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'GW is great' are all cheering the 'balanced' nature of the new codex, where it is far FROM balanced. All it is is that what is now powerful shifted.

You might think that the 2x DP list is going to get you somewhere, but face the facts: Chaos is much weaker than it has been in years, and that in turn means it won't be able to deal with the top armies, for example Nids.

Maybe I'm just stupid, but I don't see what the uproar is over the loss of dedicated cult armies. Let's say you play Death Guard. Currently, you have the choice of playing a vanilla Chaos with Plague Marines, or you can play a pure Death Guard army where everything must have the mark of Nurgle. If you choose the latter, you get some minor bonuses to compensate for the loss of variety.

In the new codex, you can also play a vanilla Chaos army with an eclectic mix of cult troops. Or, you can play an army made entirely of Nurgle marked/themed models. Compared to the old pure Death Guard army, you lose the minor bonuses, but you have greater choice on Nurgle themed units.

So...people are gnashing their teeth and wailing into the sky for what reason again?

Now, I completely understand if you've actually got models that can't be used anymore or are very lame under the "counts as" rule - Termies with Sonic Blasters come to mind. Otherwise, I just don't understand what the fuss is all about.

Zoned

Posted By Therion- on 07/13/2007 11:19 PM
You might think that the 2x DP list is going to get you somewhere, but face the facts: Chaos is much weaker than it has been in years, and that in turn means it won't be able to deal with the top armies, for example Nids.

Oh, it's not as powerful as before.  I think the best lists could stand against the zilla list.  9 oblits are hard for a zilla list to handle. The 2+ save walking lascannons that are fearless are very good vs zillas.  Possessed preds also put a hurt on them.  Zillas work by supressing vehicles rather than destroying them.  The princes aren't what would make it powerful vs the zillas, though they would put a hurt on the dakkafexes.

Posted By Zoned on 07/15/2007 6:39 PM
In the new codex, you can also play a vanilla Chaos army with an eclectic mix of cult troops. Or, you can play an army made entirely of Nurgle marked/themed models. Compared to the old pure Death Guard army, you lose the minor bonuses, but you have greater choice on Nurgle themed units.

First of all, there is no "Mark of Nurgle" anymore.  You buy the unit a Nurgle icon and it gets +1T.  Secondly, units with a Nurgle icon are NOT the same as plague marines.  Unlike plague marines, units a Nurgle icon are not fearless and do not have feel no pain.  They are not meant to represent plague marines.  They are simply renegade CSM who happen to worship Nurgle.  You can have them "counts as" plague marines, but they are not plague marines.

Posted By Zoned on 07/15/2007 6:39 PM
So...people are gnashing their teeth and wailing into the sky for what reason again?

Well for starters the Thousand Sons have gone from an army of rubric marines, rubric terminators with terminator sorcerer champs, sorcerer possessed, sorcerer chosen, horrors, flamers, and screamers to a single unit entry in the vanilla list, generic daemons, and "counts as".  But I guess this fits with the new fluff:

After Ahriman's foray into the eldar Webway, the cyclopean primarch Magnus the Red at last permitted his prodigal sorcererous son to return home to the Planet of Sorcerers .  Upon his return Ahriman retired to his old abode - an ancient spire, its crystalline surface scrawled with arcane runes and ensorceled with eldritch might.  Ahriman locked himself away in his inner sactum for nine days and nine nights as the tower crackled with fell energies of such unbridled ferocity they sent fissures snaking along the smooth glassy surface of the vast amethyst plain below.

Finally on the ninth day Ahriman, Chief Librarian of the Thousand Sons, favoured of Tzeentch, emerged and summoned his cabal of sorcerers to him.  To this inner circle of chosen sorcerers Ahriman revealed that through careful study of the forbidden knowledge he had gathered in the Webway along with his own experimentation he had discovered a secret of unimaginable power - a spell which would render the subject completely indestructible!

Ahriman ordered the elite striking force of the Thousand Sons - the terminator cadres - to be assembled around the base of his mighty tower.  Across the amethyst plain sorcerers clad in ancient suits of ornate terminator armour directed their minions, empty suits of hulking armour, each animated by a ghostly glow, the mindless spirit of a former battle brother.

As the last automaton shambled into place the scene fell silent.  A low chanting then drifted down from the pinnacle of the tower and echoed across the plain as Arhiman's Cabal began their ritual.  Suddenly, with a dreadful crack, baleful magicks arced from the tower summit to the throng gathered below, piercing sorcerer and automaton alike through the chest with coruscating bolts of pure gibbering Chaos.  Then as soon as it had begun it was over.

Ahriman ventured down from his spire to survey the fruits of his labour.  All that remained of the once proud terminator elite were burnt piles of ash scattered across the crystalline surface of the plain.  As the winds of change swept the ash away in the magic of the moment on a glory night, hideous laughter broke out across the plain like shattered glass.  For at the center of each pile of rapidly dissipating ash was a small gemstone, black as coal and completely indestructible.  The spell had succeeded.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 07/15/2007 10:41 PM
As the winds of change swept the ash away in the magic of the moment on a glory night, hideous laughter broke out across the plain like shattered glass.  For at the center of each pile of rapidly dissipating ash was a small gemstone, black as coal and completely indestructible.  The spell had succeeded.

Ahh, the classic "be careful what you wish for" story. Brilliant.

And, be careful what you wish for in a codex I guess. Want a more balanced codex? We'll remove some of the options, the result is almost guaranteed to be more balanced as there are less options and combinations to UNbalance it.

On another note, I played a 400point LatD game yesterday - I love those little guys (I won - good on you guys! I never win). I think they are a better embodiment of chaos than the marines, and I'm not saying get rid of chaos marines (not that it would happen anyway) because I like them too, but chaos is just simply not only about the chaos marine - as we all (mostly) know.

People are talking at crosspoints here. Some people just don't get that other people want variety, options, and to be able to field an army corresponding to their chosen dark God. Those some people need to simply accept that this is what the other people want. So they're annoyed. I understand that some people want to play a force like we'll find in the new codex, but we don't need to limit the codex to only cater to those people. We can have more variety and those who don't want to take different demons and who want to focus on marines can still do that by choosing those options. However, if we narrow the focus, those who want variety cannot be happy, no matter how happy the "some people" are.

Finally, who of the "dissenters" who really (and truthfully) like these rumours currently field a chaos army? Did I hear that some of those arguing do not in fact play chaos? By all means, said people can contribute to the discussion, but you can't really argue that your view is right if you do not have time, money and emotions currently invested in it. Sounds silly saying emotionally invested, but this is a game and a hobby. Emotions and feelings, like happiness and enjoyment, are the whole point - not money, fame, romance or whatever.

Just FYI, Jervis confirmed that there will be a Demon Codex released Next year in his Standard Bearer Article in the new WD.

Whatever that means.

I honestly don't think that a Codex devoted entirley to Daemons will be enough to hold people's interests or, for that matter, make whatever new plastic/metal kit they invent fly off the shelves. If it's a Daemon World Codex, as in one that features a lot of the things from the Lost & The Damned list, then yes, but otherwise, it's just a cheap way of advertising a new daemon kit.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 07/16/2007 4:32 AM

I honestly don't think that a Codex devoted entirley to Daemons will be enough to hold people's interests or, for that matter, make whatever new plastic/metal kit they invent fly off the shelves. If it's a Daemon World Codex, as in one that features a lot of the things from the Lost & The Damned list, then yes, but otherwise, it's just a cheap way of advertising a new daemon kit.

Personally, fine by me. I'd love to play an all daemon 40k army. If new kits will give me variety, then so be it. I realize I could do that now, but I'd like to stick with a theme/cult.

The new limitations on Chaos cult armies does worry me a little. If they do not have cult demons, i'd be a bit disturbed. If it takes a new codex, such as a Daemon codex, to give me my daemons, then so be it. I'll play my khorne force to the best of my abilities and the new rules allow. Currently, I'm not horrified with what they have done to khorne forces. I always felt that the chain axe rule was not that great. I winced when I heard the Rage or extra move was taken out. But those rules always made me feel like I was playing a Blood Angel army with spikey bits. Or a BA player was playing a Khorne army that was "holy".

We are going to just have to wait and see. There is always potential for last minute changes and rumors to be false.

And I'd like to see daemon war engions in a Daemon world codex. Brass Scorpion maybe? Cannon of Khorne? Blood Cauldron? I've got models, I want to use them, I just don't like coming up with rules for them.

I agree, but the 2 x DP and 2 x GD (and from what i understand, you can take two of each and the GD is meant to have stats like bloodthirster) plus 9 oblits will be a pretty balsy list. I dont see much out there that will be able to just walk over that list. You have 4 fearless combat monsters, and 9 units that can shoot like hell. Throw in some troops to flavors for taking objectives or shooting and you have a tough army.

Are they Iron Warriors? no, but still pretty damn tough.

The Greater Demons are 0-1, but you need a delivery system for them and I don't like the idea of Bikes for it as if they don't come out (no more Chains) then you can be in bad situations.

Still 2xDP + 9 Oblits + Raptors + Sonic Marines will probably be a very solid army. Everything moves and fires, and you'll have 4 CC units, and you'll have Oblits out the yin-yang.

I think they will stand up to the Nids.

I swear i read somewhere you could take two and they did not take up a FOC slot. Maybe it is just one (which makes more sense) and 2 DP's?

But I agree, Chaos is getting nerfed, but they will still be very competetive. Much more so than the DA's.

What you're forgetting is that the old IW army didn't always beat Godzilla, and they had everything better than the future Chaos will have. Since the Obliterators lost the heavy bolters, and the army won't be packing 4 Daemonically Possessed Destructors anymore, how did you plan to kill the 70 Spinegaunts that are going to tie up all your heavy guns in CC for the 8 TMCs to smash? I have yet to receive confirmation whether Obliterators also lost TL Plasma Guns, and that would simply be another nail in their coffin.

IW had the versatility to go from having 20 lascannons to having a few lascannons and an insane amount of heavy bolters. Maybe it was too much, or maybe the opposition just happens to be so tough that it requires such versatility. Either way, Godzilla now dominates.

My apology to HBMC regarding the lesser daemons with with a generic (and horribly ineffective) statline. I couldn't believe that even a company as poorly managed as GW could go that low.

To Abby: The Mark of Nurgle will still exist as an upgrade to your HQ choices. Plague Marines will still exist as their own stand alone entry. Compared to the current codex,  Nurgle themed Terminators and Havocs in the new codex will do the exact same thing (barring the sacred number bonuses,) as the current dedicated cult versions.

As for 1K sons...granted, they will see alot of changes. Due to their massive unpopularity, we can't really be surprised. But I can't think of really anthing that currently exists that can't be reasonably used under "counts as." I mean, Slaaneshi Termies with Sonic Blasters/Blastmasters counting as Combi Bolters and Reapers is pushing it for me, but I can't find any 1K models you mentioned that can't be reasonably used in the new codex.


Zoned

Posted By Therion- on 07/16/2007 3:17 PM
My apology to HBMC regarding the lesser daemons with with a generic (and horribly ineffective) statline. I couldn't believe that even a company as poorly managed as GW could go that low.

It appears you have a greater faith in GW that I do. I gave up expecting them to do the right thing a long time ago.

BYE

Posted By Therion- on 07/16/2007 3:17 PM

I think they will stand up to the Nids.

What you're forgetting is that the old IW army didn't always beat Godzilla, and they had everything better than the future Chaos will have. Since the Obliterators lost the heavy bolters, and the army won't be packing 4 Daemonically Possessed Destructors anymore, how did you plan to kill the 70 Spinegaunts that are going to tie up all your heavy guns in CC for the 8 TMCs to smash? I have yet to receive confirmation whether Obliterators also TL Plasma Guns, and that would simply be another nail in their coffin.

IW had the versatility to go from having 20 lascannons to having a few lascannons and an insane amount of heavy bolters. Maybe it was too much, or maybe the opposition just happens to be so tough that it requires such versatility. Either way, Godzilla now dominates.

My apology to HBMC regarding the lesser daemons with with a generic (and horribly ineffective) statline. I couldn't believe that even a company as poorly managed as GW could go that low.

Sure they had more ability to be diverse with HB morphing oblits, but I still think the new rumored Chaos can stand up to Zilla, especially at 1500 points or possibly even 1750.

Sonic Marines became a de-facto troops choice in my eyes.  Smaller squads, not too terrible on rumored points costs, and move and fire guns with decent ROF.  Also because of the large amount of AP2 that 6-9 obltis can put out, cheap-o squads of Raptors w/ Fists and Flamers can do wonders for horde control. 

The DP's can take on the Fex's, the Oblits can shoot down the Flyrant, the troops and raptors can work on the little bugs, and with no vehilces in the list, the Sniper Fex's in heavy (VC+BS) will struggle to earn their points back.

No it's not going to be an easy fight, but fighting Zilla is never easy.  I do think that the new Chaos list will have the tools to deal with them, which is half the battle in that kind of matchup.


....

On another note, anyone notice how the Dark Angels just "reset the bar" in terms of codex creep?  From the readout of it, Chaos > Blood Angels > Dark Angels in terms of power, so are we officially back into "Codex Creep" mode at GW? 

You're of the opinion the BA "codex" is superior to the DA codex? I see them as different. BA has the advantage of the flying wing and speedy Baal. DA has the advantage of Lysander light deathwing/ravenwing with the flying landraider.

I will admit I've not seen either new version play yet.

Posted By jfrazell on 07/17/2007 6:11 AM
You're of the opinion the BA "codex" is superior to the DA codex? I see them as different. BA has the advantage of the flying wing and speedy Baal. DA has the advantage of Lysander light deathwing/ravenwing with the flying landraider.

I will admit I've not seen either new version play yet.

Mephiston > Ezekial
Lemartes > Asmodai (RIP)
Death Company > Company Veterans / Mixed Terminator Squads with one Weapon
Baal Predator > No unique vehicles

The Furioso is useless anyway, so not really an advantage.

The rending Death Companyquinstealers really are a significant advantage. BA pays for them now at least, but DA don't really get access to anything similar.

The Ravenwing is nice for people who like Bikes, but Bikes haven't been a tourney-worthy choice for Marines since, well, ever.

The Master of the Ravenwing bike is pretty expensive. It only carries a fraction of the armament of a Land Raider and lacks the transport capacity.

Really, if you only see BA as having the Baal and Assault Troops then yeah, they'll look about even. I don't think you can ignore Death Company and better characters though.

BA's have a lot going for them over the DA's.

Useful Troops.

Because of Combat Squads, Marines really lack a truely efficient troops options in the DA's. At least with the BA's, you get 5 Man Assault Squads with a PF as a troops choice. Admittedly you wouldn't take this config unless you HAD to, but at least they are useful in the context of the only really good BA army build.

Likewise, the best thing that combat squads did for the Dark Angels, Devastators, are available to the Blood Angels, the opposite thing being that the BA's at least get a somewhat useful troops option while being able to take the good stuff that lies in the rest of the list.

Rending Death Company, with Jump Packs + Chaplain
This is the key of what almost automatically makes the BA's better than the DA's. Feel No Pain Marines with Jump Packs, Rending, and Litanies of Hatred on the charge, with as many attacks as a kitted out genestealer. This unit will hammer things, absorb fire, and generally be a real pain to face against.

Veteran Assault Squads
This is what makes the BA a "good" army. Variable Squad Sizes, lots of attacks, Jump Packs (what the DA lack), multiple CC weapons (read: Fists) and multiple special weapons, all for a minimal increase over the Assault Squads, they contribute to the idea of Jump Pack Swarm overload.

Baal Predators
125 Points gets you an awesome Predator that puts out tons of shots and isn't half bad at putting glances on anything bar the Monolith. Much better than the options the DA have predator wise that's for sure.

Mephiston
A special character worth taking on his own. His all out offensive assault power is probably unrivaled in the world of "Loyalist Space marines". Given that he compliments the best BA army build of lots and lots of jump packers perfectly by not joining a squad and remains untargetable by shooting means that he can get where you need him to be 99.9% of the time and when he hits, he will hurt.

Nothing in the DA Dex has advantages that seriously stack up to this. Likewise, I don't think either the BA's or the DA's can stand up to the stuff that's possible in the new Chaos Dex, or at least in the case of Blood Angels, they are facing an uphill battle.

Mephiston is a non-invulnerable saving chump. He has nice stats, but like the harlequins he is a high cost paper tiger. Too many things can take him out, with hidden power fists and inv save HQ getting a nice beat down on him.

DC and the Vet assault squads are what the BA have over DA, and if you can counter them it is just a dice fest after that. Both lists in action seem to be quite equal so far with both having very different tactics. I do think BA is more forgiving than the DA.

The Baal pred is another paper tiger. It tends to have to go toe to toe with anti-tank weapons with long reach. I tend to see it like most other preds. Hiding and unable to shoot.

Mephiston has no Inv save, but can easily prove to be a useful tool on the field because you can almost always deliver him where you want him with impunity (much like Falcon bound harlies). And against like Falcon bound harlies, Mephiston is extremely useful if you use him right.

See a squad with a power fist? Don't hit it, hit the support squads, or take your chances with Might of Heroes and potentially clear the kill zone. Still with his points cost, I wouldn't use him in games of 1500 points or lower, he's not worth it. Over 1500 and he starts becoming a part of the plan. Heck, just charge him into a heavy support Fex or two Dakka Fex's and he can make his points back easily.

Baals, are probably the best Pred in the game. What you're saying about Preds is true, but it's near always true for any pred save for ones with Demonic Possession (which is getting toned down). Given that Baal's really work well with the Jump Pack army and can draw fire that would otherwise go into the assault squads, and you have something decent to take in heavy. Contrast this to the DA options, and you'll understand that while it may not be the best thing in the game in a heavy slot, it's certainly better than what's available for Dark Angels.

I still will take the las pred over the baal pred. Never had a problem facing them, they are so chancy.

Mephiston is great in the right spot, but like harlequins he can be put in a bad spot quickly. He is not all powerful like some make him out to be, but he has some really great potential, especially against nidzilla. Two very situational units, where as someone like Azrael is more utilitarian.

Ezekial is nothing in comparison sadly. A more useful power and he would be a little better.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 07/17/2007 4:33 AM

On another note, anyone notice how the Dark Angels just "reset the bar" in terms of codex creep?  From the readout of it, Chaos > Blood Angels > Dark Angels in terms of power, so are we officially back into "Codex Creep" mode at GW? 

I guess we will no for sure when the chaos 'dex comes out.

Looking at the relative power levels, it seems to be more a trend of inconsistency than Codex Creep.

Admodai, where are you getting your data?

Or is the graph just an approximation? And if so, are those relative power levels really the consensus?

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 07/16/2007 4:32 AM

I honestly don't think that a Codex devoted entirley to Daemons will be enough to hold people's interests or, for that matter, make whatever new plastic/metal kit they invent fly off the shelves. If it's a Daemon World Codex, as in one that features a lot of the things from the Lost & The Damned list, then yes, but otherwise, it's just a cheap way of advertising a new daemon kit.

QFT.

It's hard to imagine GW would even consider a second Chaos book that wasn't LatD or at very least Daemonworld-based.  But eliminating Bloodletters, Daemonettes, etc. from the CSM codex was pretty hard to imagine too.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 07/17/2007 1:38 PM
Admodai, where are you getting your data?

Or is the graph just an approximation? And if so, are those relative power levels really the consensus?

After carefully considering the viablility of all builds and unit choices in every type of environment, against all other lists and all degrees of skill, I made up some numbers.

Asmodai's graph, for the most part, shows the commonly accepted power levels. But, why is BA lower than BT? Oh and you forgot Tau. They were out after Tyranids.

Posted By stonefox on 07/17/2007 4:19 PM
Asmodai's graph, for the most part, shows the commonly accepted power levels. But, why is BA lower than BT? Oh and you forgot Tau. They were out after Tyranids.

Oops. Forgot about Tau. I'd put them at about the same tier as BT.

As for BT and BA, I've never really seen that much comparison between the two. BT have some point sinks, but keep Las/Plas Squads (and cheaper Landspeeder Tornados).

I'd place Nids a notch above Space Marines, and on the same level as Eldar.