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Problem is the previous codex had numerous ways to make a competative army. Now there's like 1 basic build: 2 princes, 1ksons or dg in troops, spread remaining points in the cost effective stuff.

Posted By efarrer on 07/26/2007 8:30 AM
You are aware that the movement of immobilised to 5 reduces the odds of Falcon destruction considerably, right.

Forgive me, but I don't understand.  You have the same odds of rolling a '4' as rolling a '5'.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Oh...facts...um; right...I forgot about those... :S

"Statistics" don't prove a thing. I've stated why, but those who can't see the forest for the trees are beyond persuasion, so they'll just keep spouting the same nonsense...

As far as "playing a different game," yeah, I guess I do. People around here don't complain about a tri-falcon list, because they are expecting it. It's part of our metagame. But I play with cutthroat-competitive people...so meh.

As I've said...tri-Falcon is a tough list, but not unbeatable (and no, I'm not including the proverbial "getting lucky" in that "not unbeatable" phrase). There are plenty of ways to insure yourself against tri-Falcon, and plenty of ways to minimize the damage. It will be a tough game, but the list isn't unbeatable or particularly overpowered. Zilla is more consistent.

I think his point being that as the relevant wargear allows you to discard the lower result of two dice, then it does make a difference?

Given Holofileds (take lower of two results):

3rd ed rules: Immobilized or destroyed occurs on the following combinations:
4-5, 5-4, 4-6, 6-4, 6-6, 4-4

4th ed rules:
5-6, 6-5, 6-6, 5-5

So, it went from 6 (out of 36) possibilities, to 4/36 (and doesn't reflect the impact of Vectored Engines).

*edit: For some reason, I always mentally block out dual-immobilized results.  Numbers corrected.

As do I. That is the main reason I know for a fact that the statistics back up the theory. What other tank takes that amount of hits to die? What other tank is competitive with the falcon? Fact is, the mech falcon list is very very good. As the year goes on and more tourny results come back, we will look at the proof and discuss again.

And as the only person defending the falcon, it looks like you are in the minority. I guess we must all be wrong then

Maybe the 9 oblit list that people keep saying will be standard after the new list comes out, will be competitive.... but what were the statistics on that one again?

Ellios, you get an A for being stuborn, that is for sure.



No you have not. You have offered not one shred of evidence as to why.



With all your whinning about Chaos, it sure as hell sounds like you DONT play with any cut throat players.



Please illuminate us then. I for one, am dying to hear how to so easily vanquish the tri falcon list. Details please, because i am dense and require an in depth explanation to wrap my mind around things.

Posted By Reecius on 07/27/2007 10:50 AM

Please illuminate us then. I for one, am dying to hear how to so easily vanquish the tri falcon list. Details please, because i am dense and require an in depth explanation to wrap my mind around things.

Cheat. It's the only sure method.

Ps. Please note this is not actaully advocating cheating... just expressing my frustration with the joker who thinks Falcons aren't that tough, and that stats aren't important.

Thanks Janthkin. Eldar players are pretty rare in my neck of the woods (rare = 0 players) so I'm a bit fuzzy towards holo-field rules.

Actually, here in SLO-town we recently had a RT and not one SM or Eldar player showed up! We did have one World Eaters army, but it was pretty light weight.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

do you mean SLO like San Luis Obispo, CA? I used to live and game there. If so, small world.

Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/27/2007 10:22 AM

"Statistics" don't prove a thing. I've stated why, but those who can't see the forest for the trees are beyond persuasion, so they'll just keep spouting the same nonsense...

It's a game involving dice Ellios. Probability and statistics will always come into it play. You'd either have to be mindcrushingly stupid or soul-destroyingly ignorant not to realise that.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 07/27/2007 8:10 PM

Posted By ColonelEllios on 07/27/2007 10:22 AM

"Statistics" don't prove a thing. I've stated why, but those who can't see the forest for the trees are beyond persuasion, so they'll just keep spouting the same nonsense...

It's a game involving dice Ellios. Probability and statistics will always come into it play. You'd either have to be mindcrushingly stupid or soul-destroyingly ignorant not to realise that.

BYE

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Posted By Reecius on 07/27/2007 3:57 PM
do you mean SLO like San Luis Obispo, CA? I used to live and game there. If so, small world.

Yep, and the RT I mentioned was at PolyCon.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 07/28/2007 8:49 AM

Posted By Reecius on 07/27/2007 3:57 PM
do you mean SLO like San Luis Obispo, CA? I used to live and game there. If so, small world.

Yep, and the RT I mentioned was at PolyCon.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I miss living in Santa Barbara.

And my Khorne terminators and bloodletters miss existing.

I don't think this list looks all too crippled.  Certain things, like daemons, just make me sad - and will pretty much no longer be a part of my army.  Lower points cost just doesn't make up for not being too effective, though they may have a use.  Honestly I'd much rather be throwing them at things like howling banshees and harlequinns than my normal troops.  And the complete lack of cavalry altogether makes me cry.

Loss of +1A on chaos bikes is another big hit - now we have marine bikers, whee.

The cult troops are, I think special enough to not be "marines with a mark", and seem to have even more abilities than before.  Slaanesh can now hold their own in cc while making an even more formidable shooting force, and chaos lords don't seem to be much weaker. 

Raptors with marks, though.... hmmm.  Gotta look into that, and is something going to bump terminators over 30 points besides the mark and aspiring champion status, or will they seriously be that cheap?

A lot of my opinion on the new codex rests on how much the new troops COST, points-wise, and I'll hold most comments until then - but yeah Daemons:  ruined Bikes:  Marine bikes + mark  Raptors:  Assault marines + mark.

 

-Spellbound

With power fists, I think they'll be 40.

Whaa? Noice marines becaome worse in cc (no more gifts for the champ) and basic Noice marine with sonic blaster is rumored to be 1 point more. They also lose vet skills (bad for both CC and shooting) and their rending strippers of doom are no more. All they gained is an AP3 flamer (rmuored 15-20 points), AP3 on heavy blastmaster shot (rumored, also to be 2x cost) and presumbaly the use of bp/ccw ontop of sonic blasters. I don't see that as adding up but maybe I'm in the minority. Now if you wanna count the new marked stuff, then sure slaanesh raptors are a nice addition. But then you gotta figure they now lost the noise marine havocs, sonic blaster toting bikes and the sonic weapon loadouts for their terminators.

I do have a wait and see attitude but I tend to agree with the general consensus that Slaansesh lost out big in the new dex.

THANKS a L.O.T TheEndIsHere and others

THIS THREAD IS ONE YEAR OLD.......

Mod's lock please.

Thanks WD

By the Powers invested in me by Yakface, master and Space and Time, I terminate this thread with extreme prejudice