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Ulthwe based Eldar list

HQ: Total: 335
Maugan Ra
195

Farseer
-runes of warding
-spirit stones
-fortune
-eldrich storm
140

Troops: Total: 765
10 storm guardians
-1 flamers
-Warlock
-embolden
116

Wave serpent
-twin-linked brightlance
135

10 Storm guardians
-2 Flamers
-Warlock
-embolden
122

Wave serpent
-twin-linked brightlance
135

10 Storm guardians
-2 Flamers
-Warlock
-embolden
122

Wave serpent
-twin-linked brightlance
135

Heavy Support: Total:400
Fire Prism
-holo-fields
150

Fire Prism
-holo-fields
150

2 Vibro Cannons
100

Grand Total 1500

Tactics, to hide everything in the transports, except the vibro cannons and hug a corner shooting most tanks and then boosting in to the middle and assault/flamer the rest with hq support. The vibro cannons are there to throw the enemy off, as I need no line of sight, automaticly glance any vehicles i hit and pins.

C&C needed

Two HQs in 1500 pt games is a bit much.
How about replacing the Vibro cannons by three War Walkers with shuricannons, 120 pt, its a bargain.

If your plan is to hide everything in vehicles, a good portion of Ra's value is removed. He offers a good shooting option to go along with his close clombat output.
I would recommend dropping Ra and getting Yriel if you are only interested in close combat performance.

Eldritch storm is another wasted option while hiding in a transport. Better to have doom to increase the damage output of your list.
Fortune is of little value here because you lack a unit that really improves from it (wraithguard, seer council, etc).

Vibro-Cannons are sitting ducks in a mechanized list. The warwalkers mentioned would be great.

Later,
WR

wuestenfux wrote:Two HQs in 1500 pt games is a bit much.
How about replacing the Vibro cannons by three War Walkers with shuricannons, 120 pt, its a bargain.

About the 2 HQ thing, what would you suggest instead?

3 war walkers with shuricannons costs 120, so i cant simply change the vibrocannons for them.

WhiteRaven wrote:If your plan is to hide everything in vehicles, a good portion of Ra's value is removed. He offers a good shooting option to go along with his close clombat output.
I would recommend dropping Ra and getting Yriel if you are only interested in close combat performance.

Eldritch storm is another wasted option while hiding in a transport. Better to have doom to increase the damage output of your list.
Fortune is of little value here because you lack a unit that really improves from it (wraithguard, seer council, etc).

Vibro-Cannons are sitting ducks in a mechanized list. The warwalkers mentioned would be great.

On your first point about only wanting cc ability, Ra is there not just for cc, but transports can blow up and leave people out in the open, as well as dealing with outflankers, I can drop him and the unit out and have the unit run to an objective and him deal with out flankers at a range and in cc.

Doom really wont help stem large hordes, eldrich storm has in the past had back its points three fold against hordy lists. Should I be changing fortune for doom?

Vibro cannons force my opponent to either spend a unit attacking it, as I can hide it behind as much terrain as I like and it can still shoot 36", or to ignore it and suffer constant harassment. Unless war walkers auto glance vehicles and pin troops.

I'm still open for C&C

Squig_herder wrote:

Doom really wont help stem large hordes, eldrich storm has in the past had back its points three fold against hordy lists. Should I be changing fortune for doom?

Come again?? Flamers re rolling to wound dont massacre hordes?

Stormguardians can be used to good effect with a destructor lock. They dont belong in CC ever.

Holo fields on Prisms are a waste. Use range as defence instead of an upgrade bringing a 30% pts increase.

BLs are overcosted. Dont use it on all your serpents at least...Allthough as it is right now you have pretty much 0 AT other than the BL so...meh

Maguan Ra (While being the best PL is still a crappy and expensive choice).

Fire dragons is probably the best unit in the whole codex.

Use Dire Avengers as "Black Guardians"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, and Vibro Cannons will not make anyone happy (besides your opponent)

tedurur wrote:
Come again?? Flamers re rolling to wound dont massacre hordes?

Stormguardians can be used to good effect with a destructor lock. They dont belong in CC ever.

Holo fields on Prisms are a waste. Use range as defence instead of an upgrade bringing a 30% pts increase.

BLs are overcosted.

Maguan Ra (While being the best PL is still a crappy and expensive choice).

Fire dragons is probably the best unit in the whole codex.

Use Dire Avengers as "Black Guardians"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, and Vibro Cannons will not make anyone happy (besides your opponent)

On the doom thing again, I have to be VERY close, with eldrich storm I have a buffer of 18" and no need for LoS [unless i miss understand it]

With destructor locks, are they any good for the extra 10, I mean eldar have been know to fail leadership tests and run.

Brightlances maybe over priced, but what other option do I have? they reduce AV to 12, I face Land raiders and battlewagons around were I am a lot.

Telling me that fire dragons are the best unit in the codex does exactly help anyone, how should I incorporate them in, if at all. Just because you think they are good, tank hunting is done by my serpents and Ra.

Can you provide any explaintion as to why vibro cannons are bad? You could help me by explaining your answers to everything and offer advice on what to change and with what. These pointless 1 liners arnt all that helpful, please explain your answers and how to fit them in to my list.

Farseer
-runes of warding
-spirit stones
-fortune
-eldrich storm
140

A Farseer needs both runes these days.
Runes of witnesses are mandatory if you battle the new Nids.
What is the Farseer fortuning? Everything seems dispensable in this list.
Eldrich storm is semi-useful.
I'd consider a Doomseer with both runes.

Doom have a 24" range that requires no fire point so you can cast it safly tucked away in a serpent as opposed to the Eldricht storm where you have to disembark your Farseer.

5 Fire Dragons with a Min (TL Cannon+Stones) Serpent costs 190pts. 5 MGs will melt any tank in the game (more or less). And even if they die after that (which is likely you still have the WS around)

Paying 100pts for a glass cannon that cant move and shoot that causes a single glancing hit with AP-. Have fun rolling on the damage table with -3...

Now if I drop the fortune and pick up doom and runes of witnessing, I am still 5 points over, should I:
A: Drop a holo-field and use the spare points to pick up a second flamer and 3 more storm guardians

B: Drop another flamer for it

C: You find the points how you would do it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tedurur wrote:Doom have a 24" range that requires no fire point so you can cast it safly tucked away in a serpent as opposed to the Eldricht storm where you have to disembark your Farseer.

5 Fire Dragons with a Min (TL Cannon+Stones) Serpent costs 190pts. 5 MGs will melt any tank in the game (more or less). And even if they die after that (which is likely you still have the WS around)

Paying 100pts for a glass cannon that cant move and shoot that causes a single glancing hit with AP-. Have fun rolling on the damage table with -3...

Thankyou for actually explaining your points, so they make sense now.

About the vibro cannons and the fire dragons, while im not saying that I should keep the v-cannons, I would have to find another 90 points for this tank hunter unit. Where should I find this? Also you say they will kill on tank or 2 maybe, so I should pay 195 to kill 1 tank when I can spend 35 points on a twin-linked BL that are great at killing tanks. So if I were to take them, how would I find the extra 90 points.

About the use of a v-cannon, they arnt tank hunters as you seem to think, they are to shake them, if they cant shoot, them im happy with that.

This is how I would configure the list:


Farseer
-runes of warding
-runes of witnesses
-doom
Elites:

5 Fire Dragons

Wave Serpent
-stones, twin-linked shuricannon

Troops:
10 storm guardians
-2 flamers
-Warlock
-destructor

Wave serpent
-stones, twin-linked shuricannon

10 Storm guardians
-2 Flamers
-Warlock
-destructor
122

Wave serpent
-stones, twin-linked shuricannon

10 Guardian Defenders
-scatter laser platform
-Warlock
-embolden

Wave serpent
-stones, twin-linked brightlance

Heavy Support:
Fire Prism

Fire Prism

3 War Walkers
-shuricannons

Squig_herder wrote:Now if I drop the fortune and pick up doom and runes of witnessing, I am still 5 points over, should I:
A: Drop a holo-field and use the spare points to pick up a second flamer and 3 more storm guardians

B: Drop another flamer for it

C: You find the points how you would do it

A, Holofields on Prisms are a waste. So is having more than 10 Storm guardians tho.

Indeed, I'd consider naked Prisms.

Ulthwe based Eldar list

HQ

Farseer
-runes of warding
-Runes of Witnessing
-spirit stones
-Doom
-eldrich storm
165

Troops
10 storm guardians
-2 flamers
-Warlock
-destructor
127

Wave serpent
-twin-linked brightlance
135

10 Storm guardians
-2 Flamers
-Warlock
-destructor
127

Wave serpent
-twin-linked brightlance
135

10 Storm guardians
-2 Flamers
-Warlock
-destructor
127

Wave serpent
-twin-linked brightlance
135

Heavy Support
Fire Prism
115

Fire Prism
115

Grand Total 1181

Now what to do with 319 points left over

Looks much better.
As said, I'd consider three War Walkers with shuricannons, 120 pts.
Add 5 Fire Dragons in a Serpent with stones, shuricannon, 190 pts.

This may sound unorthodox, but you could by 5 wraithguard, a warlock with singing spear and conceal plus a serpent with cannons on it for 318.

Now they penetrate on 5 or 6 regardless, have T6 and S5, plus the spear hits being S9. and have ap2 weapons, great for sm players around here that use termis alot. Or do i have it totally wrong?

Drop Eldritch Storm and the Stones, your Farseer will need to disembark to use that power, and you don't ever want to do that out of choice.

You also have too many full Guardian squads. Are you going to realisticly need 30 Guardians to disembark ? If they do, they'll die, and bang goes your scoring units.

I'd keep one full one, downgrade the other two to DAVU and use the extra points for Dragons and underslung Cannons on your Serpents. Maybe put one of the DAVU units in a Falcon w/Holo-fields for extra survivability

I'd avoid TL Bright Lances on the serpents. They are majorly over priced and dont do the job anywhere near as well as dragons do. you might be able to get 2 WS's with 5 dragons each with the 319 opints + whatever you get from down grading the weapons on the WS's (I'm at work so I dont have my codex to figure it out)

Thankyou for your input:

Bartali wrote:Drop Eldritch Storm and the Stones, your Farseer will need to disembark to use that power, and you don't ever want to do that out of choice.

You also have too many full Guardian squads. Are you going to realisticly need 30 Guardians to disembark ? If they do, they'll die, and bang goes your scoring units.

I'd keep one full one, downgrade the other two to DAVU and use the extra points for Dragons and underslung Cannons on your Serpents. Maybe put one of the DAVU units in a Falcon w/Holo-fields for extra survivability

The transports wont last forever, nor are they designed to handle hordes, hence the 3 flamers per squad of storm guardians. With eldrich storm, yes he will have to get out to cast it, but im ok with that, it can be devastating to horde armies, with a large blast S3 that doesn't require LoS. I like to keep my options open, it stays (it also goes with the fluff that ulthwe rely strongly on pychic support)

A full guardian squad is 20 people strong, a minimum is 10, which it is at, I cant reduce the unit any further, they are 10-20 listing in the codex, you cant get smaller than that. DA dont fit my battle plan, im an agressive player, I dont want a shoot out, im happy to cleanse it with fire and pistols if I have to, but I dont want a shooty army (plus storm guardians are fluffy). Im tosing up on the dragons though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorechild wrote:I'd avoid TL Bright Lances on the serpents. They are majorly over priced and dont do the job anywhere near as well as dragons do. you might be able to get 2 WS's with 5 dragons each with the 319 opints + whatever you get from down grading the weapons on the WS's (I'm at work so I dont have my codex to figure it out)

I face a lot of AV 13-14 [land raiders, hammerheads, battlewagon], I need the reliability of the lance special rule, unless dragons can hit a tank at 36". Its the mobility and the lance special rule that I need to fight the high AV tanks, and there are usually 2-3 of them were I battle. Unless you have another idea

Well with an exarch you get 6 S9 + 2D6 AP1 shots if you hop out the back of a WS within half range. that is pretty much a death sentance to any vehicle. WS's can move 24" (+ 12" if you bother with star engines) and gain a cover save in Turn 1 then hop the dragons out when your close to a LR and melt it. If the dragons die it doesn't matter, you can run the WS away to ferry another squad about.

Gorechild wrote:Well with an exarch you get 6 S9 + 2D6 AP1 shots if you hop out the back of a WS within half range. that is pretty much a death sentance to any vehicle. WS's can move 24" (+ 12" if you bother with star engines) and gain a cover save in Turn 1 then hop the dragons out when your close to a LR and melt it. If the dragons die it doesn't matter, you can run the WS away to ferry another squad about.

That maybe all good if they die, I can ferry another unit, but Ihave nothing else to deal with tanks if i drop the BL and replace them with FD

Squig_herder wrote:Thankyou for your input:

Bartali wrote:Drop Eldritch Storm and the Stones, your Farseer will need to disembark to use that power, and you don't ever want to do that out of choice.

You also have too many full Guardian squads. Are you going to realisticly need 30 Guardians to disembark ? If they do, they'll die, and bang goes your scoring units.

I'd keep one full one, downgrade the other two to DAVU and use the extra points for Dragons and underslung Cannons on your Serpents. Maybe put one of the DAVU units in a Falcon w/Holo-fields for extra survivability

The transports wont last forever, nor are they designed to handle hordes, hence the 3 flamers per squad of storm guardians. With eldrich storm, yes he will have to get out to cast it, but im ok with that, it can be devastating to horde armies, with a large blast S3 that doesn't require LoS. I like to keep my options open, it stays (it also goes with the fluff that ulthwe rely strongly on pychic support)

A full guardian squad is 20 people strong, a minimum is 10, which it is at, I cant reduce the unit any further, they are 10-20 listing in the codex, you cant get smaller than that. DA dont fit my battle plan, im an agressive player, I dont want a shoot out, im happy to cleanse it with fire and pistols if I have to, but I dont want a shooty army (plus storm guardians are fluffy). Im tosing up on the dragons though.

In a tournament are you going to face that much horde that you need all that anti light infantry firepower ? Also, do you really want to be that aggressive with all of your T3 5+ troops ? If you are it's likely you're not going to have any left for objectives on turn 5.

Versus mech armies (which most tournament armies are), those Guardians are going to be waiting a while to have targets to shoot at. On average you'll need 4.8 Lance shots before you get an Immbolised, Wrecked or Destroyed result on a Rhino. Lances are needed in my opinion, as AV13/14 needs to feel at least semi-threatened at range. However for sure fire tank killing, we've got Dragons, Wraithguard or a Council. Dragons cost 80pts for five meltagun/bomb guys, what's not to love ?

wuestenfux wrote:
As said, I'd consider three War Walkers with shuricannons, 120 pts.
Add 5 Fire Dragons in a Serpent with stones, shuricannon, 190 pts.

This is all that needs to be done. With that in place I'd say it's a well-rounded list.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:
As said, I'd consider three War Walkers with shuricannons, 120 pts.
Add 5 Fire Dragons in a Serpent with stones, shuricannon, 190 pts.

This is all that needs to be done. With that in place I'd say it's a well-rounded list.

You're welcome.