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yeah,
Agree'd.

"Charging what the plastic is worth" line has probabily been around a while. Look at the plastic WrathLord. It's also what probabily what got the hive city removed from PE set and sold separately. they'll pay loads for these, they need them!

PAnic...

warboss wrote:lol, you need to look at a codex you've bought from the past 5 years! you're already doing it. their quote on "charging what the plastic is worth" is a gem that i will remember for years to come as i avoid new plastic kits.

But don't you know that these are FANCY toys??? ()

Cane wrote:
Oh man I hate that plastics quote; definitely does not look good for future elite choices since they'll likely be as expensive as the Goldswords. This could mean that a 10 man plastic Stormtrooper box could retail over $40 like their metal counterparts...good god.

Given what you've pointed out with the Goldsword debacle and the quote in the 2009 results?

I think it is almost a guarantee that 10 Stortroopers with cost $40, minimum.

And unless they are light years better than the Cadian versions that are already out in metal? I won't be getting them, even though I prefer working with plastics...

To be a little optimistic, FW outsourcing to China might actually improve things.
There is the joke that their quality can't get worse, but that might be partially true. A lot of warping and other issues seem to be due to FW rushing things out of the molds before they completely set. We may find that when capacity constraints are relaxed quality control becomes more important that expediting things out the door.
Hopefully this increase in capacity will also improve order turn around time, at least for the older models that seem to take months to receive.

I definitely agree that GW is barking up the wrong tree with the Lexus of the miniature world business strategy. With the rise of internet commerce the notion that a company can charge huge margins for inexpensive products through their company store while preventing other sales outlets from selling at a sharp discount is foolish in the extreme. GW ought to start thinking volume when it comes to paying off those expensive steel molds, not control of a supply chain. The vertical integration model works exceedingly poorly for nearly all industries.

Good I hate my self for saying this; maybe GW should follow the Wal-Mart model. By selling their product cheaper than their competitors GW will make a profit off higher volume.

Why maybe Wal-Mart will not work.
I just not sure how saturated the market is. Think how many armies you have now vs. how many armies you plan on buying.
If you only need to buy a couple of new figs and a codex every couple of years how are GW going to make more profits.

BrookM wrote:Oh-hohoho, just wait until John barges in.

Assuming that this is me, no surprises.

GW moves some labor-based FW production to China, which is the smart thing to do when their UK production is swamped with orders, and the GBP keep pouring into GWHQ. Perhaps this explains why my buddy's FW Repressors fit *perfectly* on the Rhinos. Aside, I expect to see black market FW stuff appear out of HK in real quantity. Heh, heh.

GW raised prices, and the sheep went along, so naturally, GW has a lot more profit. Good job, sheep!


Personally, I have a very short buy list (e.g. Warhound Titan, new Jetbikes) that is waiting on plastics, and these price hikes only make it shorter and less urgent. I'm very glad I bought before GW pricing got completely stupid.

Still, maybe there's a Class 1 Warhound Titan waiting for me in Hong Kong...

Wehrkind wrote:I definitely agree that GW is barking up the wrong tree with the Lexus of the miniature world business strategy. With the rise of internet commerce the notion that a company can charge huge margins for inexpensive products through their company store while preventing other sales outlets from selling at a sharp discount is foolish in the extreme.

GW has never really embraced the internet age. Else they'd be promoting and hyping their products countless new ways. Instead, they're cutting off the flow of information even to their own events and still trying to ride that tired, broken-down old nag named White Dwarf.

I give them credit for their growth over the years and for staying afloat through two recessions this decade. And I want them to remain a strong company. But IMO the thinking coming from the top of the company is getting more outdated all the time, and I believe they will pay for it eventually if they stay stuck in 1991.

Xyxox wrote:Given that FW will be outsourcing manufacturing to China, production costs in that division should decrease which is good for the investor. Production quality may suffer which is bad for the consumer.

Cane wrote:Interesting to note that Forgeworld is outsourcing to China although I doubt that means a reduction in prices. Guess it was only a matter of time before their cheap labor was exploited, perhaps this will be a major step into penetrating that market? Also could potentially lead to cheap knock offs appearing on the market.

AlexCage wrote:Grraaaagh... Forge World Outsourcing to China?! I'm scared. The optimist in me says the casting quality can't get WORSE, and this just means much quicker turnaround times on orders. Unfortunately the Cynic in me has beaten the optimist to death and is screaming in rage, covered in optimistic blood.

Guys, FW has *already* outsourced work to China. When GW says they "have implemented a new resin cell", it means that the molds and production is already in place in China. It means that yes, FW whatnots are being cast by Chinese labor.

What is laughable to me is the notion that quality will drop below UK levels. You guys are aware that the Chinese manufacture most "Japanese" computerized electronics, along with Boeing aerospace parts, right? The overall Chinese build quality should be superior to anything ever produced in the UK or America - assuming GW HQ doesn't mandate any shortcuts...

AlexCage wrote:First thought that pops into my head is that the Blastscape was a little foray into China mass production, to test the waters. I know, vacu-form vs. resin, not the same thing, but I keep thinking about the AWESOME Resin masters of the Blastscape and I just get pissed off. If FW quality takes a hit of that magnitude they'll be wiped off the map.

Blastscape quality was a GW decision to drive cost to the floor, at the expense of quality, not a China one. Lay the blame for that at the proper feet.

Tealzooka: I think that market saturation is actually a pretty key issue. However, I think it is being looked at the wrong way. I think the saturation issue is more due to price than anything else. I think that dropping the price level 50% would increase volume by far more than 200%.
The basis for this is that many customers, if not 100%, are either collectors of miniatures and fluff or army builders. That seems to be an obvious point, but consider for a moment if you wouldn't find yourself buying some cool models just to have if they were pretty inexpensive, or putting together a small army of a race you had a neat idea for.
To look at it a different way, consider your personal tipping point for when you would buy a used miniature vs a new in box one. I personally am quite happy to get Sisters of Battle with caked on paint for 2$ a pop instead of 5$. Plastic marines, however, had better be pretty darned cheap before making me decide the boxed set isn't worth picking up.
It is my contention that if GW charged 1-2$ a model for say infantry (Marines, Guard whatever) we would see the secondary market plummet as people decide that selling used for .25-1$ per model wasn't worth it. I think people would quite happily keep a 1500 point army they are not really loving if they were only likely to get 50$ for it, and just hope the next codex was better. If they could get 100$ or more, and a new army cost 300$, they are more likely to scrimp and save while selling more aggressively.
Essentially it boils down to impulse buying and opportunity cost. Why spend hours shopping for a better deal when you can get a new kit for just a little more money? And why sell an army that looks cool and you might want to play later when it wouldn't even buy you a new DVD?

Further, as I stated above, more models in more people's hands encourages them to try and play the game they bought them for, and that presupposes having friends that play. No one proselytizes for a game more fervently than someone who wants someone to play against.

Wehrkind for president of GW 2010!!

What is laughable to me is the notion that quality will drop below UK levels. You guys are aware that the Chinese manufacture most "Japanese" computerized electronics, along with Boeing aerospace parts, right? The overall Chinese build quality should be superior to anything ever produced in the UK or America - assuming GW HQ doesn't mandate any shortcuts...

Very true, and the stereotype is quite stale in all honesty. What happens in China may stay in China, but that has nothing to do with the quality of their labor.

Can...You...Say...Propaganda....

I mean hell, it's not like the country hosted the Olympics recently or anything...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
What is laughable to me is the notion that quality will drop below UK levels. You guys are aware that the Chinese manufacture most "Japanese" computerized electronics, along with Boeing aerospace parts, right? The overall Chinese build quality should be superior to anything ever produced in the UK or America - assuming GW HQ doesn't mandate any shortcuts...

Thats not always true. YOu really have to watch them over there. Some of the "improvements" they tried to make on their own on some of the products I have in stock have backfired badly. And the importer had to ride them hard to get them to change back.

They CAN do good work. Superior is pushing it. But their also capabile of taking nasty shortcuts of lead red paint in toys, tainted milk, substandard sheetrock like in florida homes and other nasty suprises.

No different from anything made here or in the UK.

Heck, I still remembered when British-built cars were shipped to the US... Pre-Ford, a Jag was a luxury car for the well-to-do because you needed to buy a second one to drive while the first was in the shop... Or how the Ford guys were amazed how the Jags couldn't make it around the durability track without parts literally falling off the car...

And then there's the whole debacle of MGs and Triumphs and so forth, how you needed to be a weekend mechanic just to drive the car during the week...

And don't get me started on Chrysler. I completely agree with Jeremey Clarkson when he pronounces it "the worst car in the entire world."

I agree the volume would increase by tons if the prices were lower. This is all just my opinion but, even though I hate paying the high prices for newer stuff, i also kinda like it. Yes I am crazy, but still.

For me personally, if models were cheaper, I'd have boxes and boxes of unopened, unpainted stuff, half-finished armies that will never see a tabletop, etc. With the more premium price we have now, I'm forced to plan ahead for my purchases or new armies I plan to start and I focus on just what I want instead of buying every cool new hunk of plastic that comes along.

I think this hobby when compared to many others is definitely affordable if you don't go overboard, and stick to one or a couple of armies instead of buying everything you see. I mean, seriously... do you need 7 different armies? (Yes I'm a hypocrate, as I have 7 different armies )

That being said, I'm still glad I purchased the majority of my models years ago when they were cheaper

Frazzled wrote:They are worth what you will pay for them, simple as that. GW believes they can make higher cash flows via margin vs. volume. Period. I'm ok with that. No one makes me buy their stuff.

I will say this. I will never buy Chinese manufactured crap from GW.

might want to check out those boxes you've bought recently.. I think it's already happening..

those moonscape terrain things are a prime example of chinese manufacturing at it's finest (hmm, that's not the word I'm really looking for)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Miguelsan wrote:
Remember that Red Shirts get their information with one year delay

M.

Naw, redshirts just parrot the same things their braindead managers parrot from their managers who parrot whatever the regional manager tells them to say and he's being told by the retail sales manager.

The sales manager started out telling the regional manager that the movie tin cup received a higher rating due to the fact that kevin costner requested more money due to him actually having to play with metal clubs and not woods... As you can see, it only took 4 retellings of this story to turn it into tin prices going up on metal miniatures.

Hehe I see your point Necros. I am fortunate enough to only really lust after 40k armies, not WHFB as well, and then only a few.
Still, I would have a tyranid army and a completely non-functional eldar army, both still in the boxes most likely, if they were cheaper. Not to mention orks and about 500 various marines... :-P

I find it funny that people keep thinking that GW will lower prices.

FW moving to China? Maybe they will lower prices.
Changing from metal to plastic? Maybe GW will lower prices.

People, GW will not lower prices. You need to come to that realization.

We are in the middle of a recession, and what are they doing? Raising prices! Not only that, but they are raising them by $.25 and such so that next year when they raise the prices by $.75 it does not feel like that much of a change.

Also when was the last time you saw a GW sale? Yeah, that is what I thought. In fact they are going in the other direction and stopping internet retailers who offer their products below retail.

Then we can get into the many stealth price increases that the marketing weasels do. For example instead of selling a box of 20 miniatures for $35 they change the packaging so that they sell 10 minis for $20. Then they do things like sell you a box of 5 minis with a squad leader type so that you need to buy 2 boxes and have extra minis so that you can have a squad of 10.

I want GW to do badly every year so that they can take a good hard look in the mirror and figure out what they are doing wrong, and how they are alienating their customer base.

I for one am pretty surprised at the financials. Holding steady is impressive considering Hobby Games as a whole continues to shrink. It's surprising especially because GW is heavily reliant on essentially two IP's (Warhammer, 40k) and one license (LoTR).

I'd love to know what the long term business plan - does GW think that minis are the way to go? Are they going to expand their current IP's into new genres? Are they going to develop anything new IP wise? I don't have a particular answer myself, because I don't know the real ins and outs of their business, but GW has a lot of interesting decisions to make in the coming years.

Blackmoor wrote:I want GW to do badly every year so that they can take a good hard look in the mirror and figure out what they are going wrong and alienating their customers.

I'd support that idea if not for the fact that GW's reaction to bad turn-over is the exact same as their reaction to good turn-over:

Raise prices!

If things are going well, they think it's because they raised the prices, so they raise them.
If things are going badly, they think it's because they're not making enough money, so they raise the prices.

And if they break even, they'll raise the prices again.

It does have to be said that games workshop as a whole does not generate huge profit for its shareholders, considering they do generate £125..m. In this financial year alone and even at that age still only managed to make 5.5m profit.

For example it will not be long before its royalties will soon out strip its profit, which if you read the report they are in no doubt fully aware of the potential.

Games workshop will always be a niche within a niche relying on new customers spending their ill gotten gains. for as long as physically possible

Forgeworld's quality can only go up when they outsource to China...

And their customer service can only go down, which is just astounding.

All I can say is: Wait until GW outsources their call center to India.

Hello?

Hello?

If FW does that someone might actually answer the phone.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If FW does that someone might actually answer the phone.

Quite true, those Indian call centers answer the phone quickly - you might not be able to understand them but the phone will be answered quickly, so net net the same result for FW customer service.

carmachu wrote:They CAN do good work. Superior is pushing it. But their also capabile of taking nasty shortcuts of lead red paint in toys, tainted milk, substandard sheetrock like in florida homes and other nasty suprises.

And when do you think the Chinese start taking those nasty shortcuts?. In most cases when the London, New York, LA corporates start cutting corners on them.

M.

Miguelsan wrote:And when do you think the Chinese start taking those nasty shortcuts?. In most cases when the London, New York, LA corporates start cutting corners on them.

Or when they think they can get away with it.

The phrase 'charge what their worth' is rarely if ever related to 'charge what it costs + margin'.

They charge what people will pay, like every other company in the world.

Personally, I think it's hilarious how much cheaper I can get individual old metal models from Ebay than their modern counterparts from the store. And these are 20+ year old models with supposed collector value.

I can literally get three Commissars from 1988 for the same price as one from 2007. And the former are in significantly smaller supply. Metal Squats these days are cheaper than Kasrkin. Collecting OOP miniatures has become a way to save money, as opposed to spending it.

My plastikrack budget now is about $25 a month, so the few purchases I'll be making will most likely be force multiplier stuff, not as many whole units. I keep waffling between wanting to quit and being awed by the next new thing. I'm hopeless.

on the note of china production, many good points in reguards to other sectors which source from there. Most model companies source from china, Dragon models are by far the best model company for quality and they source thier kits from china. Ok you may pay through the nose but its bloody worth it (if your a display model builder with an addiction to perfect details like myself)

GW are trying to be clever here, by blinding us fans with facy flower smiley words. Afterall its a corperation. Margins and Shareholders are what head office are about. Your looking at the driving force behind much of what GW does and its gotta be brutal and put on a good show for investors. Not to take away from thier overall good work this last year and thier ever increasing quality in product.
As much as we whine and moan and laugh when GW listens and takes actiuons. They are doing what a large market leading company does. They are going to do everything to stay on top and create those solid GW fans who will spit at anything that has a PP logo or a rackham logo on it.
I don't blame them. Another example is going back to Dragon models.
They were a relatively good company when they started into doing 35th scale military models, They smashed aside many long time top companies by introducting add-on kits WITH the regular model kit. So i pay 50 Sterling for a King Tiger tank, But with that i get a turned metal gun barrel, brass etched grills and fixings, and even resin alternative wheels and gun mantlet.

GW are doing similar by creating the GW hobby world. where the store is a one stop shop and independents and 3rd party products are as un-cool as visiting a fossil convention

Anyway. Enough of this babble from me
BoW- John