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My bad....3+ armor/4+ cover....it was really late when I posted

Monstrous Creatures can't go to ground. Page 51.

Elessar wrote:lol

Yeah, you outrange the Lasguns...while your Plasma Grenades bounce off his Chimeras. He sticks a single Heavy Flamer up your face, and you crumple and die.

the idea of having jump troops with a 24" assault gun....... is not to be in flamer range ever....... and Haywire grenades do great against vehicles.....

However this is Eldar, you will never find a single squad that can do everything, and certainly not a single squad that can take on every aspect of an army by itself, but Swooping Hawks, Halequins, and Wraithguard are as close as some units get..........

No, because the Haywire Grenades dilute their purpose. Can't use them from 24" away, and you can't fly away from a wall of Chimeras indefinitely.

My point being, Hawks are neither specialised, nor optimised, for ANY role. So they're crap.

Well, Hawks can be fun to play.
However, they are not good in any role you try to give them.
Leave them home.
DE has a similar unit: Hellions.

*Cough Scourges, Warp Beasts, Mandrakes, Grotesques, Talos Cough*

Elessar wrote:*Cough Scourges, Warp Beasts, Mandrakes, Grotesques, Talos Cough*

The ratio of playable Eldar units is much higher than that of playable DE squads.

Another question for you all?

What's your opinion of Muagen Ra? Is he good to use?

Euraldius wrote:Another question for you all?

What's your opinion of Muagen Ra? Is he good to use?

That was my question, euraldius has auto-login on my computer and I forgot to log out.

Maugan Ra is one of the better PL's but still he's too expensive for what he can achieve.
This is the problem with all the PL's.
Use them in friendly play but leave them out in a competitive environment.

wuestenfux wrote:Maugan Ra is one of the better PL's but still he's too expensive for what he can achieve.
This is the problem with all the PL's.
Use them in friendly play but leave them out in a competitive environment.

So I'm getting the impression that none of them are that great.
Which PL do you think is best?

The usable ones are Karandras with outflanking Scorpions,
Maugan Ra sticked to Dark Reapers, and
Jain Zar that works with Banshees and with Harlequins.

So Asuryan sucks?

Asurmen, but yeah.

His InvulSave is nice, especially being an Eternal Warrior and all...but not competitive outside of a very specific, OTP list.

Now, if PLs didn't take up a FoC slot...

Personally I like most of the Phoenix Lords but I find 99% of the time they work better in different unit then their aspect.

Maugan Ra is one of my favourite HQ's. He has one of the best guns in the game the Maugatar (Aka Assault Cannon with 36" range) and he is BS7 (2+ to hit with a 5+ reroll). Give that he also has the power to reroll wounds and ignore cover he is a scary guy (note i rarely if ever use fast shot unless I'm aiming at doomed unit in the open) . Also his gun doubles up as a power weapon that give a +2str bonus, so thats 4 str6 power weapon attacks being made with WS7 at I7.
Ra works best in the following units ....

Wraith guard. They're T6 so he'll be safer against shooting, and he can help them out in CC.
Harlequin troupe*. He can soften up a unit without much chance of return fire (veil of tears) and can help out in CC
Pathfinder*s. They have stealth so he gets +1 to his cover save while he's with them.
Support Weapon Battery*. These guys are an odd choice in them selves but if you're using them he can join them and shoot at something else.
(*Danger they may run)

Now if you don't take any of those units then i can see why you wouldn't like him.

He has to shoot the same target if in the unit.

Elessar wrote:He has to shoot the same target if in the unit.

Ha some one hasn't kept up to date with the rules. In 5th Artillery guns can shoot at one target and every one else can shoot at some thing different.

I've been playing with Maugan Ra for a while... and he can be frustrating, or awesome.

Tri hit many of the salient points, but there is an upside to putting him with units that can run away: he increases their leadership to 10, making them much more resilient.

One thing that I love to do with him that Tri did not bring up is the utility of using him without a unit. His lack of an invulnerable save makes him strangely fragile for a 200 point unit, however, his 2+ armor and Eternal Warrior means that you can put him out on his own to increase your opponent's difficulties for target priority.

Since he's a threat to nearly any unit in the game, his chance of ruining your opponent's plans might be low (trying to rely on rending for pens is yuck...) but the fact that he has the capability of killing a squad of pathfinders one turn then downing a wraithlord the next (just an example) means that he can distract from the rest of your army, and is ignored only at your opponent's peril.

But, since he is an independent character if your opponent starts to seriously threaten him, he jumps back into a "safe" unit, like pathfinders or harlequins, where it makes both the unit and himself seriously more durable against ranged fire.

I stopped playing with him for a while, since he does cost so many points... but I put him back into my list last night and did not regret it.

Oh wow. I had only read the Artillery page once in it's entirety before, somehow I missed that...possibly whilst discounting them as viable in serious play. Hmmm.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Luckily I can edit that in my Eldar Artillery assessment in my Complete Guide To The Eldar.

Elessar wrote:Oh wow. I had only read the Artillery page once in it's entirety before, somehow I missed that...possibly whilst discounting them as viable in serious play. Hmmm.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Luckily I can edit that in my Eldar Artillery assessment in my Complete Guide To The Eldar.

I use them quite a bit. Shadow Weavers are stupidly cheap 90pts and I get 3 Str6 blasts a turn, at 48" ... deploy them in the middle behind some terrain and they can hit every thing. IG, orks and Nids hate them.

Elessar wrote:Oh wow. I had only read the Artillery page once in it's entirety before, somehow I missed that...possibly whilst discounting them as viable in serious play. Hmmm.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Luckily I can edit that in my Eldar Artillery assessment in my Complete Guide To The Eldar.

Maybe gives the Shock Attack Gun some utility as well, if you put him with a lobba/kannon battery.

A little. Majority T still applies, ofc.

Few notes on the PLs - their squad based powers (karandras' stealth, M. Ra's night vision) only apply to their aspect, so you cannot add karandras to a conceal'd wraithguard unit to get a 4+ cover.

Pathfinders are useful in a mixed or foot list due to their nature as bait. The only way an enemy is going to shift them off an objective effectively is with a thunderfire cannon or by walking up to them and flaming/assaulting them. You can exploit this to lure your opponent into fragmenting his army, and using the eldar's superior mobility to squash the separated element with ease. I use a unit of warp spiders in my back field to murder DPing marines with flamers, and the rear armor of any vehicles.

Gwyidion wrote:Few notes on the PLs - their squad based powers (karandras' stealth, M. Ra's night vision) only apply to their aspect, so you cannot add karandras to a conceal'd wraithguard unit to get a 4+ cover.

Cry, number of times people get this wrong. Firstly Acute vision and Stealth are not exarch powers. Secondly Acute vision is explicitly past on to any unit joined while the character is with them. Thirdly Stealth is conferred to scorpions but stealth automatically adds +1 to the units cover save if one person in a unit has it.

Tri wrote:

Elessar wrote:Oh wow. I had only read the Artillery page once in it's entirety before, somehow I missed that...possibly whilst discounting them as viable in serious play. Hmmm.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Luckily I can edit that in my Eldar Artillery assessment in my Complete Guide To The Eldar.

I use them quite a bit. Shadow Weavers are stupidly cheap 90pts and I get 3 Str6 blasts a turn, at 48" ... deploy them in the middle behind some terrain and they can hit every thing. IG, orks and Nids hate them.

That's a nice strategy, but it brings up another question. How do all of you use D-cannons, if at all?

D-Cannons are not really use able outside of Apocalypses (possibly planet strike but i have yet to try them here). They have very short range but will kill any thing that come within that range. If you were to use them I would hunker them down on your home objective with a CC unit.

while on the subject Vibro-Cannons. Take a unit of 2 and place them on a flank (or 2 units of 2 one each flank). And sit you army back and wait for them to come to you. Reason you only take 2 is its the optimum number for them. Odds of hitting are 3/4 and every unit they pass through take D6 Str5 hits (and it will stun or shake any vehicles)

The GW eldar FAQ states that the PL powers only affect aspect warriors (and since they can only join AW of their aspect, Karandras' stealth power only affects striking scorpion units). Even at places I have played which usually don't pay attention to rules or rulings not in the codex/BRB, this is how it is played - you can't improve a conceal save on a wraithguard unit with karandras.


The D-cannons and other weapon platforms are really nice, especially D-cannons and the way they generate a 24" bubble of dont-go-here.... but they compete with other great HS choices, and I find myself taking wraithlords instead of the guns.

Gwyidion wrote:The GW eldar FAQ states that the PL powers only affect aspect warriors (and since they can only join AW of their aspect, Karandras' stealth power only affects striking scorpion units). Even at places I have played which usually don't pay attention to rules or rulings not in the codex/BRB, this is how it is played - you can't improve a conceal save on a wraithguard unit with karandras.


The D-cannons and other weapon platforms are really nice, especially D-cannons and the way they generate a 24" bubble of dont-go-here.... but they compete with other great HS choices, and I find myself taking wraithlords instead of the guns.

Go back to the FAQ and reread it. The FAQ is talking about Exarch powers, these can only effect their aspect. How ever Acute Vision(or what ever its call. senses?) and Stealth are not exarch powers. So in turn they are not restricted.

The question asks about exarch powers, the answer says "Their powers only affects [sic] units of aspect warriors". As stealth and acute senses fall under 'their powers'... they only have an effect on aspect warriors. I suppose in this document that is correcting ambiguities you could argue that they really meant their exarch powers, but the answer says powers, so i think that it means exactly what it says.

(full text)
Q
"As Phoenix Lords are not exarchs, but independant characters, do their exarch powers (Shadowstrike, skyleap, etc.) affect units other than aspect warriors?"
A
"Their powers only affects units of Aspect Warriors."

"Their" being the PLs.... Phoenix Lord powers only affect units of aspect warriors. If they wanted non-exarch powers to affect non-aspect units, they would have said "Their exarch powers only affect units of Aspect Warriors"... but they didn't say that.

So the answer is poorly worded... but the question is specifically about exarch powers, not about the other abilities of the Phoenix Lords.