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Posted By Therion- on 07/17/2007 7:51 PM
I'd place Nids a notch above Space Marines, and on the same level as Eldar.

So where would you place Tau? 

Hey,

Posted By stonefox on 07/17/2007 8:16 PM

Posted By Therion- on 07/17/2007 7:51 PM
I'd place Nids a notch above Space Marines, and on the same level as Eldar.

So where would you place Tau?

Wait for it . . .


Playa

Thousand Sons:

...

-The only CSMs (cult or otherwise) that come with an Aspiring (you have to pay for him tho)

So no Aspiring Champs for normal marines or other cults? Or do you just mean the champ is included in the squad already?

Posted By stonefox on 07/17/2007 8:16 PM

Posted By Therion- on 07/17/2007 7:51 PM
I'd place Nids a notch above Space Marines, and on the same level as Eldar.

So where would you place Tau? 

I wouldn't place them. It's pretty pointless to rate scrub armies. It's sufficient to say that Nids and Eldar are a notch higher than Space Marines and Chaos.

scrub army?

forgive my knowledge of dakka speak. it's been a long time since i've read this board.

the Tau are far from Scrubs, Mech Tau are very powerful, and have made a good showing of themselves in tournaments. And what kind of comparison would it be if you didnt have all armies up for comparison? the enitre thing would be rather pointless.

I would place Nids above marines also.

I would still like to see two good players go head to head with marines vs nidzilla. It just seems on paper that the marines "should" be able to handle them with the amount of rending and powerfist attacks they can field. Sadly we can't come up with a nidzilla player around here.

I have seen it MANY times, and the marines usually get tooled. I have seen chaos vs Nidzilla a ton of times too, and chaos gets punked more often than not also. I have one buddy who plays chaos with a pretty optimised list that says he has figured out how to beat Nidzillas, but i have not personally seen him do it, although i dont doubt he's telling the truth.

Eldar is the only army i have seen go rounds with Nidzillas and come out ahead as much or more than the big guys.

I have seen the opposite were 3/4 times bugs beat three Falcon lists. I actually shelved my bugs after beating Falcon lists consistantly because I felt the list if done right can be ran effectively even with newer players. One Falcon list player was undefeated and definatley knew his list and tactics.

Posted By Asmodai on 07/17/2007 1:49 PM

Posted By bigchris1313 on 07/17/2007 1:38 PM
Admodai, where are you getting your data?

Or is the graph just an approximation? And if so, are those relative power levels really the consensus?

After carefully considering the viablility of all builds and unit choices in every type of environment, against all other lists and all degrees of skill, I made up some numbers.

- sigged

Posted By gorgon on 07/17/2007 1:40 PM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 07/16/2007 4:32 AM

I honestly don't think that a Codex devoted entirley to Daemons will be enough to hold people's interests or, for that matter, make whatever new plastic/metal kit they invent fly off the shelves. If it's a Daemon World Codex, as in one that features a lot of the things from the Lost & The Damned list, then yes, but otherwise, it's just a cheap way of advertising a new daemon kit.

QFT.

It's hard to imagine GW would even consider a second Chaos book that wasn't LatD or at very least Daemonworld-based.  But eliminating Bloodletters, Daemonettes, etc. from the CSM codex was pretty hard to imagine too.

Well, that depends on whether they decide to release cultist/mutant models.  No models, no rules.  That's how it goes.  I can certainly see them just throwing out an all-daemon codex to squeeze some extra sales out of the plastic daemons.  It's an obvious ploy to get 2 armies worth of sales (40k daemon codex + WHFB Chaos armybook) out of a single model line.

Posted By Playa on 07/17/2007 8:22 PM
Hey,

Posted By stonefox on 07/17/2007 8:16 PM

Posted By Therion- on 07/17/2007 7:51 PM
I'd place Nids a notch above Space Marines, and on the same level as Eldar.

So where would you place Tau?

Wait for it . . . 

In my opponent's "strategic assets"!!  *Badum-ching!*

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 07/18/2007 3:49 PM
Well, that depends on whether they decide to release cultist/mutant models.  No models, no rules.  That's how it goes.  I can certainly see them just throwing out an all-daemon codex to squeeze some extra sales out of the plastic daemons.  It's an obvious ploy to get 2 armies worth of sales (40k daemon codex + WHFB Chaos armybook) out of a single model line.

Releasing actual mutant models would be cheating. I like it when they have "make it up yourself" kits like they did with the mutant bags which were what? - zombies and catachans? Maybe a chaos marine mutation sprue or maybe I got mine from elsewhere. That was great fun.
I am jealous of the cool demon options in WH Fantasy though. Sigh, if only we could afford another couple of armies and a rule book.

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 07/18/2007 3:49 PM
Well, that depends on whether they decide to release cultist/mutant models.  No models, no rules.  That's how it goes. 

You're kidding right?  There are plenty of examples of units with rules with no models.  I guess Drop Pods don't really have rules because there are no models released for them.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 07/18/2007 8:48 PM
You're kidding right?  There are plenty of examples of units with rules with no models.  I guess Drop Pods don't really have rules because there are no models released for them.

Don't be obtuse Ozy. GW have stated that they are not going to produce armies that don't have models. This is the reason why armies like Kroot Mercs, LatD and Feral Orks will not exist in the future - they have no model support. Most of the models have to be converted.

And a model does exist for the Drop Pod...

BYE

Forge World makes a Drop Pod and FW has their own rules for Drop Pods that are different from the rules in C:SM. If that counted as a model then all of the proxies in every GT would be illegal.

And GW said that every new codex and army would be fully supported. I don't think that means that every single unit choice is definitely going to have a model range released. I could totally see them re-releasing the mutant sprues that standgale mentioned.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

H.B.M.C you aren't exactly correct about that. What they said all main army books will be supported, and so adding a new race/book to the list will be rare. Anything else they put out won't be fully supported. So they can still have sub-lists and off the wall things, but they won't necessarily be supported by miniatures from GW.

I'm siding with Toreador here. Come on guys, haven't you joined in enough RAW arguments to know that this could possibly be what GW meant? Since GW loves making vague/awkward rules at times, but also insist that you follow RAW, this could just be another incarnation of that policy.

I can't wait for the disgusting overabundance of [demon-abusing, veteran-skill spamming] Chaos generals to start whining like the little kiddies they are and selling off their armies after the new release; and finally being forced to try something new beyond simply letting their 180-pt demon prince and infiltrating Greater Demon (or their 4 Heavies) own the other player for them...

It's happened to Eldar and DA...you just wait...

Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/20/2007 9:53 AM

I can't wait for the justified legions of [people who spent a lot of time and money building armies that GW's rules (whether or not they were playtested enough!) allowed them to build] Chaos generals to start whining like the upset customers they are having their forces rendered useless after the new release; and again being forced to buy additional models to make their forces legal to field again... Even if it is in a form they have no interest in playing (Renegades - Whee!)...

I helped you out a little there...

If only someone would put their bloodletter on ebay I'd be ok with that.

Dude....

seriously, you will be happy when people's armies get invalidated? GW *fudge*ed up by allowing the armies to be made in the first place. If you lay down a collection of bee bee guns and a machine gun and one guy chooses to use with the machine gun and hoses everyone else, you cant fault him for it. Would it make you happy if everyone took crappy lists that were easy to beat? Everyone plays in their own way, all equally valid so long as they are allowed within the rules.

If they limit TMC's to 3 per army or something similar, will you be happy at the loss all the Nidzilla player's have to go through? That is lame.

And, the Eldar and the DA are not even remotely close ot one another, the Eldar are FAR superior. Yes they got changed, but they still kick ass. The DA's got changed, but they are now an inferior list.

Posted By Reecius on 07/20/2007 1:35 PM

I can't wait for the disgusting overabundance of [demon-abusing, veteran-skill spamming] Chaos generals to start whining like the little kiddies they are and selling off their armies after the new release; and finally being forced to try something new beyond simply letting their 180-pt demon prince and infiltrating Greater Demon (or their 4 Heavies) own the other player for them...
It's happened to Eldar and DA...you just wait...

Dude....

seriously, you will be happy when people's armies get invalidated? GW *fudge*ed up by allowing the armies to be made in the first place. If you lay down a collection of bee bee guns and a machine gun and one guy chooses to use with the machine gun and hoses everyone else, you cant fault him for it. Would it make you happy if everyone took crappy lists that were easy to beat? Everyone plays in their own way, all equally valid so long as they are allowed within the rules.

If they limit TMC's to 3 per army or something similar, will you be happy at the loss all the Nidzilla player's have to go through? That is lame.

And, the Eldar and the DA are not even remotely close ot one another, the Eldar are FAR superior. Yes they got changed, but they still kick ass. The DA's got changed, but they are now an inferior list.

I believe you meant "When they limi TMC's to 3 per army"t

Posted By Reecius on 07/20/2007 1:35 PM

I can't wait for the disgusting overabundance of [demon-abusing, veteran-skill spamming] Chaos generals to start whining like the little kiddies they are and selling off their armies after the new release; and finally being forced to try something new beyond simply letting their 180-pt demon prince and infiltrating Greater Demon (or their 4 Heavies) own the other player for them...
It's happened to Eldar and DA...you just wait...

Dude....

seriously, you will be happy when people's armies get invalidated? GW *fudge*ed up by allowing the armies to be made in the first place. If you lay down a collection of bee bee guns and a machine gun and one guy chooses to use with the machine gun and hoses everyone else, you cant fault him for it. Would it make you happy if everyone took crappy lists that were easy to beat? Everyone plays in their own way, all equally valid so long as they are allowed within the rules.

If they limit TMC's to 3 per army or something similar, will you be happy at the loss all the Nidzilla player's have to go through? That is lame.

And, the Eldar and the DA are not even remotely close ot one another, the Eldar are FAR superior. Yes they got changed, but they still kick ass. The DA's got changed, but they are now an inferior list.

I'd rather see the game and all the main lists be reasonably balanced, if that means some peoples armies get hosed then tough. Someone may have goofed up and created the situation in the first place but that is no excuse for not fixing it.  If nids got limited to 3 tmcs I wouldn't be 'happy' at other players armies being invalidated, More accurately I wouldn't care as long as the result was a better codex (not that i have an issue with more than 3tmcs by the way, I'm just using the same example).

Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/20/2007 9:53 AM

I can't wait for the disgusting overabundance of [demon-abusing, veteran-skill spamming] Chaos generals to start whining like the little kiddies they are and selling off their armies after the new release; and finally being forced to try something new beyond simply letting their 180-pt demon prince and infiltrating Greater Demon (or their 4 Heavies) own the other player for them...

It's happened to Eldar and DA...you just wait...

I'm trying not to get banned here, but I have to ask:

Are you really that stupid Ellios?

You're happy because there are Chaos players who's entire armies are invalidated? You really think that it's just 'trying something new'. You feel comfortable picking on a few people who abused the Chaos 'Dex compared to the overwhelming massive majority of people who played the army legitimately and are being shafted because their carefully constructed Night Lords, or Death Guard or, dare I say it, Iron Warrior armies are being invalidated?

Or those of us, such as myself, who spent a lot of time, money and effort into making a Lost & The Damned army only to see the army removed from the game?

I 'spose I should just stop being a whiny little kiddy and 'try something new'. Is that it?

Screw you.

I've been playing this game way to long to have some moron tell me that I'm whining because my army's been invalidated.

BYE

In my opinion the Chaos Codex revision is a mixed bag.

The facts:

The previous C:CSM was hideously overpowered and completely flawed in design. It had a couple of ambiguous rules and a ton of exploitable ones and everything went from bad to worse when Pete Haines made the FAQ for the C:CSM making psychic powers etc not count for the wargear cap. Never in the history of 40K or FB has there been an army book as imbalanced and overpowered as this book, so making a new one was top priority.

Each time a new army book or codex is coming out, everybody talks how they're going to make an army out of it, but the only time I've ever seen everyone actually doing it, was with C:CSM. It was that good, and it kept proving it tournament after tournament. Take a daemonbomb or siren princes or the oblits&preds and you've got a great chance of winning a GT. I did that too. Siren had to be removed (and it was), Obliterators had to be nerfed (and they were), and daemonic possession had to be balanced (and it was), and the daemons were changed altogether. In my opinion regarding the main issues the book is a massive success on all accounts as all of the armies that were ruining the 40K scene were removed from the game. A vast majority of the models in the above armies can be used to make a reasonable army in the new book.

GW did the same regarding Eldar, so although people might think differently GW does pay attention to what's going on at gladiator tournaments and other GTs. If a variant of an army is so popular that you see one third of the top 50 playing it year after year, something must be wrong and has to be fixed.

Now what I usually disagree with is what they give the players as replacements. I whined and moaned about the Eldar not because I couldn't play with my 18 strong Seer Council anymore, but because the revision was a great chance to make a balanced book where all the units are worth considering. That potential was squandered and instead the shift of power went all too clearly from infantry based armies to swordwinds and the book is within itself totally imbalanced, every force organisation slot having a unit that completely outshines all the rest.

I thought GW would allow 9 Obliterators still to be fielded, and they did. This is a nice choice that doesn't directly invalidate the armies of IW players who have liked to abuse the most underpriced unit in the game to win tournaments. As far as Death Guard and Thousand Sons and whatnot are concerned, I've never actually seen anyone play these armies. A couple of my friends who own these cult armies never actually play them in tournaments, and they are most definately not very offended that their armies are changing altogether.

As far as LatD is concerned, it's a shame it doesn't have proper rules. I do think that rules for LatD don't belong in C:CSM and should be included in another codex about Chaos cults, daemons or daemonworld armies. Maybe we'll yet get that book. No offence to HBMC who I feel for, but I can't really see why you're surprised or even angry that LatD didn't have rules for it in C:CSM. The rules were included in a campaign booklet in the first place, and it's not like we've seen any new versions of those wacky Space Wolf guys or Ulthwé Strike Forces either. GW has consistently shown a tendency to think of armies in campaign booklets as campaign armies -- Something that won't be in the game for long. They followed this same principle regarding Warhammer Armies: Storm of Chaos when they chose not to allow the book to be used at their own GT.

It remains to be seen if C:CSM allows some new serious types of power armies to be built a'lá C:Eldar, but all in all I'm not too disappointed. The minimum requirements for the revision have been fulfilled atleast, and as far as the tournament scene is concerned change is a good thing. Now postpone those Orks and make a new C:Tyranids.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 07/22/2007 4:59 AM
I'm trying not to get banned here, but I have to ask:

Are you really that stupid Ellios?

Or those of us, such as myself, who spent a lot of time, money and effort into making a Lost & The Damned army only to see the army removed from the game?

I 'spose I should just stop being a whiny little kiddy and 'try something new'. Is that it?

Screw you.

I've been playing this game way to long to have some moron tell me that I'm whining because my army's been invalidated.

BYE

Hmmm...sounds an awful lot like the whining I've heard from the last two Codex releases...

Yep...almost exactly the same!

Look, you and I and anyone who's been playing this game for more than 1/2 a decade knows that the current (and previous) Codex: Chaos(es) consistently appear at the top of the tourney ladder, are consistently abused more than any other army list, and have perhaps the highest number of obviously mis-costed and/or blatantly broken units/abilities in this game. I won't be the least bit sorry to see it go. No, I can't wait for the "machine gun" (to use someone else's analogy) to be removed from the "first come first served" armory of the 40k Codexes.

To sum up my feelings in short; "Join the club." No amount of whining on anyone's part here is going to change anything GW does. Plus, why do you care? Make a "Revisited" C:LatD...

Uhm, no. Some of us have decided to get off the ride and not play anymore. The chaos codex and its direction are pretty much that tipping point. While I was lucky, I never did get into a chaos army, I'm pretty much watching several club members lose an army in some shape or form, lets see:

night lords
alpha legion
WE
TS
DG
LatD nurgle
IW


In favor, as GW put it, of non-foundning chaos renegardes......

Uhm, no. This is pretty much GW's ultimate FU. Chaos, its basic foundation, is from the first founders. Yeah there are renegades, but COME ON, you cant have chaos without the orginals.....

Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/23/2007 4:17 AM

Hmmm...sounds an awful lot like the whining I've heard from the last two Codex releases...

Yep...almost exactly the same!

Look, you and I and anyone who's been playing this game for more than 1/2 a decade knows that the current (and previous) Codex: Chaos(es) consistently appear at the top of the tourney ladder, are consistently abused more than any other army list, and have perhaps the highest number of obviously mis-costed and/or blatantly broken units/abilities in this game. I won't be the least bit sorry to see it go. No, I can't wait for the "machine gun" (to use someone else's analogy) to be removed from the "first come first served" armory of the 40k Codexes.

To sum up my feelings in short; "Join the club." No amount of whining on anyone's part here is going to change anything GW does. Plus, why do you care? Make a "Revisited" C:LatD...

You mean the Dark Angels (who suck) and the Eldar who lost many expensive options (seer council, Court of the Young King and had some options made near worthless such as the Viper).

Every army should be near the top of the ladder. There are less than 10 factions all told. No army should be as far down as say witchhunters. That said the optimum way to balance things is not being done. All books should be released within a short span, not this dribbling half drunken pee that GW is taking against the wall of balance. The Eldar book written in 2006 as part of the old power curve is far  superior to DArk Angels Blood Angels and by now rmours have revealed enough to say far superior to Chaos. 40K has returned to where I started playing. Eldar will be the top tournament choice as soon as a weakened nid codex is done.

As to me... Uraban War, Confrontation and LOTR are calling.

WOah.. hold on here. Dark Angels don't suck, they just have a problem competing with certain powerful builds of other lists (zilla, mech eldar, daemon bomb), which is a problem with a lot of armies in the current incarnation. Even min/max marines have issues, so why would DA be any better? They are underpowered compared to most power lists. If this is the level they are shooting for, I have hope. It's a nice fun list.

Court of the Young king was bad, in game and in rules questions, no great loss. Everything can still be used. Viper is still damn good, beating out the warwalker in speed and survivability while being very cheap when outfitted with two shuriken cannnon.

And has been stated time and time again, the falcon is the major problem with the eldar list being powerful. The rest of the list is a very good, and rather balanced list. With a single falcon in the list, it is usually a very competitive game with my DA. Anything more and it's just a points denial game that I can't win.

Time is the only thing that will tell. This is the first step in the world of Chaos. They keep saying that they want to revisit the legions and that is all based on the bean counters I would bet.

Reign in a few codexes, come out with a few more Chaos books, and release a new Ork list and the game would be worlds better. It's not really that far off if they choose to do it.

UW and Confrontation will both be dead in the near future, with maybe UW redoing itself again...