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The whole point of setting point values for armies and battles is to establish some sort of balance between the forces of the two opposing players. However, point value in and of itself does not always determine "equality". for example, a land raider certainly doesn't have a 50-50 chance of success against an equal value of ork grotz and probably not even against an equal value of ork boyz, with or without rokkits and pks (especially if that land raider is carrying flame throwers) and a tyranid heirophant could also blast it's way through seemingly "equal" value.

So my question is simply how legitimate is it to use something like the ork stompa in a 1850 point game where my opponent will probably not have any apocalypse super units of his own. Theoretically the equal point values should mean that the rest of my force is considerably smaller and that he would have ample room for increased firepower, but are units like these simply too overpowered for smaller point games, when your opponent isn't using any, even if the point values are equal?

well, the stompa is only legal in apoc games unless you use imperial armor rules

right but an apocalypse game can be played without apoc only units and in the ends comes down to what that players agree on. My friend may very well want to play an "apocalypse" game even with a relatively small point value like 1850 just for the fun of using all the interesting dynamics that come with it and then technically i would be allowed to use it

Assuming that everything is agreed upon and therefore allowed, taking a 1000 point vehicle to a 1500 point game can be compared to taking 4 Land Raiders to a 1500 point game. If you want to create imbalance between two armies you just spend a lot of points on one type of unit whether it's a single super unit or multiples of the type. If one army consists of ten different types of units and only one is capable of harming Land Raiders, and the other army consists of only Land Raiders, you've got a pretty imbalanced and uneven matchup. This should be pretty easy to understand. By not taking units that are suitable targets for the majority of your opponents army you've gained the advantage. All in all this is the standard concept behind target saturation. When people say two Vindicators are more than twice as good as one Vindicator, they're talking about the same thing. 1000 points in vehicles is more than twice as good as 500 points in vehicles.

Take nothing but vehicles but still retain the ability to kill both vehicles and infantry yourself, and you've got a powerful army. Now if you're not very competitive and the concept of fun enters the discussion, my wild guess is that most of the opponents that have half of their army not able to do anything at all during the game except get shot to death, won't have too much fun.

Apocalypse overall is terribly imbalanced no matter what you do unless the game is a set scenario where both army lists were designed by both of the players together in order to create a tight game. According to GW however it doesn't matter if it's imbalanced in the sense that you can't win, because removing models from underneath the massive templates is incredibly fun and cool!

Yeah, that is very true and I completely agree. The situation I am wondering about is bringing an ork stompa into an 1850 point game against Tau. My opponent would have something like two hammer heads and two broadsides piranhas with fusion blasters etc so I think in this specific scenario he would be capable of matching my increased durability with the stompa by his increased fire power and it should theoretically be even but I suppose it will need field testing to find out if it really is or not.

It's kinda similar to bringing two vindicators to a 500 point game. They are going to wreck pretty much anything your opponent brings as they can really quickly kill his infantry and can get his tanks in a pinch if he even brings any...

Don't be afraid of bringing Super-heavies to a friendly game (given that your friends let you). Can you kill AV14? Can you kill AV14 repeatedly? If so, then you're set to take on just about any Super-heavy. If you aren't, you aren't even prepared for regular 40k.

A Baneblade does not pack as much firepower as 3 Leman Russ Battle Tanks. It is easier to lock down and kill. More importantly it is more fun to play with (and against), and that's all the stuff on Forgeworld is good for: having fun.

As a rule (to have fun on both sides), I'd limit the total amount of points in a single unit to less than half the points total. So, I wouldn't bring a Stompa (600 points) to a 1000 game. The game will go one of two ways in that scenario: he can kill the Stompa, and you lack the supporting elements to stop him, so you lose and have no fun; he isn't able to kill the Stompa and you roll him, and he doesn't have fun. At 1500 hundred, you can field a Stompa alongside a sizable horde, and it makes for an awesome battle.

Communication is one of the keys to this sort of question: Does your buddy know what a stompa is capable of? Do they know how super heavies work? Maybe it would help to explain everything and lay out the options and see ho they feel about it if they can't bring their own.

A Stompa is unbalanced in non-apoc games (at least for smaller pt values).
I'd not consider super-heavies in games pu to 2500 pts.

wuestenfux wrote:A Stompa is unbalanced in non-apoc games (at least for smaller pt values).

How?

Seems pretty obvious what he means. I agree with him to a certain extent, the situation is akin to springing three baneblades in regular 1500 points. I don't care how many meltaguns your take all comers list has, it ain't happening.

That said, if the opponent knows what he's facing and is allowed to prep his list, and there is some neat scenario/objectives to tie the whole thing together, it could be a very fun game.

If your opponent knows you're bringing the stompa then for a one off game it sounds fun. You have a definite advantage there but sometimes it can be fun to try and pull off a "challenge" like this. Think of the linebreaker mission in Battle Missions; this sound similar. A standard 40k army vs a stompa, who comes out on top?

Thanks for all the input, I think the consensus is on communication, which will be easy because the individual in question is my close personal friend. Do you think in this situation my opponent should get extra points for his army, maybe i play at 1850 but he plays at 2000?

I think it has potential to be a fun and challenging scenario like you guys said.

No, don't give him extra points.

As long he knows about the stompa in advance it should be fine. Possibly allow him to choose an apoc unit or fomation for his army.

Personally, I like predator assassin squadrons for killing baneblades.