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Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 06/27/2007 8:40 PM

I think a better fit would have been Preferred Enemy: Everybody.

I like the WS5 deal, and it effectively makes them Preferred Enemy: Marines.  BUT I like your take much better in general.  HATE HATE HATE FTW!

As to Death Guard, I think they made out VERY well.  Keep their manreapers (plus some, but also with the 1 = no attak and/or a wound deal), get FNP on core troops, don't need to change squad sizes to keep their 2 weapons, can mark raptors and bikes and oblits (maybe) for tactical / modeling fun.  Sure they lose their Nurgley (and honestly pretty crappy) demons, including the adorable nurglings, and mutated hull, but the first one doesn't matter too much and the latter one got taken from everyone.  So ... DG players have little to whine about, ask me.

Even Tz (pronounced "Tizz" players have some tiny right to whine, as 1k Sons have been WAY changed up, more or less for the better but pretty drastically.  BUT again, now they can mark raptors, bikers, oblits (maybe) for more modeling and tactical fun.

- Salvage

And Death Guard "style" force having access to heavy weapons makes them actually competitive...

Posted By Toreador on 06/28/2007 7:42 AM
And Death Guard "style" force having access to heavy weapons makes them actually competitive...

"Where have you been?" and "What took you so long?" spring to mind...

Death Guard players have little to whine about?

Hmmm... so let's see... IF I decide that I like what's been done with the new Codex: Really it's Chaos and Not Just Regular Marines with Marks, I'll be able to field all sorts of new units in my Death Guard.  Right, that rocks!

Except, it won't be a true Death Guard army.  Like others have pointed out, it will be a force that you can dedicate to Nurgle, but any Chaos force can be dedicated to Nurgle.  That still doesn't make it a True Death Guard force. 

With all that being said, I'm going to take a serious look at what the new Codex does to my current forces of Chaos (over 19K points), and how I'm going to do the reorg... and if I don't like the Codex, I don't play the abusive lists the way others do, so my current opponents don't mind if I keep playing the old rules.

One final thought on all this: when do people think the aforementioned lists for the Chaos Legions will be out?  I ask this because I'm wondering how many people will get their Oblits, Havocs, Raptors, Bikes, etc. painted up to a nice Nurglesque scheme, only to find in the Death Guard Codex that they no longer are allowed because they made the force overpowered... 2 years? more?

-Vilegrimm

Vilegrimm, I am not so certain the legions will be represented. The next codex has a lot of rumours flying about on it. All we really know is that the power specific daemons are suppose to be in it. Beyond that it is all conjecture.

Been moving and lurking.... I don't need to comment all the time.

Vilegrimm -

What's the difference between a Chaos marine force dedicated to Nurgle and a Death Guard force?

Toreador - Thank god you're back, its hard fighting the pessimism of change without another voice of reason.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The same difference that exists between a horse and a donkey. Both can pull a cart, but one is cooler to ride that the other.

Posted By Ozymandias on 06/28/2007 10:04 AM
Vilegrimm -

What's the difference between a Chaos marine force dedicated to Nurgle and a Death Guard force?

About the same as a Space Wolves force and an Ultramarines force who happen to wear light gray armour.

The unique nature, history and modus operandi of the force isn't reflected by using generic rules. The limitations encourage the army to be focused along a certain theme, while the loss of tactical options allows certain units to gain new powers and not make the list either overpowered or too complex.

Sometimes I want to play the Ultramarines 1st Company, the Death Guard Legion or the Tanith 1st and Only. In the past GW has catered to players that want to field a very specific force like that by providing fluff, rules and models. It's a shame that those players that were inspired by the fluff, modelling and unique tactical options that these specific forces present are screwed out of their hard work by the new Codex, which tries to simplify things down so that everyone will field the same generic optimal mixed Renegade build.

I want a little uniqueness and creativity in my hobby.

But they granted uniqueness and creativity and it was abused to 6-man las/plas, IW pie plates of doom, Siren Princes and Daemon Bombs.

If players can't use creative rules responsibly, then let their creativity shine in the models, not in special rules for Death Guard when the normal Chaos codex represents them just fine.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

So, you'd punish the (vast majority) of those who aren't tournament power gamers, for the actions of the few? More to the point, you're okay with punishing the players for the poor rules previously provided by the authors?

I don't think giving you rules for pure-Nurgle chaos marines is really a punishment. In fact, it seems that Death Guard go up in power using the new Chaos dex. I really can't see the problem here.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I have been watching, just not posting here. When the same things are said over and over and over again, with nothing new said, I tend to stay quiet. Up pops some interesting conversations again.

I can see why some people get up and arms about purist notions about the list, but really, we know little of the future of chaos.

They have said that the codexes they are producing are going to be the "main" lists. Any variants or sub lists will be handled through an entirely different channel. Anything in a codex has to be supported, and therefore those lists are the most broad. I am curious to see if they support sub lists in an entirely different way, if at all. I have hope that it will be WD and thematic campaign books where this shows up again, but that is wild speculation.

The way I see it so far, is we now have more playable "cultish lists" with the Thousand Sons, Death Guard and World Eaters being more viable on the tabletop. Emperor's Children had a much needed tone down. Sure you can't make the "pure" lists of before, but you can hold close to the theme for those armies if you so choose. The general undivided list is still quite good, and still has a lot available to make a wide range of forces.

To me it looks like a much better book overall in that most of it seems rather balanced and useful so far. I would much rather have many playable and competitive options over a limited few any day. I know some people will see it the other way, but only time will tell.

Hey wait. So you can't be creative with the new list? That is total and utter drek. People have been rather creative from the opening days of the game system, and with even more restrictive lists. I have seen some very very creative "generic" old school space marine armies.

Creativity is in the mind, not the rules.

This reminds me so much of little kids and boredom. It doesn't matter if they are sitting in the middle of a circus or a fun park, if they want to be bored they will be.

Posted By Ozymandias on 06/28/2007 11:11 AM
I don't think giving you rules for pure-Nurgle chaos marines is really a punishment. In fact, it seems that Death Guard go up in power using the new Chaos dex. I really can't see the problem here.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Again, Space Wolves or Dark Angels would go up in power using Ultramarines rules - assault cannon spamming Landspeeder Tornados, cheap 6 man Las/Plas squads, 2 assault cannon Terminator Squads.

Can you not understand why some people would prefer using rules tailored to their own army?

Saying "Yes, you can't take pet dire wolves for your Wolf Lord, but you can give him a Terminator retinue with multiple assault cannons." doesn't really address what the player was complaining about. They had something cool and unique and now have to field something overused and boring.

The fact it goes up in power is completely irrelevant. Most players don't care solely about the power level of their list - they care about its playing style and whether it makes for interesting and entertaining games.

Having to field the Death Guard as generic Marines who think Nurgle is "an OK bloke" doesn't really represent Death Guard as well as their own list did.

But also playing a neutered list (DG and TS) that gets stomped repeatedly, isn't any better is it? You can make it as pure in your mind as you want it to be.

And we really don't know if they will cover these sub lists or not yet. This is a specific dex that allows everyone to use the most of what they have with more to come in the future.

Well yes, I personally consider it a reasonable expectation that GW can write balanced rules for the different CSM Legions. It's not rocket science.

Since we don't know, it's safe to assume that they won't - at least not anytime soon. You don't see many people rushing out to pick up Chaos Dwarf or Squat miniatures since we don't know for sure that GW won't release rules for them in the future.

We also have no information about what more is to come in the future. Thus, it's only fair to assume the worst. If GW doesn't want people to assume the worst, then it's easy enough for them to provide a preview or say something more definitive on the matter.

GW might possibly have something really cool planned for Chaos in 3 years. I'm not going to buy an army though on that basis though.

I said it in another thread, but I'll repeat it here:
Hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours of work have been relegated to the "counts as" category. I have literally dozens of models who are not WYSIWYG under the new codex. My creativity in conversion and army selection has been "rewarded" by complete invalidation of my collection.

and such is life.

I have hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours of work in a lot of things that are now gone, or in games now defunct. At least with my GW stuff I can still use almost all of it in one way or the other.

Posted By Ozymandias on 06/28/2007 10:49 AM
But they granted uniqueness and creativity and it was abused to 6-man las/plas, IW pie plates of doom, Siren Princes and Daemon Bombs.

That has 0% to do with player abuse and 100% to do with poorly written rules.

40K uses a Points System to balance armies. The idea behind this system is that two forces chosen at the same points level will be of roughly equivalent power.

This obviously wasn't the case with the units you said were 'abused'. Were they really?

They were mis-costed. GW messed up in the Codex , not by giving players options, but by not understanding how the rules of 40K work and pricing units accordingly.

A Las/Plas squad is so effective, not because of being 6 men, but because it provides a benefit out of line with its points costs. Simply changing the points so that a Plasma Gun cost +20 points and a Lascannon would cost +50 points for the squad would almost instantly balance it.

Likewise with Assault Cannons in Terminator Squads - the second one was obviously a no brainer choice when the option was open. Rather than taking away the option and invalidating players' models, a better approach would be to adjust the points. "One Terminator may take a Heavy Flamer for +10 points, a Missile Launcher for +20 points of a Assault Cannon for +35 points. A second Terminator may take a Heavy Flamer for an addition +20 points, a Missile Launcher for +30 points or an Assault Cannon for +65 points.

Viola. Problem solved and no models become useless.

Iron Warriors? Allow them a fourth Heavy Support choice, but make any unit taken in the extra slot cost 200% its normal cost.

The point is that if the options in a Codex are properly priced it is impossible to abuse it. The problems you mentioned all result from the designers not understanding the game, playtesting and giving units the right points cost, not players somehow 'abusing' the list by following the rules it sets out.

Some things are worth it at almost any price.

And you have selected specific units, you just made other options more worthwhile in the dex. Everyone now will take min 5 man tac squads and max out on other cheaper options elsewhere in the dex, which you will have to increase in cost accordingly.

It looks to me they are balancing things in the codex. Sometimes it is by removing options...

I think the point is that the cult legions lose a bunch of stuff they're supposed to have but gain access to a bunch of stuff they aren't supposed to have.  What would Black Templars players say if they lost the Emperor's Champion and Neophytes but gained access to Librarians and Dev Squads?  Isn't that a lot better?  You can have the Emperor's Champion "count as" a company champion and the Neophytes can "count as" scouts.  What more could you want?!

It's interesting to look at the history of these armies.  The 5 main chaos armies (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Black Legion) started out as separate lists but have been progressively trimmed and squeezed and rolled into one single list.  The gods used to have 4 types of daemons each (16 total).  Now they all have to share 2.  Their legions used to be armies in their own right.  Now they are just unit entries.

And at the same time what started as a single space marine army has ballooned into 5 separate independent armies each with their own book.  This is of course necessary because Dark Angels really like teleporters while Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves all like to flip out and fight in close combat in markedly different ways.  You see, Blood Angels like to flip out and fight like Russell Crowe whereas Space Wolves like to fight more like Mickey Rourke.  And Black Templars just go wacky wild nuts like Tom Cruise.  These important differences will be further explored in Codex: Blood Angels and Codex: Space Wolves.

And what's even better, is that this regime will be locked in stone.  Chaos will forever be relegated to a single vanilla list while Dark Angels will always get their own separate book because, dude, Deathwing Assault!  The music is about to stop and some are going to be left without a chair.  Sisters of Battle, I'm looking at you.

My night lords are hit hard. No discussion of any of the things that used to make them at all unique - no stealth adept and no night vision, it appears, and their advantage - no limit on raptors - has now been given to everyone.

What demon do NL use? One with wings - which , under the new demon summoning rules, is worthless. They charge 6" just like daemonettes... but without any of the good rules daemonettes get. And, I'm not talking about the generic demon rules that we are getting now... I'm looking forward even to the next Demon Codex.

So I'm a little discouraged, to say the least. If I use them as "counts as" I can at least give some of them night vision ("acute senses") and actually, I can give them more fast vehicles ( Tornados, etc) than I can right now. Not to mention the chaotic allies I can then take, like demonhosts.

Posted By Toreador on 06/28/2007 1:17 PM
And you have selected specific units, you just made other options more worthwhile in the dex. Everyone now will take min 5 man tac squads and max out on other cheaper options elsewhere in the dex, which you will have to increase in cost accordingly.

And?  If the other options are too effective for their pts, then you raise the pts cost.  If they are not effective enough then you lower the pts cost.  If they are neither then there is no problem.  Isn't that what assigning pts costs is all about?  Am I missing something?

The goal is not to get people to take suboptimal options.  The goal is to not have suboptimal options.  The only way to make people take suboptimal options is to FORCE them to do so, but as long as you're allowed to draw up your own army list there's really no way to accomplish this.

Posted By Toreador on 06/28/2007 1:17 PM
It looks to me they are balancing things in the codex. Sometimes it is by removing options...

Uh... forgive my skepticism but I really doubt they have accomplished this.  I'm entirely certain that even with the reduction of cult legion from army list to unit entry there will still be a best and worst choice.  Then all they'll have succeeded in doing is pissing a lot of people off.  At least we still have the option of using the SM codex.

For example, suppose I want an army of Thousand Sons with a unit of rubric terminators.  Well they don't exist anymore, but I can still take Tzeentch terminators and use "counts as".  However this poses a dilemma.  Tzeentch terminators are not led by a sorcerer.  I could give them a reaper autocannon and have it "count as" a psychic power, but it wouldn't require a psychic test.  All the other sorcerers in the army have to take psychic tests - why should this sorcerer be different?  Furthermore Tzeentch terminators do not have Slow and Purposeful while my power armor rubrics do.  This is inconsistent.  So for consistency's sake I'll just have my rubrics "count as" Tzeentch CSM and the heavy weapon will "count as" a psychic power.  Now everybody is on the same page.  But there's a problem - if I want to have sacred numbers then I can't take a heavy weapon.  So I say, "screw it - I'll just use the SM codex."

Posted By Asmodai on 06/28/2007 1:06 PM

Posted By Ozymandias on 06/28/2007 10:49 AM
But they granted uniqueness and creativity and it was abused to 6-man las/plas, IW pie plates of doom, Siren Princes and Daemon Bombs.

That has 0% to do with player abuse and 100% to do with poorly written rules.

40K uses a Points System to balance armies. The idea behind this system is that two forces chosen at the same points level will be of roughly equivalent power.

This obviously wasn't the case with the units you said were 'abused'. Were they really?

They were mis-costed. GW messed up in the Codex , not by giving players options, but by not understanding how the rules of 40K work and pricing units accordingly.

A Las/Plas squad is so effective, not because of being 6 men, but because it provides a benefit out of line with its points costs. Simply changing the points so that a Plasma Gun cost +20 points and a Lascannon would cost +50 points for the squad would almost instantly balance it.

Likewise with Assault Cannons in Terminator Squads - the second one was obviously a no brainer choice when the option was open. Rather than taking away the option and invalidating players' models, a better approach would be to adjust the points. "One Terminator may take a Heavy Flamer for +10 points, a Missile Launcher for +20 points of a Assault Cannon for +35 points. A second Terminator may take a Heavy Flamer for an addition +20 points, a Missile Launcher for +30 points or an Assault Cannon for +65 points.

Viola. Problem solved and no models become useless.

Iron Warriors? Allow them a fourth Heavy Support choice, but make any unit taken in the extra slot cost 200% its normal cost.

The point is that if the options in a Codex are properly priced it is impossible to abuse it. The problems you mentioned all result from the designers not understanding the game, playtesting and giving units the right points cost, not players somehow 'abusing' the list by following the rules it sets out.

They could also change the rules so that you can't take a heavy weapon unless you have 10 men.  Oh wait, they did that and everyone STILL female-dogged! 

I think once people see the new codex they'll come up with some ways to make their armies work.  After all, what did everyone do before the 3rd ed Codex 2.0?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 06/28/2007 2:35 PM
After all, what did everyone do before the 3rd ed Codex 2.0?

Not play Chaos?

Some people, like ozymandias, have very different game expectations to others, mainly those with names beginning with 'A'.
Those with names beginning with 'A' and myself like to have specific rules and features for different armies, otherwise we'd just play space marines and say that they were evil space marines and paint them red with bronze trimming, for example. And how come space marine armies get different codexes whereas chaos armis don't even get separate lists? Part of what I like about the separate lists is not only the advantages, eg. night vision for night lords, but the disadvantages, like no heavy weapons in khornate armies. Yes, that is a massive pain in the A, but that's part of the army character and part of the fun is to work around it. Self-imposed limitations like that are just silly, because you really have no reason to cripple yourself if it is not part of the rules and no one understands what you are doing. If everyone can choose whatever they like out of the codex, yes there will be some variations in how many bezerker units people take or whatever, but a lot of the flavour will have been lost and the armies will be far more the same as each other. With less units, less rules, less wargear and less options, there are less chances to creatively create a charachterful, different army representing your unique back story, without resorting solely to pain. Yes, you can do a little of what you want, but it is obvious that with less options - there are less variations. It might be a fine army list if you're coming at it as a new player, it might be great. But compared to before, it seems to have lost a lot of what people like. For some people, increase in power of units is not that much of a replacement. What is the percentage of "hobby" players to competitive players (those for whom winning the game with a static army list is their focus)? I think the competitive players are going to be the noisiest of the lot, making their desire for more powerful units appear to be the most important, so it is no surprise that that is how the list is revised.

Ooh, I forgot about daemonhosts. Add in the much more powerful SM librarians, and your Ultrathrousand Sons will be in better shape than they've ever been!

I was still using the (initial version) of the Lustwing - terminators with sonic weapons, and summoned Daemonettes. Back then, the Mark of Slaanesh gave you +1 attack.

Under the current itteration of the CSM codex I really liked the way Death Guard played. They lacked heavy weapons and fought best at a short ranged firefight and were tough in assault too. I felt they fought more the way that you would expect Space Marines to (no long range gunline nonsense).

There were many people who enjoyed trying to maximize the force with the restrictions in place. There were a bunch of interesting ideas thrown about at deathguard.org to overcome the army?s limitations. 6 or 7 man terminator tank hunters with autocannons were tried, so were 7 plague marines in a rhino with tank hunter and 4 plasma guns. I played an infiltrating force. Nurgles rot was an interesting upgrade to use.

With the inclusion of Veteran skills and the limitations of the list, some very interesting armies were formulated and a small community formed around the list. I will echo many in this thread who say that once you lose some of the meager benefits of and the imposed structure of those legion rules, there is very little reason to stick to the background fluff.

Under the rumored dex, Plague Marines sound like a more powerful unit and perhaps a better buy but I don't see the same ingenuity and community forming around them.

Posted By Asmodai on 06/28/2007 1:06 PM

A Las/Plas squad is so effective, not because of being 6 men, but because it provides a benefit out of line with its points costs. Simply changing the points so that a Plasma Gun cost +20 points and a Lascannon would cost +50 points for the squad would almost instantly balance it.

The six-man las/plas is optimal not only because of the price of the weapons, but because the ability to take those weapons is granted by the slot, but the unit itself is priced by the model.

Effectively, you get the ability to take cheap special/heavy weapons for using up the force org slot; the models themselves (minus special equipment) don't figure into this value -- they all cost 15 points, you must take at least 5, and it's considered worthwhile to bump it up to six because of scoring rules.  The problem is that the cheap weapons come regardless of squad size, so any marines past 5 effectively cost more because you've already got the advantage of cheap weapons by virtue of it being a tactical squad, and it costs the same 15 points per model to field more tactical squads as it does to fill out existing tactical squads -- and more tactical squads means more cheap weapons.

Consider if a tactical squad, instead of being 5-10 marines at 15 points each was 5 marines for 100 points and you can add up to 5 additional marines for 10 points each. (Or, mathematically equivalently, a tactical squad costs 50 points to field, and contains 5-10 marines which cost 10 points each).