re-rolling your successful hits and wounds in CC, you can force a draw in combat resolution, thereby saving your big expensive DP from the next round of shooting. Very useful against Guard or Tau.

Ok, then I have no problems with it. That isn't rules abuse IMO

It's a very good idea. Go Chaos Sorcery!

Edit:

I realized that something to mention is that although the Mark of Tzeentch lets you maximize the effectiveness of Warptime by combining it with other powers, it's worth mentioning that Chaos Sorcerers with the Marks of Slaanesh and Nurgle can still take Warptime as well as their respective Lash of Submission and Nurgle's Rot, although it's more necessary for Chaos Sorcerers with the Mark of Slaanesh because the Lash of Submission cannot be used in close combat (Nurgle's Rot can, and should be).

Something also to mention about Warptime: It combines nicely with Plasma Pistols and Combi-Weapons. In particular it helps make Plasma Pistols much safer and deadlier.

Mortified Penguin wrote:Well, my DP has it because RAW, it protects him.

Pg 88:

"The power is used at the start of ANY player's turn. If successful, the psyker may re-roll ALL rolls to hit and ALL rolls to wound for the entirety of that player's turn."

Huzzah for blatant rules abuse!

I hope you are truly playing it RAW then. I know I would be tempted to make the rerolls myself instead of waiting for the psyker to roll the dice...

Considering that the rules fix the quantifier "All" by making those rolls to hit and to wound those caused by the psyker model according to the rules, then waiting for the model to pick up the dice would be like waiting for a phone to answer itself...

Nurglitch wrote:

I realized that something to mention is that although the Mark of Tzeentch lets you maximize the effectiveness of Warptime by combining it with other powers, it's worth mentioning that Chaos Sorcerers with the Marks of Slaanesh and Nurgle can still take Warptime as well as their respective Lash of Submission and Nurgle's Rot, although it's more necessary for Chaos Sorcerers with the Mark of Slaanesh because the Lash of Submission cannot be used in close combat (Nurgle's Rot can, and should be).

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant, but the way I'm reading the sorceror powers section it says "must have one of the following powers (sorcs with MoT may choose one additional power)". How does that allow a sorc to pick warptime + nurgle's rot if they have a MoN ? I would love for that to be the case, but I'm not seeing how that is allowed. If it said something like "sorcerors must choose one of the following powers (MoT sorcs may choose an additional power, and MoN/MoS may choose a non-god granted power in addition to their god-granted power" I might agree.

Its called a Familiar. It lets you take an additional power. I'm currently running my Sorc with WoC, Nurgle's Rot and MoN at 170 points. An AoE for any occasion.

DarkHound wrote:Its called a Familiar. It lets you take an additional power. I'm currently running my Sorc with WoC, Nurgle's Rot and MoN at 170 points. An AoE for any occasion.

I thought he was saying you could take an extra power simply by taking a mark of nurgle/slaanesh as long as it was the respective power. He didn't say "it's worth mentioning that Chaos Sorcerers with the Marks of Slaanesh and Nurgle AND a familiar can still take Warptime as well as their respective Lash of Submission and Nurgle's Rot". People interpret RAW in weird ways.

I should have mentioned the Familiar.

Warptime + Arhimman = Mega-psycher.

So considering all the anti-psyker love out there, would anybody ever consider a MoK and save the 15pts?

Probably not. Statistically, re-rolling missed hits and wounds will probably result in more wounds than having one extra attack. I'd say you'd be better of just getting a generic Greater Daemon at that point.

Mark of Khorne is the worst option for a Daemon Prince, right behind Gift of Chaos.

Like unbeliever said, I would take even Warptime over just a Khorne Prince.

Soup and a roll wrote:So considering all the anti-psyker love out there, would anybody ever consider a MoK and save the 15pts?

I would easily consider it. Is Warptime usually better than MoK? The answer is easily yes. I could run the numbers for you but WT > MoK if you don't have anti-Psyker gear.
That being said, alot of armies are fielding some type of Psyker stoppers and +1 attack is always useful and can't be stopped.

One way to think about it is that a naked DP will hit almost anything on 3's and wound most infantry on 2's. Thats already pretty damn awesome. Anything else is just gravy.

How can you not love warptime? I mean really its re rolls to hit and wound, its a guarantee that you are killing what you are setting out to kill. And winds of chaos is great, but overall the ability to re roll hit and wounds maximizes the DP ability to kill outright.

It is Invaluable for a Prince, re-rolling can save the combat and protect your spell users in Close combat.

IMHO, the major point of any ability that lets you reroll dice on a single big creature is not really the increase in average effect. It is the much decreased risk to get a very small effect that I am after. Having rerolls flattens out the entire lower part of the curve of expectations. You can still fail your rolls miserably, but the risk of doing so typically goes from the 1/100 to the 1/10 000 range. You know the old prayer: "Oh god of dice, please let me always roll average". And in general your battleplan will be much more buggered up by a great failure, than it will benefit from a great success, because you tend to lay your plans so that averages will be enough.

That is why I love Preferred enemy, Warptime etc. It makes rolling a few dice much more reliable, and in the case of warptime, I may even reroll sucessful dice, wich is just awesome for control.