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Elessar wrote:Again, agreed.

Apart from that though, spot on, with the omission of Yriel. He usually manages to net enough kills, and have an off-table presence, with on-table threat, to be cost-effective. Eldrad isn't overpriced, he's pretty much ok. Autarchs should be added to the list though.

I think this is where your eldar failings come from. Yriel is a greatr HQ choice, in 4th edition. I've looked at him and in 5th edition he's not among the best HQ choices Eldar can take. Eldar do not succeed going unit to unit against 5th edition army lists. That's 4th edition thinking. Eldar need to work together to compound their strength vs. the enemy. Farseer's and the Avatar do that, Yriel does not. He's designed to get thrown into the enemy and kill a bunch of points. That's great for him, but bad for your army as the rest of it is ripped up by the enemy. The Farseer and Avatar both improve your army units, increasing their survivability and also increasing thier damage potential. It's your other unit choices that need the help those two can provide. Yriel does not help them.

Err, Yriel adds the usual +1 to reserves, has a power weapon that always wounds on a 2, can bomb large groups of enemy units and has some decent ranged anti-tank. He seems pretty damn useful all-around to me.

How is the avatar better exactly? Especially in a mech list.

number9dream wrote:Err, Yriel adds the usual +1 to reserves, has a power weapon that always wounds on a 2, can bomb large groups of enemy units and has some decent ranged anti-tank. He seems pretty damn useful all-around to me.

How is the avatar better exactly? Especially in a mech list.

My premise is that foot lists are better than Mech lists. The Avatar makes all the Eldar units nearby fearless, which is invaluable in a foot list. He also benifits from the Farseer's fortune ability to make him nearly invulnerable.

Everything you've said about Yriel is true. But you also have to admit he is a guided missile unit which can not help the survivability of any other eldar unit in the game. He would be great if the Eldar were more survivable on their own, but they're not. Yriel needs to get to the fight which means more points taken from your army list to get him there.

Yriel can be used to provide support to Fire Dragons as a suicide bomb.

He's not the most cost-effective of the HQs, but he's better because he has a duality Farseers cannot provide, adding a CC element that every army needs. Is he better than a regular Autarch? Debatable. Once that Autarch has a Fusion Gun, it's hard to argue they're not equal, at least.

Avatars are slow, force you to play a certain way, attract more than enough firepower to down them, and are one-dimensional. Are they quite cost-effective, yes. Do they have any role in a non-Foot list though? No. There is simply no reasonable way to splash them, because if there's one thing worse than a Foot Eldar List, it's a Semi-Mech Eldar list.

Talking about using units in concert is obviously correct, and there's no other decent way to use them. However, most units in the Codex aren't even able to perform an equivalent role to older (and equivalent) Codicies. Sisters of Battle vs Dire Avengers? SoBs come out on top. Scorpions vs PAGK? GJBs vs Ravenwing Attack Squadrons? Dark Reapers vs Lootas? Of course, I can find many more examples, so can you - the point is that they shouldn't be outclassed by everything since, AND things before as well.

As for Eldar Failings? I've lost twice with the list, against a variant of Stelek's 'Best Of Marines' that used Vulkan over a MotF, and dropped a few Scouts. I'm sure you know it. The player who used it is roughly as good as I - making my actual skill level irrelevant, as we had roughly equivalent skill levels - and his list destroyed mine. Usually, we have tight games ending in draws, I've beaten him 4 times in our last ten, but never by a good margin...the two losses I had only slightly below average luck in the early game, and I got trounced.

Against good players you will occasionally get a unit isolated, the main problem I'm trying to highlight here is that when that DOES happen, Eldar will always lose out. At the minute only Necrons and Tyranids have common units that don't terribly worry Eldar units on foot - EVERY other Codex is superior, even DE.

Yriel was amazing in 4th...he's merely average in 5th. But, for the Eldar, average is as good as it gets. (excluding, of course, Fire Dragons, who are still the best anti-tank in the game.)

Elessar wrote:Yriel can be used to provide support to Fire Dragons as a suicide bomb.

He's not the most cost-effective of the HQs, but he's better because he has a duality Farseers cannot provide, adding a CC element that every army needs. Is he better than a regular Autarch? Debatable. Once that Autarch has a Fusion Gun, it's hard to argue they're not equal, at least.

Avatars are slow, force you to play a certain way, attract more than enough firepower to down them, and are one-dimensional. Are they quite cost-effective, yes. Do they have any role in a non-Foot list though? No. There is simply no reasonable way to splash them, because if there's one thing worse than a Foot Eldar List, it's a Semi-Mech Eldar list.

Talking about using units in concert is obviously correct, and there's no other decent way to use them. However, most units in the Codex aren't even able to perform an equivalent role to older (and equivalent) Codicies. Sisters of Battle vs Dire Avengers? SoBs come out on top. Scorpions vs PAGK? GJBs vs Ravenwing Attack Squadrons? Dark Reapers vs Lootas? Of course, I can find many more examples, so can you - the point is that they shouldn't be outclassed by everything since, AND things before as well.

As for Eldar Failings? I've lost twice with the list, against a variant of Stelek's 'Best Of Marines' that used Vulkan over a MotF, and dropped a few Scouts. I'm sure you know it. The player who used it is roughly as good as I - making my actual skill level irrelevant, as we had roughly equivalent skill levels - and his list destroyed mine. Usually, we have tight games ending in draws, I've beaten him 4 times in our last ten, but never by a good margin...the two losses I had only slightly below average luck in the early game, and I got trounced.

Against good players you will occasionally get a unit isolated, the main problem I'm trying to highlight here is that when that DOES happen, Eldar will always lose out. At the minute only Necrons and Tyranids have common units that don't terribly worry Eldar units on foot - EVERY other Codex is superior, even DE.

Yriel was amazing in 4th...he's merely average in 5th. But, for the Eldar, average is as good as it gets. (excluding, of course, Fire Dragons, who are still the best anti-tank in the game.)

Fair enough.

Yrial with a Squad of Warlocks w/ Enhance etc. in a Wave serpent that recieves Fortune is probably one of the more brutal H t H combat units.


Why yes, I can center this blast on top of my own models they all get rerollable invulns.

thank you.

Hollismason wrote:Yrial with a Squad of Warlocks w/ Enhance etc. in a Wave serpent that recieves Fortune is probably one of the more brutal H t H combat units.


Why yes, I can center this blast on top of my own models they all get rerollable invulns.

thank you.

Even better when he charges something solo, and due to the enemy's counter attack, they are all nice and tightly bunched around him base to base. Perfect for an Eye of Wrath.

Wow, I do not know where to start.

Elessar wrote:

Essentially, I think a lot of people need to realize that, as bad as the Tactical Squad is considered to be, EVERY Eldar Troop is twice as bad, or worse.

Wow…Eldar quietly have some of the best troops in the game. They have Wraithguard which are very, very durable as well as Pathfinders that you have to kill with a 2+ cover save. You have jetbikes with the 6” assault move means that they can also be a pain to kill, but configured properly can be a great all-around unit and they are also the fastest troop unit in the game. Guardians are cheap and can move and shoot a heavy weapon and lay down a lot of firepower if the enemy gets within 12”. Dire Avengers are one of my least favorite troops.

Hollismason wrote:I think it’s because people have pigeonholed themselves with the Eldar codex into believing there are only a few viable competitive builds.


I still think that Viable builds will become more and more available as more people branch out from trying to play one certain way.

Amen brother!

Elessar wrote:Sadly, I'm in full accord with Willy here...there's so little depth in the Eldar Dex, and it seems to shrink every 6 months more.

Wow…I am just the opposite! Each time I open the book I see units that I had not thought about before and I am starting to like. For example: Warp Spiders, and Dark Reapers with the Tempest Launcher.

Hollismason wrote:
HQ
Avatar
Warlocks

Elites
Fire Dragons
Banshees

Troops
Dire Avengers

Fast Attack
None

H. Support
War Walkers
Fire Prism

I must be doing something wrong, because from that list I only like the Avatar and War Walkers.

DarthDiggler wrote:Apparently Allan is having success with his Eldar in Florida and California and I'm having success in Illinois. I'd like to see Allan's batrep against Shep's Guard. His foot eldar did beat a good guard army.

Well I am in AZ now and not Florida anymore.

I will post my game with Sheps mech IG as soon as he responds to my PM requesting his army list.

I will try to get up my games from last week tonight.

DarthDiggler wrote:
My premise is that foot lists are better than Mech lists. The Avatar makes all the Eldar units nearby fearless, which is invaluable in a foot list. He also benefits from the Farseer's fortune ability to make him nearly invulnerable.

The Avatar is worth his weight in gold in my list. Not only to make everyone fearless, but he is a great counter assault unit and he often kills a lot of vehicles.

I am thinking about dropping Eldrad from my list because I find myself going second a lot so I do not use his re-deploy, and he is seen as being a but cheesy. For the most part all I every use him for is to fortune my Avatar even though he does not get shot much, I worry that someone might realize that he is often my armies MVP and try to take him down.

Elessar wrote:
Talking about using units in concert is obviously correct, and there's no other decent way to use them. However, most units in the Codex aren't even able to perform an equivalent role to older (and equivalent) Codicies. Sisters of Battle vs. Dire Avengers? SoBs come out on top. Scorpions vs. PAGK? GJBs vs. Ravenwing Attack Squadrons? Dark Reapers vs. Lootas? Of course, I can find many more examples, so can you - the point is that they shouldn't be outclassed by everything since, AND things before as well.

You can’t do cross codex comparisons. Every codex has some unit that is better than what you have. What you do is look at army synergy, and build around that. Game #1 last week I played against Hulksmash’s Grey Knight army and I blew him off of the board.

Oh, and just to show you how wrong you are… (since that is one of my great joys here)
6 Grey Knights
1 Justicar
200 Points

9 Scorpions 3
1 Exarch 4
187 Points
Scorpions go first at Int 5 and hit 13.5 times and wound 6.75 times killing 2.25 Grey Knights. 4 Grey Knights swing back and hit 5.3 times, and wounding 4.44 times killing 1.48 scorpions. The Justicar swings and hits 2 times and wounds and kills 1.6 Scorpions. The Exarch swings with his claw and hits 1.5 times and kills 1.25 Grey Knights.

So, after a round of combat 3.5 Dead Grey Knights and 3.08 dead scorpions, and this is a best case scenario for the Grey Knights with them charging, and not having to pay any points and losing the strength 6 attacks from having special weapons in the squad (and being down 13 points).

Elessar wrote:
As for Eldar Failings? I've lost twice with the list, against a variant of Stelek's 'Best Of Marines' that used Vulkan over a MotF, and dropped a few Scouts. I'm sure you know it. The player who used it is roughly as good as I - making my actual skill level irrelevant, as we had roughly equivalent skill levels - and his list destroyed mine. Usually, we have tight games ending in draws, I've beaten him 4 times in our last ten, but never by a good margin...the two losses I had only slightly below average luck in the early game, and I got trounced.

I wonder what list is that. I have seen Edwin’s list and I could wipe that off the table. I am thinking about coming to Utah to visit friends in Nov. and stopping by to show Stelek and his crew where they might have errored in their thinking.

Yriel really isnt that good in 5th, if you are using him in some of these ways then I can well understand why you might think eldar are weak now.

Adding him to a unit of fire dragons? Total lack of synergy since the fire dragons are usually going to be suiciding while shooting heavy armor, and Yriel in a suicide run wants to be assaulting troops with saves of 3+ (if he is using the eye).
Sending him solo into a squad to use the eye? Thats 155 points of HQ that you are writing off to take out one squad of regular infantry?
Using him in a council squad is at least giving him a chance to survive, altho since its cc and the farseer being an IC would have to be in btb with the other squad too if possible you are risking a one shot kill on your farseer too. (thats going with the rerolled invuln save mentioned)

Yriel has a power weapon that wounds on 2+, thats far far more important than using his trick eye.

The bigger problem is that Yriel takes up an hq slot which could have gone to a farseer, an autarch (an autarch at 100 points gets a power weapon, fusion gun and haywire grenades) or possibly an avatar . Yriel plays well only in a council, he really doesnt improve any other squad. He has the same problem the phoenix lords have, too many points for what he does; Yriel can certainly be fun but in most lists hes just a light weight PL. There is very little he adds to a squad that a regular autarch doesnt add for a much cheaper cost.


And of course any list that is taking Yriel should already have Eldrad. Between the two there is no question, Eldrad is undercosted for what he adds while Yriel is average to perhaps somewhat overcosted.


Dont become locked into just a couple ideas for the eldar, eldar armies can be built around a wide variety of core ideas. Mechdar can work, elfzilla can work and yes other ideas can work too. Bike councils were not an obvious eldar build but they work very well indeed.

IG have a lot of shiny new toys, and may well be the army of the future....but its a little early to tell. SM certainly can be rough, but they do not autowin against the eldar. SMs probably do have the best (value per cost) IC in the game in Vulkan but Vulkan armies arent especially geared to defeat the eldar.


Its certainly possible that some eldar builds will lose often against certain other armies, but perhaps its more that the build needs to be adjusted or perhaps entirely remade.



Sliggoth

Here is the army I won the So Cal slaughter with:

My Army:
Headquarters
Eldrad
Avatar

Elite
6 Harlequins w/5 Kisses , 2 Fusion Pistols
Shadowseer w/Kiss
Troupe Leader w/Power Weapon

Troops
10 Guardians w/Brightlance
10 Guardians w/Brightlance
10 Guardians w/Brightlance

8 Dire Avengers

3 Guardian Jetbikes w/Shriken Cannon
Warlock w/Destructor, Singing Spear

Fast Attack
2 Vypers w/Brightlance

Heavy Support
3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers
3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers
3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers

How did your vypers perform the more I see them the more I like them honestly.

I am pretty in love with the bastard child space marine rip off.

Vyper EML w/ Shuriken Cannon x 2

As a support for jetbikes ; they seem alright.


150 points and has a 48 inch range. If needed it can move forward fire 2 blasts and 6 shots with the shuriken cannon.

Its a very nice platform and most people ignore them.

Hollismason wrote:How did your vypers perform the more I see them the more I like them honestly.

I am pretty in love with the bastard child space marine rip off.

Vyper EML w/ Shuriken Cannon x 2

As a support for jetbikes ; they seem alright.


150 points and has a 48 inch range. If needed it can move forward fire 2 blasts and 6 shots with the shuriken cannon.

Its a very nice platform and most people ignore them.

If your opponent is ignoring a high-firepower/low durability unit like Vypers he's doing it wrong.

As far as the viability of Eldar troops...

T3 and vulnerability to any sort of template weapon combined with very high points cost makes pathfinders less-than-optimal, especially with how dismal their firepower really is (again, considering their cost).

Wraithguard shoot 12" and move 6"... they can be useful as a bully unit, but they're easily outmaneuvered and out-ranged.

Guardians cost 8 pts per model for 5 pts per model worth of unit... they are not "cheap." 10 Guardians w/ bright lance= 110 points. 10 guardsmen with lascannon is more effective and just as "durable" as the guardians, and yet are what 70... maybe 75 points?

I think it's really stupid when I see people post "you have to use synergy with Eldar!!"

Guess what, synergy is not something that other races can't use, and in fact is more a hallmark of a well-played army than it is any particular army list. The fact of the matter is that other armies can use "synergy" to great effect... it's only the Eldar that have to in order to compete.

Hollismason wrote:How did your vypers perform the more I see them the more I like them honestly.

They did not do so well. No one likes brightlances, and Vypers are the first to go down.

I might put EML on them for the extra range and start them always in reserve, but I have not figured out what I am going to do with them yet.

Blackmoor wrote:
You can’t do cross codex comparisons. Every codex has some unit that is better than what you have. What you do is look at army synergy, and build around that. Game #1 last week I played against Hulksmash’s Grey Knight army and I blew him off of the board.

Oh, and just to show you how wrong you are… (since that is one of my great joys here)
6 Grey Knights
1 Justicar
200 Points

9 Scorpions 3
1 Exarch 4
187 Points
Scorpions go first at Int 5 and hit 13.5 times and wound 6.75 times killing 2.25 Grey Knights. 4 Grey Knights swing back and hit 5.3 times, and wounding 4.44 times killing 1.48 scorpions. The Justicar swings and hits 2 times and wounds and kills 1.6 Scorpions. The Exarch swings with his claw and hits 1.5 times and kills 1.25 Grey Knights.

So, after a round of combat 3.5 Dead Grey Knights and 3.08 dead scorpions, and this is a best case scenario for the Grey Knights with them charging, and not having to pay any points and losing the strength 6 attacks from having special weapons in the squad (and being down 13 points).

To be fair, Grey Knights in powered armour are horrible assault units. Despite being S6 and WS5, they're actually a shooty force. Their low number of attacks(especially since they don't really get that +1 on the charge... which sucks) and small unit size makes close combat a bad choice for the knights. Their real strength is that they wield arguably the best standard infantry weapon in the game, the Storm Bolter. PAGK are best at sitting back at mid range, picking away with SB/Psycannon fire, and then moving in to finish up only after they've cut down the enemy down to a managable size.

PAGK are NOT close combat units, and should never attempt to go for in for CC unless the opponent is either crap at CC or is at such small numbers that they can easily be destroyed right away. Proper use is all about judging when would be the best chance to actually assault. No good GK player would let his PAGKs get into combat with a real CC unit, they just aren't good at it.

If you want to compare CC units, try our Terminators or Grand Master. Those are meant to push forward and do the dirty work.

Eldar don't really have any units that can be compared to Grey Knights, since GK units are all about versatility

willydstyle wrote:
As far as the viability of Eldar troops...

T3 and vulnerability to any sort of template weapon combined with very high points cost makes pathfinders less-than-optimal, especially with how dismal their firepower really is (again, considering their cost).

Yes they are vulnerable to template weapons, but it is one thing to say that you are going to use it on them, and it is another to get it to them. It is hard to get a flamer across the board.

Wraithguard shoot 12" and move 6"... they can be useful as a bully unit, but they're easily outmaneuvered and out-ranged.

I have seen a lot of winning Eldar lists with Wraithguard. I refer you to this post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/246186.page
Once they get on an objective, they are very hard to get off. Also their durability helps in KP missions.

Guardians cost 8 pts per model for 5 pts per model worth of unit... they are not "cheap." 10 Guardians w/ bright lance= 110 points. 10 guardsmen with lascannon is more effective and just as "durable" as the guardians, and yet are what 70... maybe 75 points?

The grass isn’t always greener. You want to compare IG to Eldar, compare Elites and HQ units.

I think it's really stupid when I see people post "you have to use synergy with Eldar!!"

You need to have a focus with your army and you need to have units that fill rolls. War walkers can mow down infantry, but they struggle with anti-tank. So I have brightlances that never stop shooting, and other anti-tank options.

Guess what, synergy is not something that other races can't use, and in fact is more a hallmark of a well-played army than it is any particular army list. The fact of the matter is that other armies can use "synergy" to great effect... it's only the Eldar that have to in order to compete.

I disagree. I think the Eldar codex lends itself to synergy more than other codexes. Taking over powered and under costed units and running them at the enemy has nothing to do with synergy.

Blackmoor wrote:Here is the army I won the So Cal slaughter with:

My Army:
Headquarters
Eldrad
Avatar

Elite
6 Harlequins w/5 Kisses , 2 Fusion Pistols
Shadowseer w/Kiss
Troupe Leader w/Power Weapon

Troops
10 Guardians w/Brightlance
10 Guardians w/Brightlance
10 Guardians w/Brightlance

8 Dire Avengers

3 Guardian Jetbikes w/Shriken Cannon
Warlock w/Destructor, Singing Spear

Fast Attack
2 Vypers w/Brightlance

Heavy Support
3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers
3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers
3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers

How many points is this?

1850 Points

willydstyle wrote:I've started to run my Eldar as Counts-As IG Air Cav since they do everything so much better and cheaper.

You should have your eldar minis taken away for such a travesty; shame on you.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I've started to run my Eldar as Counts-As IG Air Cav since they do everything so much better and cheaper.

You should have your eldar minis taken away for such a travesty; shame on you.

Why? Sounds like an awesome use of counts as to me.

And Sliggy, you're obviously not going to suicide Yriel the first chance you get, but if you put him with the council, at some point he can detach and take out a 10+ man MEQ squad by himself. That counts for an awful lot depending on what turn it is, and I'm thinkin' around turn 4 or 5.

Blackmoor wrote:Here is the army I won the So Cal slaughter with:

My Army:
Headquarters
Eldrad
Avatar

Elite
6 Harlequins w/5 Kisses , 2 Fusion Pistols
Shadowseer w/Kiss
Troupe Leader w/Power Weapon

Troops
10 Guardians w/Brightlance
10 Guardians w/Brightlance
10 Guardians w/Brightlance

8 Dire Avengers

3 Guardian Jetbikes w/Shriken Cannon
Warlock w/Destructor, Singing Spear

Fast Attack
2 Vypers w/Brightlance

Heavy Support
3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers
3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers
3 War Walkers w/Scatter Lasers

When was this? I don't understand how this would deal with mech... All your BLs are on BS3 units and you have next to no melta. If it was recent, do you have battle reports up anywhere? I'd be interested in seeing them to get a better idea of how it worked out.

One thing I really don't get tho, is the 8 man DA unit. It seems so fragile, and it doesn't feel like it would do much - wouldn't 5 rangers or so be more useful?

Yriel in the council is the one tactic that I can agree with, yes if the right situation arises then he might want to suicide out of the council at the right moment. But thats not a tactic that was being mentioned, people wanted to attach him to fire dragons or have him fire off his eye while still in the council. Yes, the potential to have him split off and die needs to be remembered but its certainly not a reason to inculde him by itself.

Synergy is the effect the eldar get from their units working togehter and improving their overall output. Eldrad is the king of this kind of play, a regular farseer still is better than virtually any other army's choice for this multiplier effect. Autarchs also can add quite a bit to an army, especially if reserves are going to be used.

The firepower of many eldar units are good but not great.... until you add in the effect of guide and/ or doom. Eldrad using a couple of guides and a doom can turn even a unit og guardians into a killing machine, and I trust most of us are familiar with the effect of guide and war walkers. The only other army that can approach this level of flexibility is the new IG with their order system.


Again, if a particular eldar army list is having trouble perhaps its time to change the particulars of what you are bringing to the table rather than writing off the whole codex. Too many people remember how easily the eldar rolled over other armies a few years ago, its not an auto win anymore but its by no means an autol loss either.



Sliggoth

Blackmoor = I didn't say PAGK would beat Scorp. They are better against the things Scorps are 'good' against. I thought that was obvious.

If people don't know to shoot out the Avatar then they are crap players.


Sliggoth -
Yriel doesn't need to assault, if he's going to get assaulted. Put him in the opponent's way, and he will. Also, if he jumps out and kills a Rhino with his spear, it frees the FDs to shoot the contents, trashing a Scoring Unit of the enemy's for unimportant loss. If he gets to charge them, he finishes them off, so even better.

I suggest that perhaps if yuo can't see ANY good way to use Yriel other than in a Foot Council, an inherently awful unit due to costing half an army alone, then it is your failing.

ElfZilla CANNOT work competitively. It is a terrible list, and good players shouldn't struggle with it too much. While some lists are trumped by it, of course, there are more lists that put serious hurt on it than the other way around.


Blackmoor again - It's not really that hard to get a Flamer across the board at all. Land Speeders, Rhinos, Chimeras, Wave Serpents, Land Raiders, Raiders, SM Bike Squadrons, JetLocks, Raptors, CSM Bikes, CSM Rhinos, Chosen, Valkyries, Vendettas, Rough Riders, Immolators, Drop Pods, Razorbacks, Falcons, Wolf Scouts, Snikrot, Battlewagons, Trukks, Assault Squads, Hellhounds, BaneWolves, Devil Dogs...

There are a million and one ways to do it, and whilst not all are good, virtually none can be stopped by Pathfinders' shooting alone.

Synergy is all very well and good, but Eldar are a shooty army, and if a unit doesn't add shooty, then it needs to be a hell of a lot better at it's job than Pathfinders are to be considered top of the tree.

FYI, everyone, I don't consider Eldar to be BAD. Worse than SM, SW and IG, yes. No better than DE, WH or CSM, sure (CSM get a reprieve, because of the Obliterator, and the Plague Marine. Sadly they're too one-dimensional, making the Eldar look awesome in that respect, and will be the next Codex to drop from competitiveness, after Orks.)

The Space Wolf Dex will hurt us, because it puts us further down the pecking order. The Nid Codex will make Orks obsolete, and make Chaos the worst competitive list, with us only just above. The Nid Codex, at least, will prove my point about Foot Eldar, even if you still don't believe me after the Wolves. Necrons will probably oust Chaos from being competitive, and put us bottom of the heap...but that remains to be seen - and it is a year away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Sliggoth: Just because he's in their Transport doesn't mean he doesn't leave if that's obviously the right thing to do.

It shouldn't REALLY need stated.

I have been trying for a while to come up with something that works in the following

Small seer council -> 4 to 5 models

troops
?????
I want jetbikes

Elite
3 x 10 man Warp Spider Squads

H. Support
Fire prisms x 3


Basically I want to use the fire prisms for antitank and with 30 Warp Spiders you have 72 STR6 shots.

Having the Farseers fly around guiding the warpsiders and the warpspiders jumping back behind seer council tank squads or something.

I dunno I just want to field 30 warp spiders.

Small Seer Councils are worse than no Council. Seriously.

Elessar and Willy: usually I agree with you guys, but I'm sitting here laughing at the position you guys have taken on this thread.

You seem to be arguing on the one hand that only one army configuration (mech) and a small number of codex choices are effective, then arguing on the other hand that the mech army and the few units that you like don't actually work in competitive play anymore. Any time someone suggests an alternate army configuration, you shoot it down, then complain about how Eldar are no good anymore--or not as good as guard anyway. Anytime someone like Blackmoor (or I) presents a winning record with a nonstandard list, you argue that his opponents must be no good.

lol, could it be that maybe you're wrong?

You know I'm interested in what the critics here think of my army ... (this roughly what i take)

HQ
Maugan Ra

Elite
Scorpions x2
Harlequins

Troop
Wraith Guard
Jetbikes x2
Pathfinders

Fast
Hawks (5 man no upgrades)

Heavy
FirePrismx2
SWB Shadow Weaver (3+warlock)

... I tweak here and there (for points, transports and fire dragons) but that what I'm using ...

How many points, Tri?

Looks like 1750? Possibly more...

Elessar wrote:How many points, Tri?

Looks like 1750? Possibly more...

Well i normally add up grades and WS comes so it comes to about 1850pts ... on the other hand drop the warlock (from SWB not WG) and the swooping hawks and i can fit that lot under 1500.

In 5th edition the eldar are all about firepower and mobility.

I used to enjoy playing on-foot eldar but you are hard pressed to do anything.

With T3 and only troops controlling objectives I have reduced the core choices to:

1. Jetbike farseer & council.
2. Eldrad and warlocks in wave serpent.

There is no resiliency to any of the eldar CC elites so they will at best get one shot and with a wave serpent run you somewhere between 300 and 400 points.

3. Dire Avengers in Wave Serpent. (either minimum squads to cower inside all game or get bladestorm & defend on the exarch. Between a bladestorm, defend and farseer powers, you can clean the clock of any target you need to.
4. Guardian jetbikes. 6 bikes with 2 cannons is great firepower and hard for your opponent to survive.
5. Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent.
6. 3 vypers with scatterlaser & cannon.
21 mobile S6 shots. Again with a guide from a farseer very deadly.
7. 3 warwalkers with 2 scatterlasers. 24 S6 shots. Less mobility but cheaper for more firepower.

Everything beyond these 7 is fluffy but hard for me to justify playing. If aspect warriors had 1 more base attack, maybe but scorpions and banshees are very situational and very one shot IMO.

@Elessar The point was (as you mentioned again) a GOOD way to use Yriel. Having him around to throw his spear at a rhino so that the dragons can shhot at the passnegers? You would rather spend 155 points for that rather than just put a bright lance on the serpent that they are riding in? And suggesting that he can leave the fire dragon unit ... he is going to move away so that he is sitting there alone, a 155 freebie target that hasnt done anything as of yet?

Putting him into a position where he will be charged and so can pop his eye would be great, if there was any reason at all for the opponent to charge a deadly cc unit that is rather easy to kill with fire. What unit would you place Yriel in so that he would get charged rather than shot? The reason that Yriel works moderately well in a council is that the council provides a lot of protection for him, and the council IS going to be charging into cc.

Yriel is simply a marginal unit, not enough better than an autarch to really warrant his point cost unless you know for certain that you can get him to the right kind of target. Against many armies he simply isnt going to see a useful target to use his eye.


IG got a lot of great toys, and Im personally hoping that the vendetta will provide a good counterpoint to the serpent. The arguement previously has always been that the serpent is the best transport in the game, its fast and has a good wepon so its not over costed. Im thinking that we can finally bury this arguement since the vendetta is faster and has better weapons...and its cheaper. So that should at the very least lead to a lowering of the points cost on the serpent.

Talking about IG tho ... if they do rise to take over the metagame then actually the eldar are in good shape. The IG has some nasty psykers that can devastate many armies; the eldar have runes of warding (15 points!) that make using those powers difficult and risky. The IG has loads of heavy armor (causing much gnashing or orkish teeth); the eldar have lances, fire dragons, haywire grenades (yes they can occasionally be useful) and prisms to handle this. Yes the IG has a lot of firepower, some of which is cheaper than comparable eldar weaponry (las cannon vs lances). Go head to head with any armor and try to beat them at their strong suit and the eldar are not going to win. Dont try and out assault orks, dont try and out mass shoot IG.


Eldar are not a one trick pony, dont get stuck on one idea. Sooner or later that one army will no longer win as well, as the metagame changes and as the armies change.



Sliggoth