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I'll get you next time Gadget!

The Chaos Doomsday device is awesome. My chaos friend will be happy to hear this.

warpcrafter wrote:So do any of you think for a second all the people who built themselves Imperator titans aren't doing the happy dance right now?

According to IG experts on Warseer the datasheet is "raping the background material" so apparently not.

With the titan and the Primarch. They are aming to tone things down to atleast be slightly managable. A real one would nuke the board, same as a real Primarch. Just like Movie marines and in-game marines.

lord_blackfang wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:So do any of you think for a second all the people who built themselves Imperator titans aren't doing the happy dance right now?

According to IG experts on Warseer the datasheet is "raping the background material" so apparently not.

IG experts on warseer? Really? experts in a hobby of little plastic men with fluff changed sometimes

At least GW used the outline of the epic model.......

sexiest_hero wrote:With the titan and the Primarch. They are aming to tone things down to atleast be slightly managable. A real one would nuke the board, same as a real Primarch. Just like Movie marines and in-game marines.

Still possible to outgun anything from the distance ( 360" , 540", .......yay).

Grot 6 wrote:The Imperitor has been gealded.

Talk about a nutered vehicle, they pulled its stuff right off. Whoever wrote that one up hasn't played Titan Legions, its painfully, knee slammingly obvious.

The little thing about the mass on this thing can make it a heck of a fun game, but with that datafax, it seems a little nonstarter for my taste.

Once saw one of these that someone made, it stood up to a grown mans hip, and they played the game on a Gym floor.
Just so Im clear, this is the titan that I'm speaking about-
The warhound doesn't even come up to its hip.

I don't really understand, are you complaining that it is too small in the datafax? Because the datafax shows the size to be just as you say, with the warhound not even coming up to its hip.

Masaioh wrote:That's weird, seems like its different from the one at BoLS, which is at least 5' tall and apparently costed 9k points.

5 feet is way too tall. An Imperator properly scaled would be 36"(48" with Crenelations), going by my collection of Epic models and the sizes of 40K Scale Warhounds(11-12") and Reavers(18"). Warlords should be 24".

Here is a quick comparison between the 8 super heavy tanks that one can access via apocalypse against MEQ targets assuming no cover saves. I may be off a bit, but it should be close.

Assumptions:

All tanks have one set of sponsons consisting of 2 lascannons and 2 twin-linked heavy bolters
All tanks have one hull mounted twin-linked heavy bolter
5" blast hits 3 models
7" blast hits 5 models
10" blast hits 8 models

Transport Tanks

Stormlord - 58.25 points per MEQ kill not including the all power to weapons effect; also transports 15 more models than the others
Banehammer - 69.23 points per MEQ kill and has the tremor effect on each shot
Doomhammer - 93.1 points per MEQ kill

Pure Tanks

Baneblade - 42.45 points per MEQ kill and has turret traverse
Banesword - 50 points per MEQ kill with the main weapon being a barrage weapon
Stormsword - 52.78 points per MEQ kill and it ignores cover
Hellhammer - 53.89 points per MEQ kill, ignores cover and has turret traverse; however it is heavy on flamers and as such is probably worse with that taken into account.
Shadowsword - 89.06 points per MEQ kill, but has the only tank destroyer weapon of the group.

Summary:

The Baneblade is still the best bang for the buck, mainly due to the additional weapons it as over the other tanks. The transport tanks are interesting, but I'm not sure they add all that much because of the fact that all the transports only move 6" per turn, the same distance troops can walk and the less than the troops can run. The Shadowsword is an interesting tank in that it has a destroyer weapon, meaning it could be deadly against armies who bring lots of tanks. The Doomhammer and Hellhammer are worthless tanks from what I can see. I'm also not to keen on the Banesword due to the min range, it more mimics a howitzer than a tank; meaning points are spent on armor that isn't going to necessarily be needed. Of course range, typical enemy and other aspects will feed into ones decision on which tank to pick.

The new datasheets are:

Doomsday Device (Chaos)
Karival of Pain (Dark Eldar)
Shadow Walker Formation (Eldar)
Banehammer/Doomhammer/Banesword/Stormlord/Stormsword/Shadowsword (Imperial Guard)
Imperator Titan (Imperium)
Shroudweaver (Necron)
Evil Eye Stompa (Orks)
Lucifer Armoured Force (Marines)
Pathfinder Long Range Infiltration Unit (Tau)
Screamer-Killer Brood (Tyranids)

BYE

Thanks for the analysis Techboss. I feel a little more comfortable picking up that Baneblade now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The new datasheets are:

Doomsday Device (Chaos)
Karival of Pain (Dark Eldar)
Shadow Walker Formation (Eldar)
Banehammer/Doomhammer/Banesword/Stormlord/Stormsword/Shadowsword (Imperial Guard)
Imperator Titan (Imperium)
Shroudweaver (Necron)
Evil Eye Stompa (Orks)
Lucifer Armoured Force (Marines)
Pathfinder Long Range Infiltration Unit (Tau)
Screamer-Killer Brood (Tyranids)

BYE

links for these would be awesome..

Link for the lazy.

Any DL's for those of us firewall handicapped? I might as well be in Red China for the next couple of weeks.

Anyone else notice the plasma annihilator on the Imperator silhouette looks suspiciously phallic.

LOL Love the activation
• Announce activation
• Make demands (for instance, state claim to world domination or
order construction of impressive monument in your honour).
• Disregard any enemy replies and hope your Doomsday Device works. Roll
to activate as per below:

Not overly impressed by the Titan....
4 of your weapons cant hit at less than three feet, then again if your fielding one of those puppies i guess your not playing on the old 6x4 table top lol

grizgrin wrote:Any DL's for those of us firewall handicapped? I might as well be in Red China for the next couple of weeks.

Oh God, it's that bad huh?

Which do you want? I can try uploading to the gallery.

Man it sucks playing Tyranids sometimes. We get ONE new datasheet. Every other army gets 4 or more, and we get ONE.

Hell, they don't even really support the Grey Knights anymore and THEY got one.

Mattlov wrote:Man it sucks playing Tyranids sometimes. We get ONE new datasheet. Every other army gets 4 or more, and we get ONE.

Hell, they don't even really support the Grey Knights anymore and THEY got one.

But did you see the rule about no deamons on the board for the GK's...... I think i will leave them for other to use lol

They haven't even figured out how to make the Imperator Titan work properly in the current version of Epic. I'm surprised they attempted even this watered-down version for Apocalypse.

Mattlov wrote:Man it sucks playing Tyranids sometimes. We get ONE new datasheet. Every other army gets 4 or more, and we get ONE.

Hell, they don't even really support the Grey Knights anymore and THEY got one.

I'm dying to see these 4 Sisters of Battle datasheets that you mentioned.

Techboss wrote:Here is a quick comparison between the 8 super heavy tanks that one can access via apocalypse against MEQ targets assuming no cover saves.

Transport Tanks: Stormlord > Banehammer >> Doomhammer

Pure Tanks: Baneblade > Banesword > Stormsword > Hellhammer >> Shadowsword

The Baneblade is still the best bang for the buck, mainly due to the additional weapons it as over the other tanks. The transport tanks are interesting, but I'm not sure they add all that much

This is a good bit of work though I have a couple comments. The no cover save is a pretty strong assumption. If you assume half the Marines are in cover, then things reshuffle a bit. The other thing about this is that T4 biases things towards S6 as the highest useful value, whereas Apoc has a lot of AV13+ that needs to be dealt with, and should also have some extra consideration for S9+ weapons.

It is significant that the Transport Tanks don't make any use of their Fire Points in your analysis. 10 Guardsmen shooting on the move is pretty cool and finally gives Grenade launchers an actual reason to exist. As a static bunker, drop a couple Dev Squads and a Tac squad that's an extra 4 MLs, 4 Plasma, and Las/Plas coming out... That's just *mean*.

The minimum range on Banesword is a problem in Apoc games where you start on top of your opponent.

I agree the Baneblade is the best bang for the buck, but the Stormsword isn't far behind, nor the Banehammer. I disagree that the Stormlord is the best, because it's overly-specialized as an MEQ-killer - it's a third (or 4th) tank you take, *after* the Baneblade and Stormsword. Indeed, the Banehammer's secondary effect of slowing Assault and enemy movement is a solid value as well, and bumps it up for strong consideration.

here is the good bit. buy 1 shadow sword. get extra sponsons then replace all the lascannons with targeters, place your template then scatter theres only a 2:1 chance it'll scatter at all and then another 1:1 chance whether the template will even move!!!!!!!!!!!

basic plop your template down roll to sactter and the chances are the template wont move!!!!!

JohnHwangDD wrote:The no cover save is a pretty strong assumption. If you assume half the Marines are in cover, then things reshuffle a bit.

Slightly, but probably not enough to mention. All the sponson kills will be reduced equally, meaning the only real change will will be for the 3 tanks that ignore cover. This will push the Shadowsword, Hellhammer and Stormsword up in effectiveness. The Hellhammer will also loose some ground because of the demolisher cannon kills suffering from the cover save. While things do shuffle, I doubt they shuffle enough to really matter. The Shadowsword will still be the least effect infantry killer. The Baneblade will still be the best.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The other thing about this is that T4 biases things towards S6 as the highest useful value, whereas Apoc has a lot of AV13+ that needs to be dealt with, and should also have some extra consideration for S9+ weapons.

I concur with this, but it is still kind of a mute point. All the tanks except 2 are strength 9 or higher and one of the remaining tanks is strength 8. This means that the Stormlord is really the only tank that suffers from having a low weapon strength. All the tanks have lascannons on the sponsons, so they equal out there. With all that being said, it's kind of pointless to waste a big ole pie plate against a vehicle. If the template drifts off, you've wasted a shot unless your using the Shadowsword, which only needs to tag the vehicle. In the end, the weapon strength deltas don't really mean much other than for the Stormlord and Shadowlord.

JohnHwangDD wrote:It is significant that the Transport Tanks don't make any use of their Fire Points in your analysis. 10 Guardsmen shooting on the move is pretty cool and finally gives Grenade launchers an actual reason to exist. As a static bunker, drop a couple Dev Squads and a Tac squad that's an extra 4 MLs, 4 Plasma, and Las/Plas coming out... That's just *mean*.

This was omitted because of the huge variance that can occur based on who is in the tank. It should also be noted that even if these items are added, they would go into the overall tank cost as you have to normalize based on points. A 5 man devastator squad with 4 MLs 69.75 points per MEQ kill, which is actually worse than all but 2 of the tanks. This means that if added into the calculation, transports would be even less points efficient. In addition, the more "stuff" that is in one spot will mean the more enemy fire it draws, so even though the basket is very strong, it will still crack, crushing the eggs inside.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The minimum range on Banesword is a problem in Apoc games where you start on top of your opponent.

This isn't that much of an issue if the tank setups up in a corner and/or back edge. The tank justs needs to be treated as a over grown Basilisk.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I agree the Baneblade is the best bang for the buck, but the Stormsword isn't far behind, nor the Banehammer. I disagree that the Stormlord is the best, because it's overly-specialized as an MEQ-killer - it's a third (or 4th) tank you take, *after* the Baneblade and Stormsword. Indeed, the Banehammer's secondary effect of slowing Assault and enemy movement is a solid value as well, and bumps it up for strong consideration.

I don't see any real issues in taking the Baneblade, Stormlord, Stormsword and the Shadowsword in vehicle heavy battles. The Banehammer has uses against Orks and Tyranids. The Doomhammer and Hellhammer are probably the worst tanks of the bunch, all the rest have some slot they can fill.

Techboss wrote:I don't see any real issues in taking the Baneblade, Stormlord, Stormsword and the Shadowsword in vehicle heavy battles. The Banehammer has uses against Orks and Tyranids. The Doomhammer and Hellhammer are probably the worst tanks of the bunch, all the rest have some slot they can fill.

What's so terribad about doomhammer/hellhammer?

From a model POV i love the stormlord. Mine is 90% painted now and i have to say its looking mean.

I already have a banblade (FW) and now the stormlord I want a third SH tank but im not sure what to get?

Do i just go for another Baneblade or something else? What would you guys do?

Masaioh wrote:What's so terribad about doomhammer/hellhammer?

Hellhammer only has a 7" template and is armed with sponson heavy flamers instead of heavy bolters. Flamers on tanks are a waste IMO as you have to be on top of the enemy to use them. The Stormsword does a better job at the short range, no cover save job as it has a bigger template and can drop the flamers for weapons that have a better range. If you want flamers, it can do that as well.

Doomhammer only has a 5" template with no other benefits other than being S10. The Banehammer has a 7" template at S8 and the tremor effect, while having the same transport ability. The Stormlord is a better transport. The Shadowsword is better anti-tank.

Grandmaster wrote:Do i just go for another Baneblade or something else? What would you guys do?

I'd go Shadowsword of you anticipate lots of armor or Stormsword if you looking for anti-troop.

Techboss wrote:Hellhammer only has a 7" template and is armed with sponson heavy flamers instead of heavy bolters. Flamers on tanks are a waste IMO as you have to be on top of the enemy to use them. The Stormsword does a better job at the short range, no cover save job as it has a bigger template and can drop the flamers for weapons that have a better range. If you want flamers, it can do that as well.

Doomhammer only has a 5" template with no other benefits other than being S10. The Banehammer has a 7" template at S8 and the tremor effect, while having the same transport ability. The Stormlord is a better transport. The Shadowsword is better anti-tank.

Hellhammer also has a demolisher cannon. Smaller templates, but 2 s10 hits.

Doomhammer can transport, what, 25 models? With some of them having fire points? The magma cannon seems to outweigh the stormlord's 40 models. Idk about you, but I'm using this in a chaos army, so 2 CSM squads with 4 special weps + I have a 5-man chosen squad w/ 3 meltaguns. 3 melta shots, 2 plasma shots, 1 HB and 1 flamer shot each turn along with the tank's magma cannon, 3 TL HB, 2 las. Much more anti-tank with the meltas alone, especially if the tank is in close rank like it's meant to be.

Personally, I prefer a higher strength shot over the banehammer's terrain effect.

FlammingGaunt wrote:The Chaos Doomsday device is awesome. My chaos friend will be happy to hear this.

That should soooooo be an Ork Mek datasheet~! I'm ripping that off and making my own Ork Doomsday weapon!

Techboss wrote:

...
I concur with this, but it is still kind of a mute point.
...

Only because it is on the Internet, and not spoken, right?