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Also, the USA can be fairly schizophrenic, down entirely to which party is in power. The GOP are generally regarded as a bunch of Spear Rattling Bullies. Now sometimes, this approach is of course appropriate, but often the GOP are felt to take things far too far. Ref George W Bush and his 'with us or against us' speech, and his rather childish 'Axis of Evil' which suggested, completely incorrectly, that Al Qaeda, The Taleban, North Korea, Iran etc were all in it together. Which they aren't. Iran actually regards The Taleban and Al Qaeda as enemies. Indeed, Iran was actually instrumental in bringing their Afghan Allies, the Northern Alliance, into the fold, accounting for much early success in Afghanistan. They may not have rolled up their sleeves and pitched in, but they opened the route for dialogue to get at least some Afghans on side...

I find that ironic. Until Desert Storm I'm not aware of any war in the 1900s started in a Republican administration, including the current conflicts.
I also find it ironic that Europeans often accuse us of being warmongers, when you dragged US into YOUR wars.

It has to be remembered. Most people in the US can trace their heritage back to people fleeing Europe or other locales for a better life or be free from oppression. A lot of our attitude is not that we're teenagers, but we did it ourselves, and we didn't want to be like Europe.

Essentially left Americans are good Americans. Right Americans are bad Americans. And ask most non Europeans/ Non Americans which is the worst for wars, they'll say Americans. (Don't be confused by my English flag, my family isn't English - people aren't assuming I'm English when they see me). But they'll distinguish America by the administration.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Now, please don't feel I'm being overly negative here, but I would like to make a comparisson....

Europe is of course, ever so slightly older than the USA. And I feel that this shows in the various attitudes.

European countries are more like middle aged folks. Bit more balanced in most views, definitely stuck in their ways in others, but overall fairly mature in their dealings with the wider world.

The USA however, is closer to someone not long out their Teens. They have discovered the World isn't a terribly nice place, and whilst trying to figure out their own way, make silly mistakes which are all too easily judged as immature, rather than due to a lack of experience (there IS a difference!)

Funnily enough, the US has the oldest continuous government on Earth. Sort, depending on exactly how one defines continuous. Looking at the UK, for instance, you have an evolutionary process, so while you've a queen as head of state for a long time, the system right now is very different to the system

Anyway, point is that the US has been around for a long time so I don't see how referencing them as a young nation makes a lot of sense. Rather, I think the US is acting like every nation has when they've ended up top dog. British views during their period of international dominance weren't so different.

Also, like fraz points out, most wars the US entered were entered while Democrats were in charge. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, all under Democrats. I think most were finished while Republicans were in charge. Not that that necessarily means anything, because the politics of the two parties have changed considerably over time. It has to be remembered that until LBJ passed the Civil Rights Act, the Democrats were the party of the old white man. Then you get the Southern Strategy and the absorbtion of all these racist elements into the Republican party.

Thats the thing though. It's only really since WW2 that America has risen (rose? Not sure which is grammatically correct in this instance) to prominence, taking full advantage of the former Super Powers of the world being exhausted by two extremely costly wars within 30 years of each other.

Thus, I often get the impression the USA is a little too keen to stamp it's mark on the world.

Now remember, in this thread I am only giving my opinion, which has been formed via the media. I am perfectly aware their are massive blindspots in my observations, and I welcome peoples input if it helps clear those up.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Thats the thing though. It's only really since WW2 that America has risen (rose? Not sure which is grammatically correct in this instance) to prominence, taking full advantage of the former Super Powers of the world being exhausted by two extremely costly wars within 30 years of each other.

Thus, I often get the impression the USA is a little too keen to stamp it's mark on the world.

I agree. I wonder how much could be said about the US national character pre and post WWII, and how much it changed once they became the top dog. A change from ‘we love our way of life’ to ‘our way of life is best’. A move away from socialist ideas, because the USSR and its socialism was now the big evil.

I couldn’t really say, but its an interesting thought experiment.

Now remember, in this thread I am only giving my opinion, which has been formed via the media. I am perfectly aware their are massive blindspots in my observations, and I welcome peoples input if it helps clear those up.

Yeah, absolutely, that’s what it’s all about.

this is fascinating conversation, reminding me of many a drunken night spent in a hostel.

One of the things that many Internationals don't really get about Americans is that we're taught, even in schools and in media, that America was founded to be great, became great, and is great. Simply look at the way we're taught history, it's basically one of the greatest foundation stories imaginable. In England, one of the biggest dates in your history is 1066, when the nation was conquered. In the US, it's 1776, when we declared independence. Our history is full of gentleman philosophers who created, in only a few months, a system of government that works really, really well. We won wars against ludicrous odds (Even if we had more help in most of them than most Americans realize), and we've gained territory larger than the Roman Empire through war, gumption, and occasionally simple cash.

It's hard to survive public school history and not really, really have a complex about how awesome the US is.

the other thing, regarding American's ignorance of the outside world, is mostly an excuse, but I think it's a good one: we don't exactly have a lot of interesting neighbors. Canada is culturally very close to us (and a tenth the population), and Mexico isn't exactly what you'd call a threat. Compare that to Europe, where even now power revolves around Britain, France, and Germany. Add in the fact that you can visit any climate from Arctic to Tropical and never leave the US, most of us prefer to vacation domestically.

This is great. Do the UK next!

In Australia we have had no great defeats, or personal victories. We've been shot up for other countries, sure, but in schools it cannot be taught so motivationally. We didn't have to fight for independance, we just had Sir Henry Parkes and some bureaucratical shuffling.

The most interesting thing I've picked up from Americans, all of whom I've met in my own country, is that they are amazed at how much they learn about everywhere after just a while over here. The Americans who grew up with their parents tend to retain their unsociable attitudes and strong sense of independence, whilst those on study visa or similar tend to fit in well, and only stick out because their speaking volume is twice as loud as it out to be.

It would be understandably difficult to comprehend the feelings of other nations when your country knows itself as the only superpower, and had its leaders deliberately sow paranoia and hatred toward the only other superpower they're really acknowledged. I like to think the current state of their greatest modern foundation, economy, will bring about some humility all around. It's either that or another full-blown propoganda war, right?

I vote for B. I've already noted the US needs to "go Roman" and take the spoils from Belgium and Brazil to return it to economic health. After all, it was good enough for Caesar, its good enough for us.

For too long the US has toiled without the natural resources of really good beer and fine Brazilian women. If we let that stand, then the terrorists have already won.

All you need do is grant Green Cards on the basis of thong bikinis and you will be inundated with Brazilian women.

(Watch out for the 'traps' though.)

One thing that does confuse me is your armed forces. Why do your foot troops all appear to behave like the Colonial Marines in Aliens? Whenever you see them they are behaving like they are in a movie. Whooopping it up, back slapping or talling about being "Bad Asses". Or is it just me?

I met an American soldier at the Japanese School in London and he was super polite, called me 'Sir' and everything, it made me feel old. He got transferred to Iraq and his wife went to the US.

I met another soldier on the train in Tokyo and we got talking. He was based in Sasebo I think (Airforce?) and he played saxophone in a jazz band on his evenings off.

Nice guy. I wished I had given him one of my cards but I was running short.

sebster wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Now, please don't feel I'm being overly negative here, but I would like to make a comparisson....

Europe is of course, ever so slightly older than the USA. And I feel that this shows in the various attitudes.

European countries are more like middle aged folks. Bit more balanced in most views, definitely stuck in their ways in others, but overall fairly mature in their dealings with the wider world.

The USA however, is closer to someone not long out their Teens. They have discovered the World isn't a terribly nice place, and whilst trying to figure out their own way, make silly mistakes which are all too easily judged as immature, rather than due to a lack of experience (there IS a difference!)

Funnily enough, the US has the oldest continuous government on Earth. Sort, depending on exactly how one defines continuous. Looking at the UK, for instance, you have an evolutionary process, so while you've a queen as head of state for a long time, the system right now is very different to the system

I would say the evolutionary English parliamentary democracy forms one of the longest running single government on the planet, but the Papal state may be longer running, even accounting for it's now much diminished status. So I'll give you points for being one of the oldest continous governments, but certainly not the oldest.

Wolfstan wrote:One thing that does confuse me is your armed forces. Why do your foot troops all appear to behave like the Colonial Marines in Aliens? Whenever you see them they are behaving like they are in a movie. Whooopping it up, back slapping or talling about being "Bad Asses". Or is it just me?

They're trying to show personality so they can end up as the protagonist.

Polonius wrote:
the other thing, regarding American's ignorance of the outside world, is mostly an excuse, but I think it's a good one: we don't exactly have a lot of interesting neighbors. Canada is culturally very close to us (and a tenth the population), and Mexico isn't exactly what you'd call a threat. Compare that to Europe, where even now power revolves around Britain, France, and Germany. Add in the fact that you can visit any climate from Arctic to Tropical and never leave the US, most of us prefer to vacation domestically.

The CIA disagrees with you about Mexico.

We on the other hand from Canada are content to be ignored and sell you our oil and our celebrities.

It's also the isolationist tendencies that drive the domestic vacations.

sebster wrote:Anyway, point is that the US has been around for a long time so I don't see how referencing them as a young nation makes a lot of sense.

What's your take on 100 miles? I'd say it's a long way. YMMV

Wolfstan wrote:One thing that does confuse me is your armed forces. Why do your foot troops all appear to behave like the Colonial Marines in Aliens? Whenever you see them they are behaving like they are in a movie. Whooopping it up, back slapping or talling about being "Bad Asses". Or is it just me?

There's two different bits in the military, from my experience meeting and gaming with troops.
You've got the lifers, who entered out of a sense of patriotic duty and are intending to use the skills they learn there in then moving on to a civil service job. Some of these guys came from crummy backgrounds, and the military was a great way for them to get a higher education.
And then you've got the kids from crummy neighborhoods, who thought the military was just going to be a great way for them to get chicks. Some of these kids were also heavily involved in gangs before getting in, and retain their gang ties while in there.

I'll see if I can find the documents I was reading, but apparently there's been a pretty big increase of gang members being allowed into the military, even ones with criminal backgrounds(for big stuff. Not like maybe a shoplifting charge or something small. Some with aggravated assault, stuff of that nature), which is slightly disturbing.

Kanluwen wrote:...there's been a pretty big increase of gang members being allowed into the military, even ones with criminal backgrounds(for big stuff. Not like maybe a shoplifting charge or something small. Some with aggravated assault, stuff of that nature), which is slightly disturbing.

Not totally unexpected there have been a lot of changes to both the US and the British army in recent years (as happens in every prolonged conflict). I'm not sure it's a good idea though, nobody has fond memories of the 'Black and Tans'.

I'm willing to bet that Brits were considered to be a little arrogant and UK-centric when they were the world superpower. Some of that attitude comes with the territory, I think.

The U.S. is in a tremendous catch-22 regarding our involvement in other nations' affairs that people don't fully appreciate. When there's a disaster or conflict, other nations look to the U.S. and say "why aren't you doing something?" When the U.S. responds, other nations say "mind your own business." I suspect it was a similar thing when the UK was at its height.

Polonius wrote:One of the things that many Internationals don't really get about Americans is that we're taught, even in schools and in media, that America was founded to be great, became great, and is great.

It's one of our strengths and weaknesses, I think. The notion of manifest destiny is something that can easily lead to arrogance and bad actions. On the other hand, it also lends the confidence needed to do great things. Americans are taught to think they can tackle anything -- individually and collectively -- because they believe their history shows that they can.

It's hard to survive public school history and not really, really have a complex about how awesome the US is.

I think it's all left over from the Cold War. I mean, why DO our children still say the pledge every morning? Are our children really at risk of allying themselves with a foreign power overnight? I love my country, but it's just kinda odd and something out of the McCarthy era. "Look, I'm pledging my allegiance! No commies here! Please move along!"

Add in the fact that you can visit any climate from Arctic to Tropical and never leave the US, most of us prefer to vacation domestically.

I agree that's a factor.

The Pledge of Allegiance bit is an interesting one. I think it's less about allegiance these days, so much as a sense of national identity.

But therein lies another problem that rears itself up in America. If we get immigrants who're proud of their heritage, they can be persecuted by some who feel they're "polluting" the country.

are we really that loud compared to everyone else?

and for anyone that visits Tennessee, we don't all play banjo's and most of us wear shoes......don't believe "Deliverance", even in the east part of tenneessee i live in

gorgon wrote:I'm willing to bet that Brits were considered to be a little arrogant and UK-centric when they were the world superpower. Some of that attitude comes with the territory, I think.

.

Maybe.

The British were all over the rest of the known world for centuries -- Crusades, Varangian Guard, 100 Years War, expeditions to Spain and Portugal, the White Company in Italy -- things went a bit quiet between 1453 and the mid-16th century when we started to agg the Spanish again, and there was another break for the ECW, then we started involving ourselves in continental and American affairs, got stuck into India, and North Africa in a small way.

All of this happened before Britain became a world power, in fact it's the history of how and why Britain became a world power.

No doubt the Brits of the time were arrogant but they were hardly UK-centric, and weren't during the Imperial era -- they were zooming around all over the place, suppressing the slave trade, blowing up pirates and so on.

greenskin lynn wrote:are we really that loud compared to everyone else?

and for anyone that visits Tennessee, we don't all play banjo's and most of us wear shoes......don't believe "Deliverance", even in the east part of tenneessee i live in

In my experience it is Italians who are the loudest.

But when we look back at the British Empire we at least admit it was violent. That doesn't mean we deny the pluses either

*grumbles under his breath about the british empire*
(What, it's expected!)

My experience of other people's stereotypes of the US is that ye are generally considered fat and stupid and loud.

My own experience has lead me to believe that america is a really, really diverse place with a lot of different people and cultures all melting together. I'd be more likely to stereotype certain groups of americans than all americans.

Fat, Stupid, Ignorant, Stupid, Stupid, Old-Fashioned, Stupid, Heavy Handed, Overpaid, Oversexed etc. etc.

But yeah, the actual country's pretty nice place. The first time you go there (No lies.) most (Non-americans) get the "EVERYTHING happens here!" sense, the world that lives in our TVs, Videogames, Novels. It's very surreal to be in New York for the first time.

I still think England (Britain) is the most successful, incredible country out there, but hey.

sA

I found Long Island and Miami to be quite a disappointment. I mean, they were nice enough but not WOW kind of nice.

well my only visit state side was to Las Vegas....and damn was that fun! i don't care what people think about the USA the people in Vegas are great!

Frazzled wrote:

Also, the USA can be fairly schizophrenic, down entirely to which party is in power. The GOP are generally regarded as a bunch of Spear Rattling Bullies. Now sometimes, this approach is of course appropriate, but often the GOP are felt to take things far too far. Ref George W Bush and his 'with us or against us' speech, and his rather childish 'Axis of Evil' which suggested, completely incorrectly, that Al Qaeda, The Taleban, North Korea, Iran etc were all in it together. Which they aren't. Iran actually regards The Taleban and Al Qaeda as enemies. Indeed, Iran was actually instrumental in bringing their Afghan Allies, the Northern Alliance, into the fold, accounting for much early success in Afghanistan. They may not have rolled up their sleeves and pitched in, but they opened the route for dialogue to get at least some Afghans on side...

I find that ironic. Until Desert Storm I'm not aware of any war in the 1900s started in a Republican administration, including the current conflicts.
I also find it ironic that Europeans often accuse us of being warmongers, when you dragged US into YOUR wars.

It has to be remembered. Most people in the US can trace their heritage back to people fleeing Europe or other locales for a better life or be free from oppression. A lot of our attitude is not that we're teenagers, but we did it ourselves, and we didn't want to be like Europe.

Classic ignorance?

1. I believe the Japanese might have had slightly more of an impact than Britain when it came to the US joining the war.
2. The massive scale of warfare post 1945 instigated, approved or manipulated by the US is staggering.
3. We didn't want to be like Europe. And you've succeeded. Although I believe the need to avoid taxes to the British crown probably weighed more on the collective US mindset than the need for a reinvented style, or change of scenery. The notion that Americans want to believe in their own independence is obvious, but there is an equally strong feeling of clinging to your roots displayed by many in the US. American flag waving is all well and good, but the amount of plastic patrionage is clear.

Kilkrazy wrote:No doubt the Brits of the time were arrogant but they were hardly UK-centric, and weren't during the Imperial era -- they were zooming around all over the place, suppressing the slave trade, blowing up pirates and so on.

Hmm, I should have specified what I meant by UK-centric. I meant that a British citizen might have been less interested in other countries, etc. in much the same way that Americans may be today. Seems like it might be a reasonable (if close-minded) attitude for someone living in the "it" country.

Although your geography in Europe is quite different than ours. You don't have to travel very far to find yourself someplace with a different culture and speaking another language.

1. I believe the Japanese might have had slightly more of an impact than Britain when it came to the US joining the war.
***We had destroyers in a quasi war with the Germans in 1940. Remember if it was just the Japanese we would have stomped them mightily in 2.5 years. Yet the bulk of our forces went to fight IN EUROPE.

2. The massive scale of warfare post 1945 instigated, approved or manipulated by the US is staggering.
***Wow thats not a Che Guevara statement at all is it.
Korean? Communist North Korea and China
Vietnam-Communist North Vietnam infiltrating South Vietnam.
Middle East? Not us.
African wars-USSR and Cuba, not us.
India/China/pakistan wars: not us.
Falklands-you Brits beating on poor innocent Argentina . If we followed the Monroe Doctrine your ships would have been met by five carriers going "Go ahead, make our day."
Gulf War I. Iraq attacked
Afghanistan. they started it.
Kosovo. You are right we had no business there.
Iraq II. Regardless or the nonsense, every missile they fired at a US aricraft between 1992 and that attack was an act of War.

3. We didn't want to be like Europe. And you've succeeded. Although I believe the need to avoid taxes to the British crown probably weighed more on the collective US mindset than the need for a reinvented style, or change of scenery. The notion that Americans want to believe in their own independence is obvious, but there is an equally strong feeling of clinging to your roots displayed by many in the US. American flag waving is all well and good, but the amount of plastic patrionage is clear.