Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lootas have their place, but Flash Gits are pure rubbish. A unit of guys that cost 5 times what a Ork Boy does, has a one or two shot S5 gun with a random AP,  takes up a heavy slot (WTF?), and only hits on 5's? Sorry, I think I'll pass.

Yeah, Storm Boyz can die pretty easily, but they're now the fastest damn non-vehicle unit in the game, which is nice for a CC unit. Not to mention that they're also dirt cheap. I don't know what isn't to like about these guys. Sure bikes have a better save, but are WAY more expensive and will run like hell once you kill just a few bikes. Think I'll pass on those.

Posted By uatu13 on 10/31/2007 9:16 PM

Second, Snikrott is just OK. Sure, you get to come in on any board edge, but you already have to have a Commando unit, which aren't that great (3 points more for an Ork boy that has MTC only, and they lose their infiltrate with Snikrott's reserve ability). Snikrott himself is sort of worthless, he's just a guy with a few attacks that reroll to hit. He doesn't have a power claw, so he can't pick off vehicles, and 2 rokkit launchers is hardly a guaranteed kill against most vehicles, especially with Orks BS. Not only this, but once they show up (which is random and could be so late in the game it doesn't matter) they're just another foot slogging unit of guys, where, on the other hand Storm Boyz can pretty much guarantee to get in CC by turn 2, can take a power klaw, and once they get done with their CC they're still highly mobile.

You're missing the point.

60 HtH attacks that you dont even have to think about how they are going to get there.  Its totally disruptive to tau gunlines...even mech if they get out of their vehicles with a fish tactic, to guard gunlines,  you could charge sentinals or warwalkers to tie them up from shooting masses of advancing orks, dev marines are stopped in thier tracks, rear charges on tanks that MUST die....how is this unit not great?  I cant think of an army that is going to be unconcerned about 15 orks charging them from the rear.  Even Necrons, you wouldnt hurt many, but you could possibly stop MULTIPLE units from firing for a turn....or more if you're lucky.  This gives you time to get your powerclaws up before the necrons gauss the hell out of you with two full immortal squads.  Now they're stuck in hth if you do the assault correctly to minimise casualties on your side.

If someone has a static shooting army, this unit can spread its 15 across the enemy deployment zone and engage MULTIPLE units with a good chance of still winning the massive combat.  This unit would WIN THE GAME FOR YOU WITH A MASSACRE and the rest of your army is drinking beer in your deployment zone if your enemy is an infantry based guard army. Space wolf scouts have the same ability, but can only get units of 5, and they are TERRIBLY disruptive to enemy plans.  Just because a unit doenst have a Nob with a Power Klaw in it doesnt mean its "Just O.K."  This unit helps the rest of your footsloggers engage in hand to hand combat unscathed.  The unit is totally awesome, perhaps not for its killing ability, but its tactical value is obvious....and HUGE.

I agree with Deadshane.

To have Snikrott's unit rampaging through your army seems like a bad thing.

A proper Mech Tau army (that is, with a Devilfish or two) is able to build a skimmer castle that houses their entire army and prevents those inside from getting charged. It'd be pretty boring having to kill any tank-killers while shooting at all the poor orks who can't take down a skimmer, but you can still move your entire army over by loading up your firewarriors and scooting jet infantry and tanks 12". If you have 11 suits and no broadsides, 4-5 skimmers can easily hide that inside a circle.

Like I said before, it does sound like the Ork codex can be a very nice metagame spoiling army, with the Mech Tau keeping it in check. Only problem is that it requires gamers to start Ork armies.

Wait a sec, how would the skimmer castle work?

Skimmers block movement, but not LoS, right?

This is why Lootas are so important. Building a Skimmer Castle means your tanks are in LOS. And once the tanks are in LOS they're going to eat shots from Loota Mobz 48" away in cover. Those tanks will go down.

The Tankbustas rule is not badly written as in unclear. They obviously intended that the unit be vulnerable to wasting their round if the enemy tanks are far away, the clause "Regardless of range" is a dead giveaway.

As for crippling their effectiveness....Eh. I don't think they are particularly crippled.

These are the criteria that cause them to lose their attacks:

1. Vehicle in LOS
2. Vehicle not within 30 inches
3. Vehicle not able to be obscured by friendly orky vehicle
4. Tankbustas can't move into a position where they can't see the Vehicle
5. Not a Waaargh round

I'm much more concerned about the Fire Magnet status of a unit that is ALL ROKKITS. Seems like they'll get smoked by enemy fire, but I imagine that their purpose, in the larger scheme of things, is to help your killy boys get stuck in.

i was thinking the same thing, if you block LOS to enemy tanks with terrain or your own vehicles it's not that bad, but yes poorly written rule none the less.

on the whole shoota nob thing, technically you can buy all the upgrades for the nob before you make the mob shootas. In that way he has no choppa and slugga to "trade in" for the shoota.

anyone missing rokkits and big shootas on their nobs yet?

I am VERY much missing not being able to take big shoots and rokkits on my nob. Very much. I was planning a shooty bad moon force, and with that bit gone so goes some of the character. I cannot even get kustom upgrades for the nobs shoota like we used to, like Shootier.

I don't see so much where the issue is with this Shoota Nob not being able to have a klaw. You upgrade to a nob, then a klaw is given to him. The entire mob then changes in thie sluggas and choppas for shootas. The nob doesn't have a choppa, so he doesn't trade anything in except his slugga. There's no "you can't" or "may only if". The ENTIRE mob that has choppas is turning them in. The nob just doesn't happen to have a choppa. It's not game breaking, and I am certain my friends will allow it, so there's no problem for me. Tournaments may be iffy, but only a little.

There's nothing in the entry to say that you can't spend your points to buy the character first and make your changes, then take options for the boyz. There just isn't. It's all listed in the Options section on page 95. The list is just trying to keep all the ranged weapons in the mob the same type.

I'm also thinking that they may have simply copied the same nob language in every entry, and simply never altered the boyz nob to always allow a choppa/slugga.

for slavers i wish they could have at least have shootas! I have two recently converted slavers with big shootas...

Question for those of you who've seen the leaked PDF:

Are pinning checks affected by mob size, or just morale checks?

Over 11 models, they're fearless. Fearless models are immune to pinning if I recall correctly. Anything less than 11 models just uses the model count as it's LD if it wants to.

Any leadersgip based check.

Posted By Iorek on 11/01/2007 10:20 AM
Question for those of you who've seen the leaked PDF:

Are pinning checks affected by mob size, or just morale checks?

The Mob Rule!, uh, rule sez 'Ork mobs may always choose to substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value. If an Ork mob numbers 11 or more models, it has the Fearless special rule.'. I've been out of the game for a while (waiting on this codex and playing WoW) but it would appear that all Leadership checks may be affected by this rule, including those for Pinning.

My knee jerk reaction to Mob Rule is always "Guh," as it's gonna be frustrating (to near impossible for my chaos boys) to have to kill 19 orks from a 30-boy mob before I have even a tiny hope of panicing the squad off ...

But then I think about it and find it pretty fluffy, and not too overpowering given that most orky mobs - particularly specialists - are going to be waaaay less than 30 strong. While it's nice to have 10 Ld10 lootas or such, kill enough to force a panic check and the mobs at Ld7 (less?) anyway. The rule mostly helps big slugga boy mobs hit the enemy in turn 2, so more power to them I guess

- Salvage

Actually Nobz can still have bigshootas and rokkits in some mobs.
Like the ever talked about boyz entry. One Ork trades in his slugga or shoota for a big shoota or rokkit. Then you upgrade said boy to a nob, and his choppa can be replaced by a PK or BC. There is no language at all limiting this as far as I can see.

11 or Higher becomes fearless makes a lot of sense, as 10 would be the highest Ld they could have from mob size and limited by the characteristic.

I don't think the tankbustas rule is poorly written at all, regardless of range makes you forfeit any other actions as you attempt to do these things even if not possible. It's like frenzied troops, you have to learn to control them as much as you can.

Posted By Toreador on 11/01/2007 11:28 AM11 or Higher becomes fearless makes a lot of sense, as 10 would be the highest Ld they could have from mob size and limited by the characteristic.

I am curious how this will work for Psychic tests tho.

Again, he gets Ld 10 from Mob Rule. He is going to be hard to stop when around a big mob of boyz, with even psychic hood only being effective 50% of the time. It is an easy way to represent the fluff that the more boyz around, the more powerful the weirdboy is.

I think flash gitz are a little bit better than what people are giving them credit for. They are very expensive, and I can't see using them in most normal size games, but kitted out they are very nasty.

They won't waste shots ever for being out of range, they are high str low ap killers that can get FNP. The blasta gets hot rule will have little effect on them as they would get two 4+ saves, and they all have nob stats with 2 W, and can even get an inv save! They are great at shooty, and not even all that bad in CC. Not a horrible unit, just not efficient in small games, and in a very competitive heavy slot.

Honestly, I don't see the Gitz being efficient at any points level. The bigger the game gets, the more points you can afford to waste, sure, but your enemy will be able to direct a correspondingly greater amount of firepower at them. Give them the Painboy and blastas like you said and you're looking at enough points to buy 1-2 mobs of normal boyz, or another squad of Lootas or Stormboyz. When would you ever rather have the Gitz?

Yeah I think Gitz are a bit too overpriced considering how specialised they are, and the low BS. I'd run them in combat patrol, for the laugh and because Gitz are fun, but I think they would be dissapointing in a full on game. I mean, you are looking at a VERY pricey unit that can be almost wiped out in a single battlecannon shot.

Posted By Deadshane1 on 11/01/2007 5:38 AM

Posted By uatu13 on 10/31/2007 9:16 PM

Second, Snikrott is just OK. Sure, you get to come in on any board edge, but you already have to have a Commando unit, which aren't that great (3 points more for an Ork boy that has MTC only, and they lose their infiltrate with Snikrott's reserve ability). Snikrott himself is sort of worthless, he's just a guy with a few attacks that reroll to hit. He doesn't have a power claw, so he can't pick off vehicles, and 2 rokkit launchers is hardly a guaranteed kill against most vehicles, especially with Orks BS. Not only this, but once they show up (which is random and could be so late in the game it doesn't matter) they're just another foot slogging unit of guys, where, on the other hand Storm Boyz can pretty much guarantee to get in CC by turn 2, can take a power klaw, and once they get done with their CC they're still highly mobile.

You're missing the point.

60 HtH attacks that you dont even have to think about how they are going to get there.  Its totally disruptive to tau gunlines...even mech if they get out of their vehicles with a fish tactic, to guard gunlines,  you could charge sentinals or warwalkers to tie them up from shooting masses of advancing orks, dev marines are stopped in thier tracks, rear charges on tanks that MUST die....how is this unit not great?  I cant think of an army that is going to be unconcerned about 15 orks charging them from the rear.  Even Necrons, you wouldnt hurt many, but you could possibly stop MULTIPLE units from firing for a turn....or more if you're lucky.  This gives you time to get your powerclaws up before the necrons gauss the hell out of you with two full immortal squads.  Now they're stuck in hth if you do the assault correctly to minimise casualties on your side.

If someone has a static shooting army, this unit can spread its 15 across the enemy deployment zone and engage MULTIPLE units with a good chance of still winning the massive combat.  This unit would WIN THE GAME FOR YOU WITH A MASSACRE and the rest of your army is drinking beer in your deployment zone if your enemy is an infantry based guard army. Space wolf scouts have the same ability, but can only get units of 5, and they are TERRIBLY disruptive to enemy plans.  Just because a unit doenst have a Nob with a Power Klaw in it doesnt mean its "Just O.K."  This unit helps the rest of your footsloggers engage in hand to hand combat unscathed.  The unit is totally awesome, perhaps not for its killing ability, but its tactical value is obvious....and HUGE.

I get your point, and I can see that he'd be devastating for the right game, but you have to realize I'm talking about the army in general, not tailor making a list for a specific opponent. The unit you're talking about costs over 250 points, which is pretty spendy for only foot-slogging orks, and is really more of a "trick unit' than one that can dependably be used in every game. Yeah, SW scouts are completely awesome, but part of that fact comes form them being a tiny, dirt cheap unit loaded up with power weapons, meltas, and plasma showing up behind a vehicle or static army. However, I've had multiple games using SW scouts where they either never came in because of poor reserve rolls, or came in against an army that it didn't matter with (such as a fast moving CC 'Nids).

Snikrot's reserve ability is awesome, but the character and his stats are less than impressive. I just think there are far better units in the new codex for the points costs that would make a much more flexible and general list. I do see how Snikrot could be use to devastating effects though.

I have enough boyz at it is on the table, and another 5 man squad of drawing fire allows my other stuff to get stuck in. With the new points cost of boyz I need more things taking up points

I am using a small squad in apoc this weekend, we will see how they perform.
I would still much rather have an expensive bike mounted nobz mob with painboy... but it is something different.

I think it's cool if you're using Gits by the way, don't get me wrong. I just reckon they're a bit crappy in terms of effectiveness.

Yeah, those Flash Gitz are just never going to be worth their points. A fully upgraded unit costs close to 500 points!!! And, even if you do jack them all up with all the upgrades, they still only get 20 shots, most of which will miss, and a random AP. So, if if you're lucky enough to survive getting into range against terminators or something, you'll probably just roll a 4 on the AP and it won't matter. I really don't understand why these guys take up a heavy slot and cost as much as they do while Lootas, which are pretty much ork's version of marine devastators, are now elites and are relatively cheap for what they do.

I also think that Tank Busta Boyz rule is absolutely terribly written. I could see that if a vehicle is IN RANGE they have to try to shoot at or assault it, but having to target things that are out of range is just plain stupid. Not to mention they're uber-expensive juicy targets that all have rokkit launchers (no ablative wounds). What player would be stupid enough to let these squads EVER get anywhere close to his vehicles? Yeah, you can use another ork vehicle to shield these guys from the enemy vehicle they can't shoot, but then they're probably not shooting much anything else, and a unit that costs this much can't spend turns just sitting around doing nothing.

I think it's pretty obvious that the two turds of this new codex are Flash Gitz and Tank Busta Boyz ;-)

Tankbustas could be useful in a battlewagon as long as the Boomsquigs don't get overexcited.
That's potentially a lot of mobile, heavily armoured rokkits coming at your armour. On the other hand, it's also bloody expensive, and useless if your foe is not bringing a lot of heavy armour.Still, it's a way to make them work, and I absolutely love the new tankbusta models so...

and with both lootas and tankbustas on the board, any of the recent mech armies are going to have a problem.

Tankbustas never have to worry when facing nids....

It's a funny day when a 15 pt model is expensive....
In the old dex I used 5 tankbustas including a nob coming in for a total of 95 pts for 4 rokkits. Now I lose tankhuntas, but my 5 man unit only comes out to 72pts base for more rokkits. I loose the wound shield, but I get more rokkits. Seems an even trade..

Toreador, what are you looking at that lets Nobz get rokkits or big shootas? Is there a more updated codex that is out there that I have not seen? or did I miss it? It's certainly not an option in the list I see before me. I didn't see them as options in other selections either.

Maybe he's referring to combi-weapons or something?

I don't consider a 15 point model to be expensive, but it depends on what it is of course. I'd be fine with Tank Busta Boyz being 15 points if they lost that Glory Hogs rule, or keep the rule and make them WAY cheaper. I don't know, I'm just not ever impressed with heavy weapon Ork units that are spendy, they just die too quickly and can't hit anything most of the time. If I'm going to put that many points into a unit I want it to do something, you know? At least Lootas get so many shots they'll most likely be able to at least glance everything but 14 armor, and they cost the same points, have much longer range, and aren't crippled by that crappy Glory Hogs rule.

okay, it goes by the flow guys.

Options
you may exchange a boyz slugga or shoota for a big shoota or rokkit.
You can also upgrade a boy to a nob. It does not say that it can't be the boy you earlier upgraded to a rokkit or big shoota. I have found no where in the version I have that would not allow me to do this. It doesn't give you an extra weapon though. All it lets you do is keep the cool conversion you had, or put it on a moderately more survivable model. You can therefore get a nob in a boyz mob with a Big Shoota or Rokkit and a Power Klaw.