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So willydstyle mentioned recently that he has a friend that plays a Thousand Suns list and having Bolts of Change on Aspiring Sorcerers is a good idea because at the end of the game it gives them a better chance of knocking contesting vehicles off of objectives. I disagree, because Thousand Suns are expensive and thus need to specialize in what they're good at, which is killing infantry and running interference. If they're generalists, then the units cost too much. But then I thought, "Hey, they're only expensive if they have a wise number of models per unit - what if we were to minimize the number of models and maximize the number of units?"

HQ
Chaos Sorcerer
w/Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Warptime, Familiar, Personal Icon, Melta Bombs

Elites
Chaos Dreadnought #1
w/Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour

Chaos Dreadnought #2
w/Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armour

Troops
Thousand Suns Squad #1
1 Aspiring Sorcerer w/Bolt of Change, Melta Bombs
5 Rubric Marines w/Personal Icon
1 Rhino w/Extra Armour, Dirge Caster

Thousand Suns Squad #2
1 Aspiring Sorcerer w/Bolt of Change, Melta Bombs
5 Rubric Marines w/Personal Icon
1 Rhino w/Extra Armour

Thousand Suns Squad #3
1 Aspiring Sorcerer w/Bolt of Change, Melta Bombs
5 Rubric Marines w/Personal Icon
1 Rhino w/Extra Armour

Thousand Suns Squad #4
1 Aspiring Sorcerer w/Bolt of Change, Melta Bombs
5 Rubric Marines w/Personal Icon
1 Rhino w/Extra Armour

Lesser Summoned Daemons #1
10 Lesser Daemons

Lesser Summoned Daemons #2
10 Lesser Daemons

Heavy Support
Chaos Predator
w/Autocannon (Turret), Lascannons (Sponsons), Possession

Chaos Predator
w/Autocannon (Turret), Lascannons (Sponsons), Possession

Total: 2000pts

The main reason why the thousand sons are expensive is because of the required sorcerer. By having more smaller squads you are forcing yourself to pay for the overpriced character multiple times. I think its wiser to have larger squads to minimize the number of times you have to pay for the sorcerer.

This list needs some way to deal with large hordes and more antitank. I myself am not a fan of melta bombs.

The Chaos Dreads are also questionable due to the chance of them unleashing hell on your own units.

warham113:

Yeah, the whole point of the list is to explore what happens when you take multiple small units of Thousand Suns instead of simply padding squads with expensive bodies. Aspiring Sorcerers are actually comparable to Aspiring Champions, and actually bought at a discount once you figure the Force Weapon, Iv4+, Bolt Pistol, and Psychic Powers into the mix.

I mean, I'm buying multiple small units in order to have more Aspiring Sorcerers and hence more Bolts of Change to see if a competitive list can be made.

The list does have ways of dealing with hordes, but that requires a kind of constant retreat that most players have a hard time understanding.

The Chaos Dreadnoughts are fine. They're shock units: they go in front of the other units so that those other units aren't visible if they go off, and so they can close with the enemy as soon as possible. That's why they both have Heavy Flamers. Their Multi-Meltas can be expected to be quite effective against enemy armour, particularly if they Fire Frenzy near them.

While i find this list very interesting i do have some rather large concerns.

Firstly, are 3 powers needed on 1 HQ who can only cast 2 a turn? i can see the reasons why you have done this but is it really needed?

Why so many vehicle upgrades? There is 90 points worth of extra armor in this list, not including the 40 spent on daemonic possession. Reasoning? In the instances anyone rolls a 2 on the damage table you shall be covered however, is that worth 120 points? Especially with all the armor saturation already present? With that 120 points another Dread could be used, or another HQ after some balancing of the first HQ. Or more summoned daemons.

Of all the vehicles to give daemonic possession too predators are the worst. Most people claim they should always be in cover ( i have my own qualms about that but never the less). Predators are the one chaos vehicle that is completely reliant on its ability to shoot. I do not count vindicators as BS 3 when rolling for scatter with large blast shouldnt make the world of difference. Landraiders shouldnt be used just for their lascannons, and the same argument for vindicators works with defilers, and defilers have strong CC ability. So why daemonic possession on the predators?

The list does have ways of dealing with hordes, but that requires a kind of constant retreat that most players have a hard time understanding.

It's not that it's hard to understand... it's that the board is only so big.
I mean, it's like kiting in a game like World of Warcraft with the Hunter or several other classes... shoot, run back, shoot, run, shoot, run, but the amount of space to run is vastly different. IMO it works there, but not on the table top.

The list:

Sorc: 3 powers...wow...and I don't see wind of chaos. That's utter bad IMO.
Warptime + Wind = win.
What's the point of having both BoC and Doombolt?

Dustbuckets are ok with respect to what you are experimenting with.
Rhinos, I will echo the others...so many vehicle upgrades, are you really looking for them to help or hinder by way of eating up points?

LD's are good for purposes of some horde control and objective taking should the Dust Buckets need to be elsewhere.

Preds are good transport killers, but DP is questionable.

_____________________

On a side note, I was thinking of just responding: No.
But that wouldn't have been helpful...at least it was funny in my mind, but most likely some will snap if I did and start the flamey flame .

mrwitter:

The three powers are essentially to fill up points: the Familiar and the Doombolt are kind of tacked on, but they give the Sorcerer a toolbox that he can use depending on the target.

Regarding the vehicle upgrades, the Predators have to be able to shoot. It's that simple. fBS3 is a small price to pay for being immune to Stunned and Shaken, particularly if they have two Lascannons and an Autocannon to make up the difference with volume of fire. It's not ideal, but then their Lascannons and Autocannons have some backup in the form of five Bolts of Change.

Likewise the Rhinos need to be able to move. Vehicles that can't move are dead, particularly in this list where the Rhinos are necessary to get the Thousand Suns anywhere with reliability. It's a premium, but one that needs to be payed. The Dirge Caster is kind of useless, but I had an extra 5pts.

Sanctjud:

It depends on where you start. Against a horde that's going to have Fleet, then you need to drive up to 19"-23" away and start shooting there, on foot, and moving back, using the Rhinos to head forward to Tank Shock target units into position, and into clumps for the Dreadnoughts. To engage at close range while the Thousand Suns keep them at arms length, which they can thanks to Slow and Purposeful.

I'm not saying it's going to be easy to deal with hordes, and that in fact hordes are probably this lists' worst failing, but it can be done.

Wind of Chaos with Warptime is nice, I agree. It also requires you to get within 8" of the enemy, closer if possible, and you may have notice that this list needs to hold other armies at arms' length. Doombolt with Warptime is pretty good, surprisingly so in fact, so it's a good compromise between range and volume of fire. Personally I would trade out the Bolt of Change for Winds of Chaos and the Familiar/Doombolt for a Plasma Pistol, but the notion is as I described it: see if something can be done with the Bolt of Change.

Let's consider what could be done:

Suppose the Daemonic Possession, Extra Armour, and Dirge Caster were all cashed in. That gives 105 points right there. Cash in Doombolt and the Familiar and that's another Predator.

The Lesser Daemons could be amalgamated, dropping three for a Familiar, Wind of Chaos as the Sorcerer's third power, and maybe add a Twin-Linked Bolter to a Predator with the points left-over.

Yea...but it's 16 bolters...the sorc is prob. not gonna tempt the warp to kill a gaunt with BoC.

Then I'll see the wind as a more defensive power. For when you run out of space, you engage and maximize the damage done.
I mean you do have alot of rhinos and it seems you intent to tank shock them anyway.

In addition, a horde does have other fast elements, it's not just a ground pounder.
Actually, instead of extra armor, maybe Havoc Launchers...as it pains me to suggest them, they are a way of adding more blast weapons and such at lowish cost, making them an expensive alternative to the Razorback.

I cannot say i could justify extra armor on a rhino. While i agree they need to move, rhinos are only Armor 11 and extra armor only blocks stunned results. Most anti-armor wont have a problem with Armor 11 and stunned results should be the least of your worries. With 2 dreads, 4 rhinos, and 2 predators, for a grand total of 8 armored units, something will always get in.

Even if they stun all 4 rhinos. There are 2 predators in the back and 2 dreads wailing on them. You still have the advantage.

I am still very on the edge about Daemonic Possession. I see where you are coming from, but still very risky.

This is off topic but they are called Thousands Sons not suns as in father and son.

Yeah, I like "Thousand Suns" better. It alludes to their psychic powers (with an ordinary non-psychic human shining like a candle in the dark void of the Warp, and a psychic human shining like a sun by comparison), and alluding to their origin (as in Legiones Astartes of the Empire of a Thousand Suns).

Oye, Rhinos can't take Dirge Casters. They can only be taken on Landraiders, Predators and Vindicators. Whats the point then? Lord of Change only knows.

Swap the armor to Havoc Launchers and the Sorcerer to a Daemon Prince with Wings, MoT, Warptime and Winds. With the points saved on that I'd drop a squad of Lessers, and the Dirge Caster, to pick up a Defiler. Personally I like my Defiler with TL-Heavy Bolters and the TL-Heavy Flamer, especially since it'll help with horde control. If you're doing it right, the Walkers and Prince will intercept the enemy before they can get to the Thousand Sons. You don't need more than 1 squad of Lessers to bail the Thousand Sons out against fast moving elements.

Regardin Dirge Casters, and considering I wrote that list from memory, I'd say I'm doing pretty good.

But the notion of adding a Daemon Prince is a bad idea, as they're just large targets, particularly if there's only one. At least the Sorcerer provides back-up to an Aspiring Champion and can have five Iv4+ wounds added to him. Besides, the Sorcerer is 5pts cheaper.

Likewise I don't think adding Havoc Launchers to the Rhinos is such a good idea since they're either moving 12" or dead (and which no protection against Stuns and Shakings, they're not going to be doing much shooting.)

The Defiler sounds like a good idea though, particularly for Horde control. I'd go with my previous suggestions then, but liquidating another Lesser Daemon to upgrade that third Predator to a Defiler as you describe.

I have a hard time justifying a Tz Sorcerer compared to a Tz DP. For me, its a case of "anything you can do, I can do better"

Typically what Thousand Sons need help with is anti-tank and counter assault. BoC is a possible solution to the anti-tank but it does very little against AV14. This means you still have to have some sort of Land Raider killer. The best choices are Meltaguns, Monstrous Creatures or a Vindicator. Of these, I'd go with 2 Tz DPs with Warptime. They should be able to smash apart most Land Raiders you find. Supported by a squad of Terminators with Combi-Melta, that should take care of your anti-tank. Luckily both those options also do a good job of handling counter assault so you're killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

Running around in Rhinos sniping a AP1 Krak Missile isn't a bad idea by itself and could work for pure Thousand Sons. The main issue is that 5 Plague Marines can have 2 Meltaguns and Kraks as backup and you can do that for 2/3 the price of the squad you're using. In a world where Chaos = Black Legion, there is little incentive to move away from the most efficient choices.

minigun:

Yeah, that's why there's five Bolts of Change in this list, along with four Lascannons (and perhaps a Battlecannon). The notion being that quantity and range will make up for the Bolt of Change's lack of quality.

Nurglitch wrote:minigun:

Yeah, that's why there's five Bolts of Change in this list, along with four Lascannons (and perhaps a Battlecannon). The notion being that quantity and range will make up for the Bolt of Change's lack of quality.

Understood. I guess my comparison might have been more "apples to oranges" and outside the scope of this army.

My point still stands on the HQ though and I agree with the others when it comes to the Dreads.

The Daemon Prince does what the Sorcerer does better for cheaper. With the Defiler and two Dreadnoughts you have the target saturation to support him.

Target saturation is nice, but I don't find anti-tank weaponry is what endangers Daemon Princes. I find that the problem for them is anti-infantry weapons and masses of it that isn't directed at vehicles such as Dreadnoughts or Defilers.

They're a big target that dies easily. At least the Sorcerer can be mechanized, and put in a unit for six extra wounds.

Daemon Princes have Eternal Warrior, but so what if they're going down to masses of fire from weapons that don't cause Instant Death?

I mean think about the situation that would best benefit a Thousand Suns squad, to be forced to disembark from their Rhino by a Daemon Princes tearing it apart: They hit on 3+, wound on 6+, and the Daemon Prince saves on 5+.

If each squad has 10 shots, then 6.70 hits, 1.14 wounds, 0.95 wounds on the Daemon Prince to be expected, and more likely 5.48 wounds of weighted expected value.

Similarly notice the following that describes the spam:

Suppose there's only 4 Bolts of Change in the army, the ones cast by Aspiring Sorcerers, so BS4 and no Warptime to supplement. 3+ to hit, 3 to glance a Rhino (1-2 Shaken, 3 Stunned, 4 Weapon Destroyed, 5 Immobilized, 6 Wrecked), 4+ to penetrate a Rhino (1 Stunned, 2 Weapon Destroyed, 3 Immobilized, 4 Wrecked, 5 Explodes, 6 Explodes).

4 shots, 2.68 hits, 0.46 glancing hits (0.08 per result), 1.34 penetrating hits (0.22 per result), for 1.80 damage results:

Shaken - 0.16
Stunned - 0.16
Weapon Destroyed/Immobilized - 0.60
Wrecked - 0.44
Explodes - 0.44

So you have a 0.88 expectation of destroying a Rhino with four Bolts of Change, not factoring in psychic tests. Weighted expected value is 2.44 destroyed Rhinos, which would round down to 1 if they were all in the same unit, but since they can fire independently, then it rounds down to two, and they can be realistically expected to kill one-two Rhinos a turn if in range and no cover. Range subtracts shots down to zero, and cover provides an additional 1/2 return on any damage result, meaning 0.44 expectation of a destroyed Rhino.

@Nurglitch:

Likewise I don't think adding Havoc Launchers to the Rhinos is such a good idea since they're either moving 12" or dead (and which no protection against Stuns and Shakings, they're not going to be doing much shooting.)

The only time they are moving 12” is maybe first turn.
So, you are not thinking of moving 6” to allow the sorc to shoot out of the top hatch to try and stop mech early, maybe to pop a transport to allow the havocs to…cause havoc ?

It makes no sense to me if you have MSU and a mech shooty build….but are suggesting to not shoot until you hop out and expose them to fire or something?
As for Stuns and shaking, that’s the point of having so many of them.

If each squad has 10 shots, then 6.70 hits, 1.14 wounds, 0.95 wounds on the Daemon Prince to be expected, and more likely 5.48 wounds of weighted expected value.

You’ve just spent the majority of your army to kill one Daemon Prince… I will say it has done it’s job.
DPs are good no matter what, even in death.
Hell, you are suggesting using the majority of your fire power to stop one-rhinos…what’s about the LR or 3-4 other rhinos?

What’ about the other MCs? What about random cover save issues?

It just shows the Dust Buckets aren’t cutting it.
Though I don’t mind seeing a series of bat reps of them as it’s still an interesting thought experiment.

The problem with them and MSU is that their rhinos (the way you have them) don’t contribute offensively and the squads’ only real teeth has so many issues. Look at GeneralRetreat’s recent Stronos Spam list…that is MSU doing its thing.

Well in todays metagame with the preponderance of "alpha strikes", drop pods, fast units, short table side reserves, tons of "mech" armys and what not, the game moves a lot faster than it used to. You find yourself in combat on turn one these days. Looking at your list, My biggest problem is that it seems to only focus on attempting to kill the other guy and leave out all the other things you need to do in a game these days, hitting objectives and getting arcoss the board. You have made a bunker army, sit and wait for them to come to you. Not saying that is a bad thing, but this list just cant do it, you dont have enough bodys, getting enough fire power out there. Sticking with your list as is basicly this is what I came up with.

HQ
Sorc , MoT, melta bombs( I had 8 points left over), Bolt of change.

Elite
Dread, MM, HF

Dread, MM, HF

Troop

T-Sons x 5 personal icon, Asp-Sorc, wind o chaos
Rhino, combi melta

T-Sons x5 personal icon, asp-sorc, wind o chaos
Rhino, combi melta

T-Sons x5 personal icon, asp-sorc, bolt o change
Rhino, havock launcher

T-Sons x8 personal icon, asp-sorc bolt o change
Rhino, havock launcher
HQ Sorc joins this squad.

8x Summoned lesser deamons
8x Summoned lesser deamons

Heavy
Pred, twin laz turret, laz sponsoons
Pred, twin laz turret, laz sponsoons

Okay here is my thinking, The two combi-melts rhinos and dreads head across the board looking to take far objectives. The 5 man t-sons with havock rhino move towards mid-feild obective and the 9 man squad with HQ Sorc guard your objective. Preds hopefully sit in cover shooting away, HQ Sorc and unit bunker down in cover popping veicaled with BoC, havock launcher hits squads as they bail out, same thing with the Mid-feild squad. Attacking squads summon the deamons to either tie up units untill T-sons can turn their bolters on them or help clear objectives.
Anyway thats my idea.