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Saw the following list in action today at my FLGS:
mephiston
Librarian
4 assault squads in razorbacks w/heavy bolters
3 baal predators, asscannons and heavy bolters
3 vindicators

The list dismantled a 'Nid horde.
The fast vindicators were most impressive zooming around the table 12" and firing that huge S10 AP2 template. Plenty of shooting and Dante just stayed out of LOS behind tanks until he was need to kill Trygons.

A friend of mine will be running at least 2 Vindis in his BA list. I'm not looking forward to facing it.

olympia wrote:Saw the following list in action today at my FLGS:
Dante
Librarian
4 assault squads in razorbacks w/heavy bolters
3 baal predators, asscannons and heavy bolters
3 vindicators

The list dismantled a 'Nid horde.
The fast vindicators were most impressive zooming around the table 12" and firing that huge S10 AP2 template. Plenty of shooting and Dante just stayed out of LOS behind tanks until he was need to kill Trygons.

No wonder it won. The BA list looks tailored to crunch horde lists. 3 large templates, 12 TL S6 AP4 shots a turn, 20 S5 AP 4 shots a turn all coming from tanks which Horde nid has really no answer for.

Sorry, it looks like a total lopsided fight from the get go. Not impressed.

Nor does 'fast' make the Democannon that much better. It maybe gets it one more shot than before and it's still as fickle as it is on the non-fast version.

More than one game would be better to draw conclusions IMO.

I think this going to become the "canned list", or something similar.

I think there will be other viable list out there.

As a horde Ork player I do not look forward to facing Blood Angels for the first time.

Did the assault squads ever leave their Razorbacks? I remember the last tournament I was in had a triple LR list with Terminators that never left their AV14 cribs. For some reason the Emperor's Finest hiding in metal boxes bothers me.

They had a really intense game of "Look into my eyes." going in the Razorbacks and no one wanted to leave first. that's a real problem with the vamp crowd.

That list has about 0 anti-tank. It is pretty clearly tailored to face a specific list, so of course it destroyed the list it was built specifically to destroy.

olympia wrote:Librarian
3 baal predators, asscannons and heavy bolters
3 vindicators

Begs to differ.

The above are all viable anti-tank, more so thanks to being mounted on fast vehicles tough vehicles. Dante, as far as I can tell, has no place in this list. But otherwise, its a pretty simple spam list.

Keep the baal's (With assault cannons) & the Vindi's, field better troops & hq, go from there.

Dante with his surgical stike and inferno pistol have a good chance at toating anything except a monolith. Especially if he has a squad of jump troops with him carrying meltas or infernus pistols.

The long range anti tank can be summed up as 3 asscannons with 24+12" range, and 3 demolishers with the same range. Not super impressive. 2 imperial guard autocannon squads will put out about as many hits, and at str 7 instead of 6 (but no rending). The pie plates are okay if you hit, but not super. Against a mech list I would doubt you would do anything important. Against maximum overdrive, this list would be super dead.

I have semi OT question , is Blood Angels the only codex where i can field Baal Predator?

Sanctjud wrote:Nor does 'fast' make the Democannon that much better. It maybe gets it one more shot than before and it's still as fickle as it is on the non-fast version.

The real problem with Vindicators before was that you typically had 3 vehicles with AV12 or higher--the Vindicators--and really nothing that could shoot on turn 1 except the occasional Dakka Dread or LS Typhoon. It was easy to point all your anti tank at the 3 Vindies and scream 'LOLGOAWAY', or relegate your S9+ to shooting Vindies and S6-8 at everything else. It was also relatively "safe" to outflank a Vendetta or deep strike a suicide melta unit because Vindies couldn't shoot on turn 1; the AT was almost always guaranteed at least 1 free turn to stop the slow democannons.

With the BA dex, I recently made a BA 'Ard Boyz list with 9 AV13 vehicles and 5 AV11 vehicles, all of which are going to be in position to shoot on turn 1 or very likely to assault on turn 2. So many Fast rhino hulls makes it real easy to form a flying wedge with Vindies/Baal Preds at the tip with side armor fully covered.

Does simply being Fast make a demo cannon better? Yes, but not that much, I agree with you there. Does putting 9 AV13 vehicles on the table that can start throwing gak into his deployment zone on T1 sound very appealing? Yes, it certainly does.

The synergy with the overall army makes Vindies more attractive. Predators, especially Fast AC/Las Preds, are still a damn solid choice and possibly edge Vindies out in many competitive builds, but I have a healthy respect for what the BA codex allows them to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:The long range anti tank can be summed up as 3 asscannons with 24+12" range, and 3 demolishers with the same range. Not super impressive. 2 imperial guard autocannon squads will put out about as many hits, and at str 7 instead of 6 (but no rending). The pie plates are okay if you hit, but not super. Against a mech list I would doubt you would do anything important. Against maximum overdrive, this list would be super dead.

Keep in mind it's a 1750 list. Maximum Overdrive would very likely have the edge, but it does have to give up a reasonable amount of firepower to scale down 250 points. This list also has a point sink Dante in there doing nothing to add to overall list effectiveness. If you had two Jump Pack Libbies deep striking to throw a Blood Lance down the parking lot of MaxOD razorbacks, it's likely that at least one would go off and put S8AP1 hits on a WHOLE lot of rhino hulls starting on T2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:I have semi OT question , is Blood Angels the only codex where i can field Baal Predator?

Yes. The Blood Angels recovered the Baal Predator STC and never gave it to the Mechanicus. They're the only guys with the blue prints to build one.

To counter blood lance all the razorbacks have to do is spend one turn shuffling around slightly. Then you DS in, blood lance 1 or 2 rhino hulls, and get instant killed by 1 of their dozen lascannons.

Meh to this. There's a couple dozen worse army lists out there I'd worry about more. Nids main problem is that they're a horde army in an edition of the game that doesn't reward being a horde army.

The Assault Cannons and Vindicators both have a 12" range, and both tanks have a side armor value of 11.

A nid player just needs to focus on getting side shots off with his hive guard and their str8 shots can pop AV11 with ease. 6 shots at str 6 from a trygon can also pop AV11.

Horde armies just need to focus on maximizing side shots to exploit as many AV11 shots as possible.

schadenfreude wrote:The Assault Cannons and Vindicators both have a 12" range, and both tanks have a side armor value of 11.

A nid player just needs to focus on getting side shots off with his hive guard and their str8 shots can pop AV11 with ease. 6 shots at str 6 from a trygon can also pop AV11.

Horde armies just need to focus on maximizing side shots to exploit as many AV11 shots as possible.

Unfortunately trygons and hive guard aren't very "hordie". 200pts for a basic trygon and 150pts for a brood of 3. Your point is valis, just not hordie... shootie bugs maybe.

I would like to see the Nid list.

G

eNvY wrote:That list has about 0 anti-tank. It is pretty clearly tailored to face a specific list, so of course it destroyed the list it was built specifically to destroy.

Have you seen what demolisher cannons do to armor? Absolute destruction (S10, 2D6 for armor pen and pick the highest).

Pretty damn nasty, since it's fast, it has a 36" effective range. And there's three. Granted, a weapon destroyed result will ruin your game.

Gavo wrote:Pretty damn nasty, since it's fast, it has a 36" effective range. And there's three. Granted, a weapon destroyed result will ruin your game.

That's what AV13 is for. Weee! good luck Autocannons!

Math-hammer shows, if I remember correctly, that an asscannon is superior to a lascannon vs. AV14. As for Dante, he seemed to work well enough in this game--staying completely out of LOS until T3 and then using the wings power to fly over the vehicle wall and assault monsterous creatures at I7 with S10 attacks. First turn is important for the list clearly.

That isn't Dante, That would be Mephiston.

Volkan wrote:That isn't Dante, That would be Mephiston.

Yes indeed. Just call me an uninformed spectator!

No worries bud. Was just clarifying. Does sound really nasty. Lots of dual function in that list.
Do you remember what (if any) special weapons the assault squads had?

Cheers,
~Volkan

Volkan wrote:No worries bud. Was just clarifying. Does sound really nasty. Lots of dual function in that list.
Do you remember what (if any) special weapons the assault squads had?

Cheers,
~Volkan

The assault squads were five strong each, stripped of their jetpacks, and had 1 melta each I think. Only one squad actually left its razorback so I'm not sure.

BA dont even need to go assault crazy. They can just take tons of fast tanks and make life a misery for armies that dont do well vs mech.

I dont play BA, but from a glance at the codex, their potential for alphastrike seems pretty damn nasty.

schadenfreude wrote:The Assault Cannons and Vindicators both have a 12" range, and both tanks have a side armor value of 11.

A nid player just needs to focus on getting side shots off with his hive guard and their str8 shots can pop AV11 with ease. 6 shots at str 6 from a trygon can also pop AV11.

Horde armies just need to focus on maximizing side shots to exploit as many AV11 shots as possible.

Demolisher and assault cannons have a 24" range people, get it right.

both vehicles have a 48" threat range.

this means they can pretty much choose what they want to shoot at, intervening terrain and models allowing.

a standard table is 48" by 48" so they will be in your face turn 1.

not to mention the scout ability of the Baal pred.


i am sorely tempted to start BAs. just to run 3 10 man assault squads, 3 baals, and 3 vindicators.

You mean they have an effective range of 36" right?

Sanctjud wrote:You mean they have an effective range of 36" right?

Unless he was trying to add.. Really bad scatter.. then its 44"!