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I've been considering how best to run my Plague Marine squads and having spoken to a few people, the general consensus is I should include 2x melta and 1x champion with PF.

It seems to me however that adding a champ with PF (an extra 40pts!) just doesn't seem worth it. The meltas should really be doing for any armour that gets that close and really, bearing in mind PM have In3, they shouldn't really be doing that much assaulting anyway.

Have I missed some glaringly obvious use for the Champ w/PF combo that can't be achieved otherwise (or for less than 3/4 champs will cost me?)

C&C welcome.

The fist is of limited use, but if your meltas miss do you really want to lose your expensive PM squad?

Only use I see for a PF on plague marines is that since your I3, you're more then likely gonna be going last anyway, so you might as well make the attacks hurt. But 40 points is pretty steep.

Suggestion! Only have one squad with a Champ and Fist.

Then you save points on however many other squads you have, and you still get to punch out walkers with the FistyChamp. Just deploy so that your Champ is going to tangle with your opponent's walkers and keep the rest of your army elsewhere. Most walkers are pretty slow, and don't re-deploy well.

Fists all around if you are facing Blood Angels though, they've been posting up some nasty looking lists full of dreads.

Alternately, keep your Daemon Prince within flying-charge distance of your Plague Marine squads and just pile in if you get in a fight with a walker.

Ever since i've upgraded/modeled mine with a PF its done wonders. However, is it needed? Thats open to opinion. A PF always helps deterring units away from assault since no one likes going up against them, with anything. I run my PM squad w/ 2 PG and a PF. That way people want to assault them so I stop shooting the plasma, but don't because I've got a fist. Yeah its 40 pts, 63 total for model and everything, but I already pay 65-70 for my NM champ.

My question to you is, how do you expect to blow up that tank if your meltas fail? *hint: PF*

What you have to remember about plague marines is that, while they are nuts hard to kill, they are terrible at doing damage. Without a fist they get eaten by MCs and walkers, which there are lots of. A fist lets them happily walk into combat with MEQs, MCs and walkers, safe in the knowledge that they will probably win the combat by attrition.

Only having a single fist on on of your squads means you lose reduncancy across your army, which in most cases is far more important than a few points saved. It gives you much more tactical flexability if you have multiple, identically equipped units.

I've played lots of gmaes with and without fists on my PM squads, and know I never leave home without them.

Billie_Joe wrote:My question to you is, how do you expect to blow up that tank if your meltas fail? *hint: PF*

You could shoot at it with the entire extra 7 man Plague Marine squad and pair of meltaguns that you can afford by dropping champs off of just three squads. That might help.

Or with the same pool of points you could buy yourself a Nurgle marked Warptime toting winged Daemon Prince. Even if you made it his entire job to babysit your Plague Marine squads and protect them from getting smacked around you would still save points over three Powerfist toting Champs.

My personal favorite (and this is because I loves me some Daemons) is to buy two 7 man squads of Lesser Daemons and some Personal Icons for the marines. They help you with killing stuff in combat, can give you screening cover, are scoring units, and if you run across anything that you don't want to fight with your Plague Marines, you just sucker them into a fight with a bunch of T4 bodies that have two attacks each and a 5++ save.

The only thing Champs seem to contribute to my army is +1 LD on a troop choice that is already fearless. Woo!

Yeah, you could do that, but i think you missed my point. The point is that the PF not only adds to your CC abilities against infantry, etc, but also greatly against vehicles. I'm sure you know that, just think you missed what i was trying to say.

Anyways, if you don't think you should take them then don't. I also didn't know that you ran mono nurgle. If you feel that a DP or another squad is better then do that. Try play testing it and see if it does any good, all I can say is that it has for me, so thats why i'm recommending it. You're the one asking for advice here.

Wha? No, Kingrat asked for opinions, I handed some out. You did too. Both of those things should help him make a decision about what he puts into his lists.

You said the fists make the individual squads better at killing stuff, which is true.

I said the points could also be used to buy all new squads to help add killing power, which is also true.

That works out great for him since he gets (at least) two choices and the reasoning behind them, and can choose the one he likes best. As you said, this is about advice.

yeah, my bad (yet again).

2 PF swings does not a vehicle killer make. You spend 40 points so you MIGHT be able to kill a walker before the Champion goes down, and even then you've got a single Plague Champion wandering the board. Against infantry, you'll win or lose regardless of that PF Champ. What you could do with those 80-120 points is get some actual support units, like a Predator or some Havocs so you don't have to worry about Walkers getting to your Plague Marines.

I won't tell you that you should or shouldn't.
Just think about how your 2 Meltas with no P-Fist is going to handle that Monstrous Creature assault.

If you think you can take him without the fist, then you don't need it. If you think the fist increases your odds enough to make you happy, then you DO need it.

Eric

The way i run the PM is in rhinos with PG because the FNP save, and since most people dont like this 10 man MEQ, FNP squad the champ with a fist comes in handy(pun intended) trying to kill more of the other unit*no norm save with fist* than they can kill yours. also if a walker gets up close, nothing in the squad can even try to stop it, except a fist.