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If you have first turn, go all out fire.
If your second, have the guys with the highest toughness, if not the ones with the best armor save.
Use the guys with best armor save or toughness as shields
as well as heavy.

I can agree with a lot of points here like high points cost especially for transports and with a limited amount of points having all bases covered with AT fire to take out armour it can be tough.

The morale rules support larger units able to weather casualties over smaller units which need protected somehow to get to the objectives so a lot of points being sunk there. With the lower costs for units in other armies it looks like the eldar codex is soon to be abandoned by many.

But isn't that good business sense? Why have a player of the hobby sit there the past 3 years with just their eldar, if a newer codex looks more competitive more sales. Small aside there.

Some units I see people saying are must haves I dont entirely agree with. Banshees I see as too weak with their str 3, the prisms shots scatter with the new rules which imo were just plain uncalled for, they going to bring back weapons that use blast marker exploding like in 2nd ed?

Units I see as useful are guardians for lowest points cost, massed shuriken fire with fore and move heavy weapons, holding objectives.

DA's with bladestorm which is a serious threat to almost any unit.

Warwalkers, back in fashion

Wraithlords for what you pay you get a nice solid unit.

Falcon depending on weapon options and whats inside, preferably....

Fire dragons sick since RT days and we'll still reduce your terminators and land raiders to molten piles

Farseers with guide and doom, you can't go wrong.

Scorpions good save for durability in combat and high number of attacks. Worst case they tie themselves and an enemy unit in CC in my 5th ed experience. Pity they dont have haywore grenades anymore.

Warp spiders, lot of str 6 shots there, lot of saves for the opponent to make.

Vypers - sheer threat value and fire magnets with high mobility.

Jetbike squads - 6 with a lock and 2 cannons have proven effective for the points cost for me over and over.

Avatar - abilities and its threat makes it worth the cost imo.

Shining spears - high in cost yes but the laser lances + hit and run win it over for me.

It used to be 3+ save armies everywhere and the starcannon and reapers weapons of choice now we're forced to make the tournament lists to cover everything and still have the durabilty in our troops choices to take and hold objectives, just needs more thinking.
Anti tank arguments seem to revolve around the dreaded monolith I'm sad to hear, yes it's a tough one and in all honesty if i knew in advance there'd be one on the table there'd be 2 prisms sitting there waiting, but is it worth building an army around that one thing might be there? What about the t5 3+ save armies of plague marines that were so common?

The synergy argument, eldar have always been about it, not just "this squad can mow down troops and has melta bombs to blow away tanks with a save better than most cover so I dont need to worry whats going to be near it".

But I'm interested in the fire prism a bit more now, even with this stupid scatter thing, curious as to peoples experiences with it with shots probably more often than not going elsewhere.

Sure we have a long wait for a new codex and with the core rules changing SM players will always have a codexdue to them being the sort of flagship army for GW while others have to wait their turn. The changes in def weapon strength has hit eldar hard, the loss of skimmers moving fast anopther blow but I think theres more to eldar then loaded into serpents the entire game.

Overall the biggest disadvantage I think is the basic weapon only having a 12" range, so in order to shoot your shooting units, you are opened up to assaults which they are more often than not crumpled in. If that changes for the better I think we'll see a shift back to RT and 2nd ed orientated armies of guardian cores with massed shuriken fire and will I'm sure make the guardian cost for people happy compared to an IG or SM troop.

Prisms are good because of their flexibility. They are indeed the best monolith killers for the eldar, but with a str9 ap2 blast they also work quite well against meq. They are also perfect for killing hordes with their str5 ap4 large blast version.

As far as scatter goes..... 33% they hit, 45% that they hit or else roll small enough on the scatter that they dont really scatter (BS4).
If used in small blast as an AT shot, then its about 60% that it will hit or scatter 2" or less, which should still stay on the hull.

The scatter isnt really a problem, since even if it does scatter widely it may well scatter onto some other juicy target (at least in the first couple turns)


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Prisms are good because of their flexibility. They are indeed the best monolith killers for the eldar, but with a str9 ap2 blast they also work quite well against meq. They are also perfect for killing hordes with their str5 ap4 large blast version.

I'd disagree with this as to me the best monolith killer is a 5 man wraithgaurd unit in a waveserpent.

Pricey but better.

Brother Bartius wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:Prisms are good because of their flexibility. They are indeed the best monolith killers for the eldar, but with a str9 ap2 blast they also work quite well against meq. They are also perfect for killing hordes with their str5 ap4 large blast version.

I'd disagree with this as to me the best monolith killer is a 5 man wraithgaurd unit in a waveserpent.

Pricey but better.

10 man fire dragons have better odds against a monolith then a single shot from 2 Prisms
Guided Dragons = 22.3%
Prism = 9.9% (edit oops) 17.9%

Monolith killers?

Using 5 Wraithguard is a gamble, they need to be guided.

Another option is a ramming Serpent.
In the GT final last year, my ramming Serpent was 24'' away and gained strength 10, popping that d**** thing.

Moreover, an option is a Seer Council.
If transported in a Serpent they can come pretty close.

@ Tri Hmm, how are you arriving at 9.9% for the TL prisms? They are Str10 and AP1, plus with the TL you can reroll the scatter dice so on a monolith the odds of staying on the body of the vehicle are very high. I havent measured a monolith exactly, but people call it a 6" block, which would mean that a scatter of up to 7 on the dice should still hit.



Also:
Part of the reason that two prisms are the best at cracking monoliths is that they can get two or more tries. Something that a squad of fire dragons or wraithguard are VERY unlikely to see



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:@ Tri Hmm, how are you arriving at 9.9% for the TL prisms? They are Str10 and AP1, plus with the TL you can reroll the scatter dice so on a monolith the odds of staying on the body of the vehicle are very high. I havent measured a monolith exactly, but people call it a 6" block, which would mean that a scatter of up to 7 on the dice should still hit.



Also:
Part of the reason that two prisms are the best at cracking monoliths is that they can get two or more tries. Something that a squad of fire dragons or wraithguard are VERY unlikely to see



Sliggoth

ok checking my sums its better then i said (last time i overly simplified when working it out)...
(1/3 + 2/3 *(21/36 +15/36 *(1/3 + 2/3 * 21/36))) = Hit chance = 10764/11664
(2/6 3/6 +1/6 1/6) = chance to pen and destroy = 7/36
total chance of 2 fire-prisms TL to kill a monolith = 75348/419904 = 17.9%
so my apologies they've slightly better odd then unguided fire dragons but both units would be better used to evaporate the necrons and force phase out. chance of killing with one turns shooting 17.9% Two 32.7% Three 44.8% Four 54.7% Five 62.7% ...

Something I have came to love since 2nd ed when the falcon was released was 6 dragons in it. These days they still get carted around in one equipped with a scatter laser and shuriken cannon upgrade, moving 6" tops on the disembark move to hunt heavy infantry (terminators/chaos possessed etc) that are high priority targets and allows the dragons shots at either a tank or same/different unit.

Which actually gives me another gripe at points cost for eldar transports, they dont become mobile cover for the troops like those 35 points rhinos :(

Brother Bartius wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:Prisms are good because of their flexibility. They are indeed the best monolith killers for the eldar, but with a str9 ap2 blast they also work quite well against meq. They are also perfect for killing hordes with their str5 ap4 large blast version.

I'd disagree with this as to me the best monolith killer is a 5 man wraithgaurd unit in a waveserpent.

Pricey but better.

Not according to Mathematical Anti Telharsic Harfatum Septomin, or MATHS for short.

A LINKED prism is good for the str 10 and AP1.
Generally that's the only time a focused linked shot is ever worth it, against AV14.

Generally, if you want Anti-tank, you will want AP1.

Even vs. Monolith, it can't do anything agaisnt the AP1. Now melta gun equivalent weapons will have a rough time getting that glance, but few weapons will get to kill on a single glance against the AV14 variety.

My 7 Cents.

Tri wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:@ Tri Hmm, how are you arriving at 9.9% for the TL prisms? They are Str10 and AP1, plus with the TL you can reroll the scatter dice so on a monolith the odds of staying on the body of the vehicle are very high. I havent measured a monolith exactly, but people call it a 6" block, which would mean that a scatter of up to 7 on the dice should still hit.



Also:
Part of the reason that two prisms are the best at cracking monoliths is that they can get two or more tries. Something that a squad of fire dragons or wraithguard are VERY unlikely to see



Sliggoth

ok checking my sums its better then i said (last time i overly simplified when working it out)...
(1/3 + 2/3 *(21/36 +15/36 *(1/3 + 2/3 * 21/36))) = Hit chance = 10764/11664
(2/6 3/6 +1/6 1/6) = chance to pen and destroy = 7/36
total chance of 2 fire-prisms TL to kill a monolith = 75348/419904 = 17.9%
so my apologies they've slightly better odd then unguided fire dragons but both units would be better used to evaporate the necrons and force phase out. chance of killing with one turns shooting 17.9% Two 32.7% Three 44.8% Four 54.7% Five 62.7% ...

I think you also failed to take into account the chance of a glancing 6 destroying the monolith.

willydstyle wrote:

My dam workings wrote:
(2/6 3/6 +1/6 1/6) = chance to pen and destroy = 7/36

I think you also failed to take into account the chance of a glancing 6 destroying the monolith.

I have highlighted the chance to glance it to death

I suppose if we want to go for the best best best unit odds of destroying a monlith we should go with a 10 man wraithguard unit with a spiritseer/ spear, being guided. But how do we get the necron player to doze off for those turns needed to get things close enough, hehe.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:I suppose if we want to go for the best best best unit odds of destroying a monlith we should go with a 10 man wraithguard unit with a spiritseer/ spear, being guided. But how do we get the necron player to doze off for those turns needed to get things close enough, hehe.


Sliggoth

Put em in two wave serpents. 700 points later, no monolith can escape.

Sliggoth wrote:I suppose if we want to go for the best best best unit odds of destroying a monlith we should go with a 10 man wraithguard unit with a spiritseer/ spear, being guided. But how do we get the necron player to doze off for those turns needed to get things close enough, hehe.


Sliggoth

Again, not really. 10 Fire Dragons with Tank Hunters is FAR more effective. Even without Guide.

Well, theory says to ignore the d*** Monolith.
This works with MEQ armies but can go wrong with Eldar and definitely goes wrong with DE.

My favorite Monolith killers are ramming Serpents and Seer Councils.

Hmm, the wraithguard pen on one third of their hits.

The fire dragons only pen if they roll a 6, even with tank hunter. With the living metal rules, its only tank hunter that lets the dragons pen at all.

So each wraithguard will pen twice as often as each dragon, each wraithguard will glance twice as often, and they are all BS4 except for the dragon autarch. Granted the dragons are AP1 but thats not going to counter twice as many rolls on the table.

So the wraithguard are more effective than the dragons. If anyone ran full squads of either of course


But yes, its usually going to be a better idea to kill regular necrons to make his army phase out. If the necron player has too many warriors in reserve tho we dont always have that option and then we may find that a monolith needs to die.

In practical terms that usually means either a TL prism set, or else a smaller unit of fire dragons since few eldar lists run full squads of dragons or wraithguard.


Sliggoth

I was pretty sure that living metal negated tank hunter. Could someone check that?

willydstyle wrote:I was pretty sure that living metal negated tank hunter. Could someone check that?

It is not listed as being blocked but is implied. in practice you will only ever roll strength plus a D6 against AV14. Now the actual rules say you never get to roll more then 1D6 and you don't get lancing .... which doesn't include tank hunter .... Now we could say it doesn't say that tank hunter would work as it is not mention as working but nether is it mentioned as working for any other vehicles. In this case i would say living metal would have to say that tank hunter doesn't work.

I think it may have been in an FAQ, not 100% sure about that though

well this topics certainly giving me some ideas for soon to be eldar army! ^^ damn shouldnt have said that...the inquisitors will be after meh D:

Minaith1989 wrote:well this topics certainly giving me some ideas for soon to be eldar army! ^^ damn shouldnt have said that...the inquisitors will be after meh D:

lol, what's your theme?

Actually, Tank Hunters DOES work. In 4th, it did not, but the wording was changed, and it was removed from the Necron FAQ. It works just fine.

Well i think the eldar avatar is good against two armies. Salamaders led by vulcan he'stan, or orks with lots of trucks. if salamanders,they will have lots of melta and flamer weps. they cant affect the avatar because of the molten body spec rule. with orks, try to imobolise the veichles on the first turn, then blow up tanks with 5 strength 6 attacks and a wailing doom. also take fire prisms and fire dragons, to take the enemy out, and to make a greatn looking fire-based army.

Use 2 Farseer both with doom, guide and spirit stones (to make them cast 2 psychics a turn).
Also have 2 squads of dire avengers with at least 10 men and a exarch with bladestorm.
First turn both Farseers casts doom on an enemy unit and guide on a dire avenger unit.
1 dire avenger squad bladestorms and one shoots normally. This should take out at least 1 or 2 units.
Next turn the dire avengers who shot normally bladestorm and the other squad with 1 Farseer go into cover. Do the same as last turn with the other Farseer.
Continue doing the same as what you did in the second turn while alternating the unit that bladestorms.

This army probably wont even be 1000 points so you could add in a unit(s) of Howling Banshees in a wave serpent to kill enemies in close combat.
The wave serpent is highly recommended and so is putting bright lances to kill tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zamuel30 wrote:Well i think the eldar avatar is good against two armies. Salamaders led by vulcan he'stan, or orks with lots of trucks. if salamanders,they will have lots of melta and flamer weps. they cant affect the avatar because of the molten body spec rule. with orks, try to imobolise the veichles on the first turn, then blow up tanks with 5 strength 6 attacks and a wailing doom. also take fire prisms and fire dragons, to take the enemy out, and to make a greatn looking fire-based army.

yes but the the avatar is strength 6 and is a monstrous creature so he attacks tanks with 2D6+6 armour penetration.

Saltoric wrote:
Next turn the dire avengers who shot normally bladestorm and the other squad with 1 Farseer go into cover. Do the same as last turn with the other Farseer.
Continue doing the same as what you did in the second turn while alternating the unit that bladestorms.

This way you get 30 shots each turn. Shooting regularly will give you 40 shots. I realize this scenario won't last long in a true game setting but what's the point of alternating bladestorms?

Elessar wrote:If Razorbacks had FirePoints/a Capacity of ten/ Marines could take Chimeras there would be no reason to EVER play Eldar competitively.

WH/DH allies with Inquisitional Stormtroopers and then they can have Chimeras
Expensive Chimeras.

For the Dire Avengers just shoot both then when you are about to be assaulted bladestorm both and deny them the charge

migsula wrote:Nice thread guys! I was painting some more Eldar today - and finding this up has been most useful.

I was/am in the same position.
Thanks