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I'm not sure if I should put this hear or under the army building forum, but this seems like the better fit.

There's a big local tournament coming up in my area, and for the first time I actually think I can do pretty well. The problem is not a lot of people in our area are power gamers, and I know that some of the people coming from out-of-town will bring nastier lists then most of our locals. So here's what I'm thinking. I post my list, and you post a general outline of what you'd use to beat it (given whatever army you play).

My list as is

Yriel -- 155

Farseer - Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Runes of Warding, Singing Spear -- 148

6 Warlocks -- 206
1 Enhance, Singing Spear
1 Embolden
3 Destructor
1 Nekkid, Singing Spear
Wave Serpent - TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones -- 110

5 Fire Dragons - 80
Wave Serpent - TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones -- 110

10 Dire Avengers - Exarch, Bladestorm, Defend, PW+SS -- 177
Wave Serpent - TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones -- 110

10 Dire Avengers - Exarch, Bladestorm, Twin Shuriken Cats -- 152
Wave Serpent - TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones -- 110

10 Storm Guardians - Warlock, Destructor, 2x Flamer --127
Wave Serpent - TL Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones -- 110

2 Fire Prisms - Stones -- 250

1845


See I can only think of it from an eldar point-of-view (I'm starting space marines soon) and I can't really get myself out of this mindset. From what I can tell I'll have problems with triple land raider, but if I can box one in I should be able to deal with 2 at a time. i know from play-testing I can deal with two, three is what frightens me.

Please...tell me what you'd do. How would YOU beat this list.

Two Daemon Princes with the Mark of Slaanesh and the Lash of Submission, combined with a pair of Vindicators (mmmm pie) and a good number of havoc launchers ought to do the trick. Finish off by throwing my vanilla chaos marines or berzerkers into assault. My biggest concern is that Farseer and his pesky runes of warding, but since I've got a turn or two before I can start using the Lash anyway, I can hopefully cut open his transport and just hit him with my big scary demon fists. I'm mostly relying on S10 from the Vindicators and 2d6 Armor Pen from the DP's to crack open those serpents, but once your guys are out in the open I can use the Lash to get your infantry into assault and/or pie range. If I can nail an assault with a prince or some marines, those DAs are toast. I'm libel to take some damage from those Fire Dragons, but seeing as there's only five of them, I'm not too worried.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The exact list would be:

HQ:
2 DP's, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission, Wings - 290 pts

Elites:
Chaos Dreadnought, DCCW, Missile Launcher - 100 pts
5 Chaos Terminators, 5 Combi-Plasmas, Icon of Tzeetch - 220 pts

Troops:
12 Chaos Space Marines, Icon of Khorne - 210 pts
12 Chaos Space Marines, Icon of Khorne - 210 pts
10 Khorne Berzerkers, Champion w/PF - 250 pts

Heavy Support:
2 Chaos Vindicators, Havoc Launchers, Extra Armor - 300 pts
Chaos Land Raider, Extra Armor, Havoc Launcher (Transporting Berzerkers) - 250 pts

wait what? Lash vs Mech? Mech with RoWard nonetheless. Your list would not make it.
A list that would beat it is amoung other things a good eldar mech list without a useless 500pts unit. Foot council is the crap.

blood angels?
It's a fairly good list, but you could make a better one. Your Seer Council isn't as good as it could be, I'd pop the on jetbikes if you can, give them all spears and all the warlocks destructor, maybe go down to 5 of them.
Squads of 5 DA's without exarch's saves points, in serpents with stones.
prism's are good. Then as many squads of 5 dragons in wave serpent's as you can sueeze in, use any spare points to either bulk up the avenger squads or the dragon squads. I think this list would beat yours.

Just to tweak your list a bit:

Make the first DA squad either shooty or cc, dont buy the exarch bladestorm and the cc stuff.

Give the farseer runes of witness as well. Any farseer who is going to be using two powers a turn should have ROW. Yes, you have an embolden warlock, but what happens when the unit takes some incoming fire and your one embolden lock fails his save? Either take runes or take two embolden warlocks.



Your list is solid, set up to handle hordes/ infantry well. You are perhaps a little light on anti armor for 1850 point level fights tho. Thats getting into the range where you may well see a good bit of armor, and while the fire dragons should take out one target you may have trouble against an armor spam list. Some IG may field a dozen vehicles at that level, some SM will squeeze in a LR or two, plus several predators.

If you face a chaos lash list just relax and enjoy



Sliggoth

I beat this list the same way I beat every list, killing the things which can hurt me back first then cleaning up the rest/capturing objectives.

The biggest issue with this list is the Seer Council and the complete lack of anti tank. The only units which can put out decent amounts of damage in this list are the Council, Fire Dragon unit and the two Prisms, once you lose them you struggle to kill much due to the Serpent loadouts. Unfortunately these three units are also the easiest things in the list to kill (Council is small and reliant on Fortune, Fire Dragons have to get out to kill something and the Prisms have no Energy Field). If you don't know yet you will realise very quickly that Eldar outside Serpents are just one step away from being dead.

That Council is a bucket load of points, very easy to counter and with the setup you have doesn't actually do a whole heap of damage either. Firstly you are totally reliant on Fortune, both on the Serpent initially to get across the field, and on the unit itself once outside the Serpent to give them half a chance of surviving. So run into psychic defense and you are in trouble. In any case Fortune isn't always going to help anyway, due to the limited number of threatening units in this list I would have no issue firing almost my entire army at that Serpent in order to drop it, even with Fortune up, due to the large chunk of your killing power it would net me. Outside the Serpent the unit is too small to survive even with Fortune (essentially 6 Marines on foot with two characters which only need S6 to ID them). This is compounded by the fact that when you do get the charge half the time you win the combat and end up in the open anyway and there isn't really a good way to get around this. If you really want a Council they need as many bodies as they can get and ideally they should be on Jetbikes. Alternatively run them as 3-4 man Destructor units in a Serpent. Better yet drop them and take something which isn't as easy to counter.

The other major issue is a lack of tank killing power and is probably more of an issue than the Council. I'm amazed that you can beat dual Land Raider lists with this army tbh and 3 would be near impossible. The Fire Dragons might reliably kill one of them, but unless your opponent has no brain he is going to kill them the next available opportunity (when they are out of the Serpent) at which point you are left with only the Prisms to take out any high AV vehicles (and the Prisms would be the next on the target list). I wouldn't want to take on even a single Land Raider list with this army really, the same goes for any list with more than one AV13-14 vehicle. If your opponent is smart he drops the Fire Dragon Serpent first (you can't keep both the Council and Dragon Serpents Fortuned and the Land Raider doesn't fear that Council as much as long as it keeps moving) and can then take them out whenever he needs to. This leaves you with a bunch of short ranged S6 shooting which he can just about ignore. You really need better weaponry on the Serpents and another unit of Fire Dragons.

For a more direct matchup comparison, my usual 1850pt Mechdar list would be unlikely to have too many issue with this list. I have the same number of Serpents and Prisms, but I also have 3 War Walkers, another unit of Fire Dragons and much better weaponry on the Serpents. Basically I can keep running away to negate the Council's effectiveness and don't overly fear the single unit of Fire Dragons as its not even a guaranteed kill without the melta bonus against the Serpents.

I have much more shooting than you due to the amount of points tied up in the Council, so there is no way you can try and play a standoff game (I have at least 36" range on all my tanks with either an additional shot or a S8 weapon + a bucket load more shots from the Walkers). Neither of us would reliably be able to get psychic powers off due to Warding, but you losing Fortune hurts much more than me losing Guide or Doom. If you boost everything into my face I can use both my Fire Dragon squads at once to bring down the Council Serpent or the Fire Dragon Serpent, if you manage to get Fortune off I just target the other one (11 meltagun shots works out to be just over 100% chance of dropping it even with a cover save and I have more to shoot it with if that fails). My Prisms and War Walkers would happily take out whatever bails out (S6 pie plates or massed S6 shooting on a unit which wouldn't have Fortune up) and that still leaves 3 T/L Bright Lances, 2 T/L Scatter Lasers and 4 Shuriken Cannons which can try and open up another tank I guess.
Next turn you are likely in an unfortunate position as you have to take out my Fire Dragon units to avoid losing more Serpents but would struggle to do it without dismounting the Guardians or an Avenger unit (or even two as there is two targets). You could hit them with the Prisms but that isn't always going to work properly due to scatter. If I didn't kill the Fire Dragons last turn they probably kill a Serpent (~60% chance to drop a Serpent if they are all still alive) and if the Council is still alive then they can either take out a tank if they are lucky or kill a Fire Dragon squad in the open. The only other unit which can deal with my Serpents are your Prisms and thats not exactly reliable (or fast). Otherwise I probably lose my Fire Dragons, maybe a Serpent (two worst case) and take some damage to either my War Walkers (hiding behind my Serpents so in cover) or get some minor damage to other Serpents from your T/L Cannons. After this I can just keep repeatedly running away from you (just to keep you off my rear armour), squashing any squads which end up in the open for a turn and slowly dropping your vehicles.

Basically I don't think you have enough firepower in this list to beat me. It doesn't matter who you are facing, Eldar have to take out or at least stall a decent chunk of the enemies firepower early on otherwise they get hit in the face with more than they can deal with. I think most other decent lists would be able to deal with this one as well, you have too many points in sub-par options and too many exploitable holes in your list imo.

tedurur wrote:wait what? Lash vs Mech? Mech with RoWard nonetheless. Your list would not make it.

This is the list I use. I'm not about to design a list expressly to beat his because that's not what you do at tournies. The real reason this list works is because those wave serpents are basically not doing squat against a heavy infantry force and taking up 1/3 of the army's points. In fact, the only unit that could take on anything in most CSM armies is that seer council, seeing as those fire dragons would probably knock out 2 marines before being solved by an assault. The Runes of Warding, as I mentioned, are a stumbling block and nothing more. I might actually keep one of the DPs in reserve deep striking just in case. Bottom line - it's not that a couple of things on his list make mine harder to use - it's that not much on his list is built to kill what I'm bringing to the table.

Well, you get into trouble against Nids.
Your Farseer needs runes of witnesses.
Otherwise, she has to cast powers via 3D6.
Please have a look into the Eldar FAQ's.

It doesn't hurt to put twin linked brightlances on some of your serpents. You'll really feel the lack of anti-tank with this list. Shuri-cannons don't cut it. Or you can find a way to fit another unit of Fire Dragons in.

It seems like a good solid mech eldar list.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought every member of the seer council take a singing speer. A large volume of str 9 shots me be a necessary anti vehicle aspect if the fire dragons die.