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Reaver83 wrote:If I was GW I'd go for three codecies a year one being MEQ
2010 = Necrons, Templars, Missions, Dark Eldar
2011 = Tyranids, Space Hulk, Blood Angels, supplement
2012 = Sisters, Grey Knights, Chaos

IMO, your 2010 has real problems. I think it's too early for Necrons based on lack of rumor / confirmation. Also, you don't have any guaranteed heavy-hitter Codex (SM, Chaos, IG, Eldar, Nids) that year to carry sales. If GW does this, it could be a very weak year if they don't have side stuff.

Your 2011 is good, but it's a year late (I pegged this for 2010).

Your 2012 is a challenge, as 2012 should be a new Edition, meaning that SM get stuck in. I could see Chaos move to Q1 2013 to make room for the obligatory 6E and SM releases in 2012. The anti-Chaos theme is good.

gorgon wrote:I don't think I'd hold my breath on a new Eldar codex. Based on Harry's hints on Warseer, it seems like Tyranids and Tau are more likely to be the mystery codex.

My money's on Tyranids for three reasons. One, the current codex will be 6 years old in 2010. Two, I'm sure the designers can't wait to rein in Nidzilla. The army doesn't work the way they want it to. Three, if the codex returns to emphasizing horde or semi-horde play, they probably stand to sell a lot of boxed sets to all the Nidzilla players who own nary a Gaunt or Warrior. The $$$ upside there is probably higher than with Tau and Eldar.

1. Makes sense, the codex IS a touch long in the tooth.

2. Sorry, completely disagree. I think Nidzilla was FAN-fething-TAStic for GW in terms of the Tyranid army. I would hazard to say that GW sold many many more Tyranid Monstrous creature kits to support the Rise of Nidzilla than they would have from a more balanced codex. So how is that a failure for them? They sold "big critter" kits to people with "horde army" set ups. Sounds like an Economic Win for the Accounting Department, which will end up giving the marching orders to the creative lackeys, which includes the developers. THinking that Fluff drives design denies the basic function of GW.

3. I agree 100%. Also your assesment of the $$$$ upside.

On a creative note, I really think the Tau and the Eldar are very finished, polished, modernized (you will understand what I mean by that if you take a SM from 15 years ago and compare him to a Vanguard) looking armies. Drastic improvements in certain areas of those lines are absolutely possible, but creative leaps over the entire lines? Not Mrs. Grin's little boy Griz, thanks. That would be a rough chore.

A new Tyranid Codex will emphasise hordes and Tyranid Warriors, meaning that all the people who started Tyranids and either went Zilla or Stealer Shock will have to go and buy new models.

It's pendulum game design at its finest, and really, I welcome a return to Tyranids being a Horde army... as long as they fix the fething Venom Cannon and allow it to Pen vehicles.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Reaver83 wrote:If I was GW I'd go for three codecies a year one being MEQ
2010 = Necrons, Templars, Missions, Dark Eldar
2011 = Tyranids, Space Hulk, Blood Angels, supplement
2012 = Sisters, Grey Knights, Chaos

IMO, your 2010 has real problems. I think it's too early for Necrons based on lack of rumor / confirmation. Also, you don't have any guaranteed heavy-hitter Codex (SM, Chaos, IG, Eldar, Nids) that year to carry sales. If GW does this, it could be a very weak year if they don't have side stuff.

Your 2011 is good, but it's a year late (I pegged this for 2010).

Your 2012 is a challenge, as 2012 should be a new Edition, meaning that SM get stuck in. I could see Chaos move to Q1 2013 to make room for the obligatory 6E and SM releases in 2012. The anti-Chaos theme is good.

Why 2012?

40K's releases have been 87/93/98/04/08. WFB is 96/02/06 in its recent editions.

5 or 6 years seems more typical, and 5th hasn't shown glaring weaknesses yet (unlike 3rd at this point in its lifespan).

Besides, Space Wolves and Blood Angels (and even Chaos books) will push Marines sales without the need for a new edition.

Has GW publically stated that they're doing a new edition every 4 years? If not, it's a strange assumption to make.

H.B.M.C. wrote:A new Tyranid Codex will emphasise hordes and Tyranid Warriors, meaning that all the people who started Tyranids and either went Zilla or Stealer Shock will have to go and buy new models.

It sells models, mmmhmm.

2010
Q1 = Tyranids - plastic HT
Q2 = Space Hulk
Q3 = Apoc. rules 3 - Eldar Scorpion
Q4 = Blood Angels - all-new BA sprue
+ IG wave 2 - Chimera & Hellhound

I'll agree with that and add to it a revised WD list for Deathwatch.

Asmodai wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:2012 should be a new Edition, ...

Why 2012?

40K's releases have been 98/04/08. WFB is 96/02/06 in its recent editions.

Has GW publically stated that they're doing a new edition every 4 years?

No, GW hasn't oficially stated this. But they really should. It's the kind of rules meta-release that would go a long way towards forcing GW to focus on rules in a clear, consistent fashion. A sort of an imposed external discipline, if you will.

40k3 was basically an all-new version and lasted 6 years. In this time, GW floated out Trial Assault and Vehicle Rules that extended 3rd by an additional 2 years. During this time, GW completed the full base set of Codices.

40k4 was a clear improvement and consolidation over 3rd, but only lasted 4 years. 4th could have gone 5 or 6 years, as the rules baseline with USRs would have supported this, aside from the Codex rules getting out of control.

40k5 was primarily a cleanup of 4th, with very few changes to the core ruleset, mostly clarifications of things that were in the FAQ.

Then look at WFB6 and 7 - WFB6 was basically clean, but GW cleaned up to 7th 4 years later. Could 6th have gone another year? Probably.

As with 40k4, GW recognized that it was better to preempt things by releasing a base edition sooner on a 4-year cycle. First, it forces players to buy new rulebooks more frequently, shifting the balance of payments from up to $10 per year to over $12 per year - a 20% increase in the minimum cost. Secondly, it allows GW to make more incremental rules changes, rather than forcing many major changes in an edition. As there are financial and practical reasons to accelerate the basic rules to a 4-year cycle, I see no reason for GW not to do this.

But who knows...

I said this half-joking on another thread and I'm wondering about now.

GW has said that they are very happy with 5th ed and that they plan on it being around for a while. So much so that there are claims that there won't be a new 40K BRB untill all codices are up to date.

Now, this may seem out there but,"What if there is never going to be a 6th ed?"
What if for 40Ks big 25 anniversary they gave what a lot of people been asking for and moved the storyline forward to 50K?
Could GW keep its customer-base happy by giving everyone a current codex for what will be the last 40Kruleset? Then near the mid point of finishing they launch a whole new product that uses a very up to date system along with brand new armies.

From a business point of view they keep their money maker while testing the market for its replacement. If it's a dud they keep their tried and true, no foul just money lost on a business venture.
The new game would use none of the old pieces (pieces that they would still be selling for Apoc). So your regular customers couldn't just top off with every new ruleset.

Does this sound crazy or like a viable business plan?


Edit to add dropped sentence and to remove unfunny joke.

@Reaver83- Why the Tau hate? You completely ignored them in your list. I originally started this post with a jibe about a hammer head blowing up your land raider but edited to actually find out why.

I'm sure GW is happy with the 5E rules, but the idea that they won't sell a new version is a pipe dream because it consigns 40k to the dead pile like SG. 40k needs new versions to keep up with rules "tech". At a minimum, 40k6 will amost certainly remove VPs entirely from the main system, while adding secondary objectives in their place, to finish the transition to narrative play. Plus, there are a small number of trivial things that can be tweaked and rebalanced (e.g Cover Saves moving to 5+). All it means is that 6th will be a minor evolution of 5th, rather than a major overhaul like 3rd.

Moving the storyline and army rules can happen without affecting the rules base, just add76 more gimdark. Look at the 5e SM book.

But really, if you look at it carefully, Apoc *is* the replacement for 40k.

H.B.M.C. wrote:... as long as they fix the fething Venom Cannon and allow it to Pen vehicles.

My thoughts exactly

JohnHwangDD wrote:But really, if you look at it carefully, Apoc *is* the replacement for 40k.

This is what makes me wonder about the 40K future. It would be very easy at this point for GW to just update all of the Codices and leave a good enough rule book for the die-hards and beginners but that 40K is going to become 40K Apoc. When in business you have to look at future growth. How much growth room is left for 40K?

They could just leave it to become Apoc and churn out steady profits to fund areas with greater potential for growth. A futuristic sci-fantasy system that is like a business model start over. All new models so people won't just buy the missing pieces but instead have to start from the ground up.

Apoc puts them in the position to move the story forward without p**sing off their existing customer base by abandoning them. They leave 40K players fully supported as Apoc becomes the BRB and they turn out codices tailored to the system. Now with a huge battle system there will be room in the market for a squad action based game like 40K started as. They introduce an even more futuristic game that shows a completely changed galaxy and brings an additional x thousand years of history for the apoc system to model battles after while new system starts to write its own future.

I'm not saying its gonna happen but as a business plan it would make sense.

I very much doubt we'll see a 50K or even 40K become a 40KApoc while the base game atrophies.

40K is a huge money maker and has been for decades.

GW's games aside from LotR/40K/WFB haven't done so well - Gorkamorka, Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Man O' War, Mordheim, etc. all died without achieving a fraction of 40K's market share.

Why would GW bet the farm on a new venture when they have a proven business model that's still making money?

Best case, they've now split their market and have twice as much development costs for the same sales to the same players.

Worst case, 40K atrophies, and the new game goes over as well with hardcore gamers as LotR causing them to
move to other games since 40K no longer has the advantage of being so widely played and portable almost anywhere in the world.

I think dropping 40K would also cause a huge number of people to leave the hobby. I know many people who stopped playing when 2nd became 3rd. I imagine if that was combined with a loss of support for current armies the drop-off would be even worse.

John, you made good points about the advantage of a consistent development cycle. In past interviews, GW has described their style as being much more ad hoc (i.e. "We had a great idea for this army, so we decided to do them next. We don't have any good ideas for that other army yet, so we're going to leave them.").

Thing is I never said support would be dropped. In fact I said that the game would live on, just on a larger scale.

The worst case scenario is that they introduce a new game and if it flops they just go back to the tried and true.

At their current rate of updating, if GW keeps its promise to update all 40k armies before a new edition(BRB). They will skip the normal 5 year mark because it'll take at least 8 years to fulfill that promise. maybe going as long as 10 years.

Thats a huge window to test the waters with a new system.

@John- I do agree that when/if 6th comes it will be like 4th was to 3rd. A subtle correction of the few real problems the system currently has.

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:But really, if you look at it carefully, Apoc *is* the replacement for 40k.

This is what makes me wonder about the 40K future. How much growth room is left for 40K?

There are probably at least 2 more editions in 40k: 6th for Secondary Objectives and Clarified Scoring, and 7th for Personal Objectives and Army Objectives.

focusedfire wrote:They could just leave it to become Apoc and churn out steady profits to fund areas with greater potential for growth. A futuristic sci-fantasy system that is like a business model start over. All new models so people won't just buy the missing pieces but instead have to start from the ground up.

GW is already doing this, but in a more organic fashion. Look at the all-new Baneblade / Shadowsword / Stompa triumvirate, along with mega sets like the SM Company. Apoc is definitely a new start, structured around Datasheets, rather than the FOC. But it's big, and it needs a smaller starting place as foundation. That foundation is regular 40k.

focusedfire wrote:Apoc puts them in the position to move the story forward without p**sing off their existing customer base by abandoning them.

GW is already advancing the story (slightly) in the main rulebook, if you go through the 5E Fluff section.

focusedfire wrote:They leave 40K players fully supported as Apoc becomes the BRB and they turn out codices tailored to the system. Now with a huge battle system there will be room in the market for a squad action based game like 40K started as.

IMO, this is too much work for GW. They have, right now:
- WFB (7E)
- Apoc (1E)
- 40k (5E)
- WotR (1E)
That's plenty enough to keep things going on a continuous 4-year cycle from now until eternity, each catering to totally different games...

Here's a radical idea for GW, why don't they channel some of their resources into producing some nice plastic support kits for gamers. I would say that most gamers out there have all the forces they need, IMO all these new figures do is drip feed us regular gamers. What GW needs is for the vast pool of vets to have a "bloody hell, I want one of those, one of those, one of those and definately one of those!" moment. How do they do this? Simple, take 10 Forgeworld super heavies, titans, flyers or unique models and turn them into plastics. Throw in some quality scenery kits and they could own us better then the devil himself. As an aside if GW made their scenery generic then you would get sales from non GW players looking for stuff (who knows they could be converted).

Meh. It would be silly for GW to follow up guard with a completely erronius and non-core like space wolves. Necrons actually need help, real help. dork elfdar haven't had a dex in... well they should get skipped but daemon hunters could use an update. For some reason I hear sisters players complain about their AMAZINGLY GOOD codex because some of their wording is a bt off-sync with 5th but their book is just dandy. A new Tau book would be cool, but really lets just pray that the crons get a book next. They need it the most by far.

Nids will for sure get the plastic gargoyles and people will buy it like crazy and one big fella, maybe the old rumoured plastic trygon again people will buy the buggers like maniacs... and spacehulk... oh my the Hivequeen is going to kill me.

Well at least that's what I'm wishing for the end of 2009 begining of 2010.

I actually like the idea of GW expanding its terrain kits to include the alien races. It works from both the business aspect and from the supporting existing armies aspect.

I'd love to do battle on a craftworld.

Perhaps to solve all the major workings, they should release "Suppilment" mini-codex's to go with the races that have problems. Primary focus would be Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Deamonhunters and maybe nids. These small 10-15 page books will come the previous rule and then listed with the modified and/or new rule/s. This would fix alot of problems that come with the large editon updates and it would be alot less work than releasing a whole codex with added units.

Not that i'm saying they shouldn't keep releasing codex and with new units, models, gear, etc. I'm just saying they should have a nice little "error book" that you can buy that makes it so your army isn't broken on day 1.

Superscope wrote:Perhaps to solve all the major workings, they should release "Suppilment" mini-codex's to go with the races that have problems. Primary focus would be Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Deamonhunters and maybe nids. These small 10-15 page books will come the previous rule and then listed with the modified and/or new rule/s. This would fix alot of problems that come with the large editon updates and it would be alot less work than releasing a whole codex with added units.

Not that i'm saying they shouldn't keep releasing codex and with new units, models, gear, etc. I'm just saying they should have a nice little "error book" that you can buy that makes it so your army isn't broken on day 1.

This is actually a great idea,hope someone at GW takes notes.

I've thrown this idea out in other threads. I'll let John HwangDD reply to this as far as the business reasons why people think they don't do it.

I like the idea but they say GW has it reasons not to. I don't agree with the reasons but GW hasn't done it yet, so what do I know.


Back to the Alien cities idea.

Which Alien Cities or worlds would you like to see done?

Tau city terrian, woot woot!

Kungfuhustler wrote:Meh. It would be silly for GW to follow up guard with a completely erronius and non-core like space wolves. Necrons actually need help, real help. dork elfdar haven't had a dex in... well they should get skipped but daemon hunters could use an update. For some reason I hear sisters players complain about their AMAZINGLY GOOD codex because some of their wording is a bt off-sync with 5th but their book is just dandy. A new Tau book would be cool, but really lets just pray that the crons get a book next. They need it the most by far.

The Space Wolves box sets used to be some of the biggest selling kits in GW's range. As rules support dropped off so too did sales to the end result that the kit was eventually pulled from shelves.

I'm sure some accountant somewhere is rather narked that one of the their biggest selling products tanked in such a fashion and a rules update and kit refresh could catapult SW back into the stardom they had back in 3rd and 2nd ed. It's only since 4th gacked their rules so badly that SW became an "erroneous" army, they used to be very popular.

Necrons need help but so do wolves, wolves have needed a refresh for longer, they used to sell bigger than crons have ever sold and GW likes to get some kind of Marine release in every year.


I agree that crons need the most help ruleswise of any list to remain competitive (except maybe daemonhunters) but judging from the rumours we're getting the next big xenos release is probably going to be Dark Eldar followed by a quickie release of Tau or Nids and then necrons the year after. I think Johnhwang's idea for a Space Hulk themed year works too and it would make a lot more sense than releasing both space hulk and planetstrike in the same year.

I'm torn between the SW and DE getting the love. I personally hope that they are the next two codices.

After that I feel that the Nids and Tau will be close to one another but would be comfortable with my beloved Tau waiting a little long while the BA got taken care of. I'm not necessarily a BA fan but just am not comfortable feeling pity for a SM chapter.


As far as Space hulk goes. It really should be a Christmas release. Its a game that can be packaged in one box and be taken out and played without to much trouble once the pieces are assembled.

With the right packaging and promotion it could easily be that gift that moms buy their kids and inadvertently get them hooked on the 40K addiction.

I too hope that there is a Tau city set. It would be a toss up between that and an Eldar craftworld cityscape.


I still think its odd that there isn't any real rumble about whats up this summer

Hmmm.. your right about SW, DE and BA. All those havn't had alot of love in ages. Seriously, they should do a "Revival year" that for that whole year they bring back the items that's had the worst neglect.

Pardon for my noobish question, but what exactly is space hulk?

And yes, a Eldar craftworld would be a awesome cityscape. Perhaps they should do "realm of battle cityscape" terrian board that's preped to be used with alsorts of buidlings.

Some objective buildings like a bunker or a sensor array of some type would be awesome. I bet people could find alsorts of things to do with objective style building sets. Perhaps SM gun turret buildings as well, or some more objective markers. The space marine ones are cool ;p

Problem with alien city kits or terrain kits is that they are pretty niche, most of the actual fighting takes places on Imperial worlds and whatnots.

I think an alien city kit would be pretty easy. Orks would be the easiest and could be accomplished just by making some junked together looking wall panels. Tyranids could be something as simple as hived up walls, that once again could be used with the pre-existing stuff. Chaos could also be done in a similar way to those two. Tau and Eldar, I think would be cool to see but would be more difficult and least likely. The most you could hope for with tau would be something similar to imperial cities, obviously with different panels, and then some tiles to create rounded corners. Eldar would require an even higher number of gradually curved surfaces.

BrookM wrote:Problem with alien city kits or terrain kits is that they are pretty niche, most of the actual fighting takes places on Imperial worlds and whatnots.

I think the main reason for this is that there are just not kits to support it. Xenos attacks on Eldar Maiden Worlds, Tau colonies being retaken by their former occupants, ork warbasses being attacked by forces trying to root them out of an area, all of these would be really cool things to have terrain kits for. Even if not a full fledged "City of Eldar Death!" kit, some "building gubbins" would be a cool thing to have, something to build around with stuff to spruce things up.
Armor Cast makes similar things, like end toppers for soda cans to make them look like factory gas tanks and such. A very neat idea for scratch builders.

grizgrin wrote:Sorry, completely disagree. I think Nidzilla was FAN-f*cking-TAStic for GW in terms of the Tyranid army. I would hazard to say that GW sold many many more Tyranid Monstrous creature kits to support the Rise of Nidzilla than they would have from a more balanced codex. So how is that a failure for them? They sold "big critter" kits to people with "horde army" set ups. Sounds like an Economic Win for the Accounting Department, which will end up giving the marching orders to the creative lackeys, which includes the developers. THinking that Fluff drives design denies the basic function of GW.

They wanted to make Nidzilla an option for players, but I *guarantee* you they never saw it becoming anything more than a niche within Tyranids, like Deathwing are to SM. It's blatently clear from the codex that Phil K. was trying to bring back synapse-focused horde play. He just made some design missteps which synergized and snowballed.

I will lay a sizable sum of money that the studio never intended Tyranids to be built around shooting and MCs, and that they'll jump at the opportunity to fix that. And don't underestimate the designers' role in things. I've been told they have a very collaborative relationship with the business side, and therefore have much more say than we think. Methinks they'll see Tyranids as a unique fixer-upper opportunity while the business folks obviously see $$$.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's pendulum game design at its finest, and really, I welcome a return to Tyranids being a Horde army... as long as they fix the fething Venom Cannon and allow it to Pen vehicles.

IMO, Phil K.'s biggest mistake was being too respectful of the great Andy C.'s 3rd ed. codex. More eggs -- Warriors, Lictors, Hormagaunt pricing, VCs, etc. -- needed to be broken instead of being barely tweaked or left alone.

I hope Phil gets the chance to do the new one, as I think he'd now have a pretty good handle on what went wrong and what needs fixed.