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Posted By Toreador on 06/28/2007 1:17 PM
Some things are worth it at almost any price.

And you have selected specific units, you just made other options more worthwhile in the dex. Everyone now will take min 5 man tac squads and max out on other cheaper options elsewhere in the dex, which you will have to increase in cost accordingly.

It looks to me they are balancing things in the codex. Sometimes it is by removing options...

1. Huh? Landspeeder Tornado - 1000 points. ---- How many do you expect you'll see?

There's a right cost where the selection is neutral with the other alternative selections. That's the right cost. If 2 Assault Cannon Terminators is 'worth almost any price' then maybe the right price point for a squad is 750 points. I doubt it's that extreme though. There's a middle ground where they're equally as worthwhile as Veteran Squads, Tactical Squad or Sniper Scouts for the points (for examples).

2. You balance the whole 'dex, not specific units. I thought rewriting the entire Space Marine Codex to make all the units balanced in points was a tad ambitious for one post. Oh well, guess you can't please everyone. You increase or decrease everything in cost till its points reflect its in-game value. That's the whole point of having points.

3. Maybe, but it's a disappointing approach. I'd rather see them balance things by giving some thought to what's already there and adding cool new options.



Of course, some of the choir here would probably be ecstatic if GW told them to have their Tau army 'counts as' Eldar and talk about how lessening the variety really made the game more balanced and how people were being unreasonable to not be happy about having their Hammerhead 'counts as' a Falcon.

Posted By standgale on 06/28/2007 2:56 PM
And how come space marine armies get different codexes whereas chaos armis don't even get separate lists?

Because the variant space marine armies are very different from each other and can't be covered in a single codex.  For example, Ultramarines have terminators that like to teleport, but Dark Angels have terminators that like to teleport even more!  How can you represent these two radically different approaches to warfare in a single codex?  The answer: you can't!  It's just not possible!

Agree with Abby!

Chaos armies only need a single book because even though Khorne like to fight, and slaanesh likes to have sex, and nurgle likes to puke, and Tzeentch likes to read, all of those things are just different forms of fighting! So they can all easily be represented in the same book.

Before the battle begins, the Chaos people go to the chaos armory, and the armory attendent passes out Icons. But hey, he doesn't care about how he distributes the Icons because its CHAOSY that way, so each squad gets a different Icon, and they shrug and go fight, because they are nihilists.

What we are left with, is Chaos Skittles.

I can't understand why Deathwing and Ravenwing aren't covered each by a specific codex. They are way too different from regular Dark Angels to be in the same book.

I hope SM:Redux codex will have as many variants as there are chapter traits combined, because otherwise so much variety in a single book would be confusing.

On the other hand, Space Marine opponents are just "things" wanting to kill with various devices. Perhaps everything from Eldar to Kroot should be covered by Codex:Enemies. They're all enemies, aren't they?

To add to the above, it's obvious that Chaos doesn't require different books because they no longer have skulls. Remember skulls? Skulls are what made each god different, because the amount of skulls couldn't possibly be represented by the same rules. More skulls = more death, as evidenced by Khorne vs. Nurgle. But now that everyone only has spikes, they're all the same. Also, because Chaos are renegades now, they are more correctly represented by the chapters to whom they were previously loyal. So just use the red marines' rules for the red chaos guys and the green marines' rules for the purple chaos guys (slaanesh is purple and tzeentch is blue right?) since they were originally parts of those chapters anyway so it's more fluffy that way.

I want Codex: Not Marines

And in it, you pay a fixed point cost for a unit, and then roll a d6 to see what that unit is.

1= eldar guardians
2= ork boyz
3= Tau Firewarriors
4= Imperial Guardsmen
5+= Space Marines

Some good work done on this page, gentlemen I salute you!

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 06/29/2007 12:37 AM

Posted By standgale on 06/28/2007 2:56 PM
And how come space marine armies get different codexes whereas chaos armis don't even get separate lists?

Because the variant space marine armies are very different from each other and can't be covered in a single codex.  For example, Ultramarines have terminators that like to teleport, but Dark Angels have terminators that like to teleport even more!  How can you represent these two radically different approaches to warfare in a single codex?  The answer: you can't!  It's just not possible!

I want to be the surrogate father to your children.

I think most of us just gave up and reduced our commitment to chaos .

I should note at first during 3rd edition, Chaos was a reasonable army with some unique units, but slightly boring and tended to invite non fluffy armies. The nurglings in front of the thousand sons who were blocking line of sight to the khorne lord on juggernaut strikes me as one ugly abuse (good tactic though).  As army books were released chaos began to diminish in strength and got really boring and more than a little weak (Tyranids and Eldar as opposing forces walked over the 3rd ed army book), at which time the Chapter Approved Index Asartes articles began to come out.

These articles, which in many ways formed the basis of the 3,5 chaos codex, brought a lot of new life to a really tired codex and gave chaos fans a real reason to play (which Jervis's Chaos book had failed to do) and rebuild sections of thier army. They were a great deal like adding salt and seasonings to a bowl of mashed potatoes (which was what was happening to most chaos armies by that point).  Only one of those first four codexes from 1st edition remained playable until the end of 3rd ed. 40K  and even beyond. (Blood Angels).

When the 3.5 version of chaos was ready for release I can only remember people being excited even before the roumours phase. The direction the game was moving in was to expand the possibilites in game and the hobby aspects out of the game.

Now there is excitement among non chaos players, but I rarely hear chaos players being excited about the changes. Units are being contracted (or eliminated),  options are being removed, in a manner which 40K has not seen since the end of 2nd edition. This is not what excites people about a new book. Indeed it is beginning to look like chaos codexes are similar to star trek movies, only every second one is palatable.

If I may, these are rumors from Warseer once again. There's a whole thread on our favorite bodiless wretches from the Eye:

Thousand Sons

Unit Type: Infantry

Special Rules: Fearless, Slow and Purposeful (not Sorcerer), 4+ Invulnerable save (including the Mark of Tzeentch).

The Sorcerer Commands: The Aspiring Champion who leads the squad is a psyker. If the Aspiring Sorcerer is killed, the Thousand Sons roll a single dice for their Slow and Purposeful movement, unless the squad contains an Independent Character with the Mark of Tzeentch from the beginning of the turn.

Inferno Bolts: The shells fired by the bolters of the Thousand Sons Marines and the Aspiring Sorcerer's pistol are charged with baleful sorcerous energies, against which most mundane armour is no defense. The AP value of their bolt weapons is 3 instead of the normal 5.

Number/Squad
1 Aspiring Sorcerer and 4-19 Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines

Wargear

All:
Power Armour
No grenades!

Aspiring Sorcerer:
Bolt Pistol
Force Weapon

Thousand Sons:
Bolter

Special Rules:
+4 Invulnerable save (including Mark of Tzeentch)
Fearless
Slow and Purposeful
The Sorcerer Commands
Inferno Bolts

Character:
The Aspiring Sorcerer is a psyker and must be given [at least?] one of the following psychic powers:
- Doombolt
- Wind of Chaos
- Gift of Chaos
- Warp Time (caster rerolls hits and/or wounds, possibly only in close combat)
- Bolt of Change (now AP1)

Aspiring sorcerer must take psychic tests. They can use more than one power (possibly limited to two) at a time but can only fire one weapon per turn ( so no wind of chaos & doombolting that mass of conscripts in the same turn)

He may have meltabombs .

Icon:
One model may be given a personal icon.

Transport:
The squad may have a Chaos Rhino dedicated transport

Costs:
Sons cost between 20 and 25 points according to Drek, who seems to know what he's talking about. The sorceror costs "37 points more than a regular thousand son" (I'm betting 60).

Posted By whitedragon on 06/29/2007 6:24 AM
Before the battle begins, the Chaos people go to the chaos armory, and the armory attendent passes out Icons. But hey, he doesn't care about how he distributes the Icons because its CHAOSY that way, so each squad gets a different Icon, and they shrug and go fight, because they are nihilists.

Nihilists!  F*** me.  I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, dude, at least it's an ethos...

Yet more crap I stole from Warseer! Boy howdy will the be mad when they finally catch me. Most of this is from a poster named Drek who seems pretty reliable.

Big release date, according to the French GW site ( fr.games-workshop.com/news/sorties.asp ) is September 19. Army box comes out two weeks before that (Sept. 5).


No one gets drop pods. Icons act like teleport homers, daemons must land near (adjacent?) to one, but they can be used while inside a transport (daemons land within 6" of vehicle is the rumor). Oblits & termines who deep strike within 6" of one don't scatter. Daemons cannot move on the turn that they arrive but can assault.

Abaddon has 5+D6 Attacks at S8, In6.

Lords, Daemon Princes and Sorcerers can buy Wings. (Terminator Armor removes this option from Lords and Sorcs.)
Only Daemon Princes and Abaddon are immune to Instant Death. Daemon Weapons are cheaper for Lords that have purchased Terminator armor.

There is no collar of Khorne but Kharn has an equivalent special ability. There is no anti-psyker wargear in the codex, no collar, no talisman of Tzeetch, no psychic hood.

Possessed come with a single CCW and have no options other then an icon, aspiring champion, and rhino. Cost: 26 pts.

Chosen have 1 base attack, but have the bp + ccw + bolter thing too. They are just Chaos Marines with better leadership and infiltrate. 18 pts.

Terminators can still all be champs. They can upgrade combibolters to combiweapons for +5, PW to PF for +10 and either PW or both weapons to lightning claws for +10 (either way costs the same). Heavy weapon options haven't changed, but reaper autocannons cost 25 pts.

Chaos marines cost the same as loyalists now, but get effective higher Ld and effective A2 (bp + ccw + bolter)
Icon prices vary per listing but are given for the chaos marines below. They are bought for an entire unit, so the more the merrier. Price should be the same for CSMs, chosen, raptors, possessed, and havocs.
Chaos Glory - reroll morale - 10 pts
Khorne - +1 A - 30 pts
Slaanesh - +1 I - 20 - pts
Tzeentch - 5+ invulnerable OR +1 to existing invulnerable, sorcerers can use up to 2 powers a turn - 40 pts
Nurgle - +1 Toughness - 50 pts (!)

Plasma guns go up in cost just like in the DA & BA codices.

Cult troops:
Zerk - WS: 5, S4, I4, A3, furious charge.
Noise Marine - WS4, S4, I5, A2
Plague Marines - WS4, S4, In3, A2.
Thousand Sons - WS4, S4, I4, A1 (no bp + ccw + bolter like the others).
Don't need to buy icons but can have personal icons in the unit for daemon summoning/ deep striking purposes.

Noise marines also have bp + ccw & bolter. Bolter can become a sonic blaster for 5 points, one guy's can be a blastmaster. Champ can replace CCW with fist or PW, can also have meltabombs or AP3 doom siren as wargear (i.e. nothing is replaced for the former).

Plague marines and Thousand sons have the same points cost (between 20 & 25, I'm guessing 23). Plague marines have bp, ccw, & bolter (no more true grit but who cares), I3, and their blight grenades deprive units charging them of the extra attack for charging. Not sure about special weapon options.

Bikes MAY (or may not, according to some sources) have bp + ccw, giving them 2 attacks. Their special weapon options now replace their ccw. Cost: 33 points. One may be upgraded to champion, who can take a power weapon or fist, meltabombs, and plasma pistol.

Raptor champions can take lightning claws.

Defiler can still upgrade weapons to twinlinked lascannon, now 10 points cheaper.

Vindicator can be possessed, dreadnaught cannot.

hilarious

they should have kept the rule where if your lord has a mark then marked units are Troop

meh

The cult marines are in the troops section anyway. So the mark on the lord is no longer mandatory right?

Posted By Toreador on 06/28/2007 12:53 PM
and such is life.

I have hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours of work in a lot of things that are now gone, or in games now defunct. At least with my GW stuff I can still use almost all of it in one way or the other.

How is that a defense? "Life is crap, get over it, don't try to offer any thoughts on how it could be better."

Asmodai has been providing very, very good arguments for list balancing and point values being more intelligently assigned without reducing diversity, and Abby has been making very well observed points about the double standards in 40K.

Whereas yourself and Ozy, while lamenting the repetative *female dog*ing that goes on, have been just as dogged and repetative in your counter arguments as always!

Toreador- "Look on the bright side, things may get better, we shouldn't try to second guess GW, designing army lists is hard."

Ozy- "People who complain about a lack of diversity really mean 'I wanna broken list, Dark Angels is the best list in 40K, people should just suck it up."

 

Sorry, I was working backwards through the thread and getting more and more annoyed by the attitudes until I hit this post, at which point I snapped and posted this.

Its because I really don't see any lack of diversity. All I see are that the broken lists and no brainer options have gone away.

Yes, no more Daemonettes and Bloodletters, only generic daemons. But they were the only daemons worth taking so why bother with anything else? I can still make cult lists and it looks like Nurgle and Tzeentch are better than before, Khorne is roughly the same, and only Slaanesh is less powerful.

Saying our argument is "just as repetitive" doesn't really prove your point either. Sorry I am always positive, I just don't see the point in being the 51st person to say that I don't like the price increases or the vehicle rules so I instead will be the anti-Chicken Little for everyone at Dakka. The sky is NOT falling.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ok, I admit it, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I have a question
:
Wouldn't the codex been a great opportunity to further differentiate loyal marines and their chaotic cousins?
I feel that the chaos codex is more like a "very major divergence" - chapter with some funky guns and units thrown in.

Shrug...don't know how all of you Space Marine and Choas players feel, though.

Ok, ramble on guys!

Greets
Schepp himself

Posted By Schepp himself on 07/09/2007 12:45 PM
Ok, I admit it, I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I have a question
:
Wouldn't the codex been a great opportunity to further differentiate loyal marines and their chaotic cousins?
I feel that the chaos codex is more like a "very major divergence" - chapter with some funky guns and units thrown in.

Shrug...don't know how all of you Space Marine and Choas players feel, though.

Ok, ramble on guys!

Greets
Schepp himself

And thats my big issue. The rumors make the chaos codex feel like marines with the Stomping Lord and +1 toughness divergent traits. Surprisingly, vanilla marines can now do what regular chaos can't (infiltrate, 6 man lascannon/plasma).  This is all rumors of course, but they just seem...meh.

 

 

To me Chaos always played like (or at least seemed like) playing Space Marines with Benefits.

Bout the only thing that Space Marines have now that the current 3.5ed Chaos dex doesn't have is Assault Cannons and drop pods. Granted those are HUGE in terms of in game effectiveness, but they're new to the 4th ed dex and Chaos has similar "options" that are nearly as powerful if not more so.

The new Chaos Dex has the following "competitive" options that Loyalists don't:

Oblits, now x9 for everyone.
Better Predators
More customizability for their tactical, bike, and assault units.
Dedicated troops for Khorne, Slannesh, Tzeench, and Nurgle. 3 of which are actually pretty damn good.
A better HQ setup than Marines can dream to have.

I'm leaving out things like the new gimped but fleeting defiler and Greater/Lesser demons, which are examples of things that Chaos used to have over loyalists, but aren't really good anymore.

Oh and they lost 6 Man Las/Plas. If you're talking about playing from a competitive aspect, I still think that the Chaos list is potentially stronger than the Marine dex, but they can't be shootier than Marines anymore.

9 obits helps make up for the loss of 6 man las/plas (which probably won't survive too much longer w/ SM's).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Funny, just about everything I've heard from the Dev's mouths about a "SM Redux" is that it's not going to happen for a long time, if at all.

The only thing that even put such a concept on the radar was Brimstone on Warseer putting it on the "projected schedule" at the end of 2008, about when DA got hit with the Nerfhammer.

Given that Orks are set for the beginning of 2008, and that there's supposed to be a "Demon Codex" at some point in 2008, the fact that there will be a SM Redux seems less and less likely. Oh and did I mention that every time a developer was asked about SM redux they said they considered it but there were other dex's that needed to be done and that a Redux was a long ways away, if at all?

Don't act like the SM list is going to get toned down anytime soon.

It's not a priority. I think most gamers would rather see Orks and Dark Eldar get updates first. Necrons could use a bit of polish too.

Anyway, if Chaos plays like Marines with Divergeance anyway, maybe they should have just been implemented as a Divergent Trait 'Chaotic' in Codex Space Marines Redux. *Runs away*

Posted By Ozymandias on 07/09/2007 11:46 AM
Its because I really don't see any lack of diversity. All I see are that the broken lists and no brainer options have gone away.

Really?  That's all you see?  You don't see the complete absence of sorcerer chosen, rubric terminators, noise marine havocs, noise marine bikers?  You don't see 4 armies being reduced to unit entries and another 4 being eliminated completely?  You don't see 13 different types of daemons being dumbed down into 2?  You don't see how this might not promote diversity?  Maybe you're not looking hard enough.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 07/09/2007 3:20 PM
Funny, just about everything I've heard from the Dev's mouths about a "SM Redux" is that it's not going to happen for a long time, if at all.

The only thing that even put such a concept on the radar was Brimstone on Warseer putting it on the "projected schedule" at the end of 2008, about when DA got hit with the Nerfhammer.

Given that Orks are set for the beginning of 2008, and that there's supposed to be a "Demon Codex" at some point in 2008, the fact that there will be a SM Redux seems less and less likely. Oh and did I mention that every time a developer was asked about SM redux they said they considered it but there were other dex's that needed to be done and that a Redux was a long ways away, if at all?

Don't act like the SM list is going to get toned down anytime soon.

Exactly.

Abby,

You missed the gain of Nurgle marked havocs, bikers, marked raptors, and all of the other things that are new. And when you lose a no-brainer option, or an option that is terrible, you haven't really lost anything.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 07/10/2007 8:36 AM
Abby,

You missed the gain of Nurgle marked havocs, bikers, marked raptors, and all of the other things that are new. And when you lose a no-brainer option, or an option that is terrible, you haven't really lost anything.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Most daemons weren't no brainers or terrible.

Noise Marine havocs were a reasonable choice and very expensive option to assemble.

Sorry but you are wrong. People are concentrating on what were very expensive models they bought  being rendered worthless.  This is a rather expenisve hobby and removing options (or making them so terrible that they are unworthy of consideration is going to p*** off people. Telling people that they haven't just lost the time and effort they put into some wonderful conversions just makes them more angry, and when you platy in a WYSIWyG environment counts as doesn't cut any mustard.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 07/09/2007 3:20 PM
Funny, just about everything I've heard from the Dev's mouths about a "SM Redux" is that it's not going to happen for a long time, if at all.

See we've been getting mixed signals on that.  JJ says that the studio believes the SM codex is a failure at bringing new gamers into the hobby yet they aren't planning on redoing it for a long time, if at all? 

That doesn't pass the sniff test with me.

Also, we have heard talk that the studio is debating about whether or not a new SM codex would be Codex: Ultramarines (i.e. Codex: Codex Marines), or Codex: Space Marines (i.e. with traits and the like).  That also doesn't gel with the above.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozy- the fact is that not everyone took Daemonettes/Bloodletters. I used Plague Bearers, and I really enjoyed doing so. So it was not a "no-brainer" option.
So what I have lost is characterful rules for my daemons. I really hope that you will at least be able to give a chaos mark to daemon units, as it would at least go some way toward differentiating them.

As for being the anti chicken little, you really are being a bit insulting towards the rest of Dakka Dakka. I know myself that I judge each piece of news by itself, and decide whether I am happy or unhappy based on the news. I don't just engage autowhinge mode and start giving out. I am inclined toward pessimism where 40K is concerned, because I think the game has been getting steadily worse over the years, and as an Ork player I feel pretty hard done by.
If you are annoyed about something, do you really stay quiet, just so you won't be like the rest of us? That is a bit sad, to my mind.

It seems strange to me that an avid dark angels player would not understand the desire for characterful rules amongst other factions- you play a faction which has been excellently provided with it's own codex, it's own models and the support of the best supported range in 40K. But from my point of veiw, couldn't you have just represented all that with the vanilla marine codex? Why have a seperate book for a codex chapter, and then reduce diversity for chaos? Do you see the double standard, and why it causes so much consternation?

(And, on a more personally "I am really *fudge*ing sick of this gak GW" note, why oh why have more space marine armies when other armies are in dire need of attention, and have massively unfinished ranges?)

Da Boss,

I do agree that I hope that the generic daemons will be able to be marked and get some sort of bonus. That would make sense and go back to the way that daemons used to be. I do think though that your Death Guard army will be more effective and just as characterful as it was before.

This is what I have been seeing in this and other threads:

"I said it in another thread, but I'll repeat it here:
Hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours of work have been relegated to the "counts as" category. I have literally dozens of models who are not WYSIWYG under the new codex. My creativity in conversion and army selection has been "rewarded" by complete invalidation of my collection." (emphasis mine)

Creativity should not be in the rules in my opinion. What did people do during Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed??

I'm sorry, but there is a lot of chicken-littling going on in this thread and in the other Chaos rumors threads. Despite the fact that the studio has said that they are releasing a Daemon codex next year (which will give you back your daemons, cultists, and other things). Plus, with the BA codex in WD, why don't you think we'll see Legion specific rules in the future. The reason they were able to do the BA codex in WD was that the groundwork was already done w/ Codex: DA.

And finally, I would have been happy if they had included rules to represent Dark Angels in C:SM. It would have been much better than using the crappy 3rd Ed codex for 2 years. Though I will say again that DA had their own codex (shared with BA) before Chaos had theirs. .

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Just to follow-up with what efarrer talks about that is so important. What differentiates GW games and especially 40k in the past is that for the most part rules and list building options enabled players to create a wide and diverse range of models to fit in with what the list let you build. Kind of like giving a gamer a palette of 250 colors and letting them go to town with what they could build.

This is a dangerous path GW is treading. If they are looking to "separate" themselves from the competition like what Apocalypse is supposed to demonstrate, then taking this path is the wrong one.

With the new Codex's and the list building strategies of the game designers/bean counters you get a palette of 20 colors to work with. I could do this with most other game systems out there.  Why play 40k when they are going to make my investment worthless by restricting and even eliminating units and armies that ALOT of blood, sweat and tears have been poured into?

I feel that as a veteran hobbyist, it is more about taking one of two paths 1) Buy new models that only have options you will find in the new kits 2) Feel like an idiot and run most of your current army as "COUNTS AS" in order to make usable. 2 out of 3 of my primary armies are Chaos based and while I can make them work, the fact that I have to 'make them work' is a slowed concept.

While there are a few new options that are nice to see and somewhat useful, in my eyes most of it just an attempt to turn vanilla ice cream into chocolate and strawberry. When you go from Ben & Jerry flavors to this selection of flavors, it pretty hard to stomach.

REMEMBER:
40k Complexity Level (40kCL) = GIQJJ (gamer IQ of 'Jack' - Jervis Johnson Son)