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Gwyidion wrote:The question asks about exarch powers, the answer says "Their powers only affects [sic] units of aspect warriors". As stealth and acute senses fall under 'their powers'... they only have an effect on aspect warriors. I suppose in this document that is correcting ambiguities you could argue that they really meant their exarch powers, but the answer says powers, so i think that it means exactly what it says.

(full text)
Q
"As Phoenix Lords are not exarchs, but independant characters, do their exarch powers (Shadowstrike, skyleap, etc.) affect units other than aspect warriors?"
A
"Their powers only affects units of Aspect Warriors."

"Their" being the PLs.... Phoenix Lord powers only affect units of aspect warriors. If they wanted non-exarch powers to affect non-aspect units, they would have said "Their exarch powers only affect units of Aspect Warriors"... but they didn't say that.

Ok i can see where you coming from. So now can you explain how Stealth is a power? Its not defined as such, nor is Acute Sense. They are rules, special rules, and possibly even Universal Special Rules. You are the first person i have heard to ever call them powers. Note the question is also being very specific in asking about "Exarch Powers" which are indeed, rules defined as powers.

I LIKE the 24" denial zone...but it's vastly inferior to Prisms/Falcons/Walkers.

Is prince Yriel worth the points?

fludit wrote:Is prince Yriel worth the points?

Yes, he is.
For instance, a Seer Council is the best anvil unit in the game.
But with Yriel and Eldrad, it also becomes a hammer unit.

I used Yriel to charge a doomed unit and use the eye of wrath.
An MEQ unit dies easily.

Prince Yriel can work, but in order to use his eye he needs to leave the council. The template hits all models under the blast marker except for Yriel.... including other eldar models so unless you want to force your council to take a lot of saves Yriel has to run off on his own. This of course means that during the next turn Yriel is an IC sitting there by himself, all alone, saying shoot me shoot me.

Yriel does have the spear of twilight (wounds on 2+, ignores armor saves) so he is very good in adding killing power in cc, but using his eye is problematic.

Karandas adds tremendously to a full unit of wraithguard with a conceal warlock but the points value is so high its not worth doing outside of weird fun games or apoc.


Sliggoth

Prince Yriel can work, but in order to use his eye he needs to leave the council.

I used the eye once when Yriel was part of the Council.
Clever placement will get a minimum of Warlocks under the template, and they have a rerollable save.

Put Eldrad in an Falcon and have him guide\fortune 2x warp spiders squads or even guide the falcon. Then another Farseer with guide and doom, supporting 3 squads of Dire Advengers in Wave Serpents. With their 18" range, better BS and doom, they perform the FoF (Tau tactic MUCH better). oh and throw in 2 Wraithlords to draw some fire and take care of the heavies (AV14).

The key to this tactic is to have each group concentrate on single units

Use Eldrad to fortune the Warp Spiders, jump them to within 12" of the enemy, fire away with BS4 S6 and jump back. You can doom the unit if they are T5 or greater. And with Eldrad being in a Falcon, Spirit stones and Halo fields will give you are greater chance of keeping Eldrad alive. Even if the Falcon is stun\shaken, Eldrad can still use his physic powers.

Same for the second Farseer and Dire Advengers. Guide a squad of DA, doom the enemy, fly to within 18" of the enemy in the Wave Serpents, disembark the Dire Advengers, while leaving the Farseer in the Wave Serpent - 60x BS4 S4 shots on a doomed unit and they are most likey to go down. And with the 18" range it will help you from being assaulted or being shot at next turn.

Also remember, guide\fortune\doom can done without line of sight and be measured from the Falcon\Wave Serpent's hull.

The Wraithlord, armed with w\link flamers, a Bright Lance and a Wraithsword will help them take out heavy tanks like melted butter (yummy S10 and 2D6 Armour Penetration!!!). TL flamers to help reduce the enemy prior to assaulting them and the Wraithsword, for 10pts, will allow you to re-roll To Hits.

And arm the Wave Serpents with TL Star Cannon, TL 36" S6 AP2 will help you clean up to pesky light vehicles or remove the remaining models left behind by the Warp Spiders and Dire Advengers

Eldar is a fragile and specialized army to play. They are unforgiven is you make a mistake or get bad dice rolls, but can kick some serious booty if played right. Also because of this, I find that I have more satisfaction playing them than I do my 179 Orks or trigger happy IG armies.

Good luck and let me know what you all think

Yeah, I have used Eldrad in a falcon with DAs in conjunction with another falcon with DAs, guiding both falcons to make them effective long-range standoff gunboats, then using fortune in the endgame to move around and claim objectives.

On dakka everybody says "that's too expensive." But it's not like you're *not* going to buy Eldrad anyway, and a guided falcon with five DAs and no exarch is a reasonable value for pretty good capabilities compared with the comparably-costed wave serpent full of DAs. Especially if the WS avengers have an exarch. Eldrad has good synergy with falcons.

oh no you've got me started on the falcon ...

The falcon used to be the hands down winner. In 4th it could move 12" and fire all str6 guns and one more powerful gun. Where as now ...

look if you want a transport take a Wave serpent its cheaper, has more room and has a higher survivability as a transport ... if you want ranged fire power take a Fire Prism, its cheaper and has better range and fire power.

Tri wrote:oh no you've got me started on the falcon ...

The falcon used to be the hands down winner. In 4th it could move 12" and fire all str6 guns and one more powerful gun. Where as now ...

look if you want a transport take a Wave serpent its cheaper, has more room and has a higher survivability as a transport ... if you want ranged fire power take a Fire Prism, its cheaper and has better range and fire power.

The only redeeming value of a falcon in my eyes is the holofield....... it is very hard to kill something with a holofield. but if you move 6" with a guided Falcon you can shoot all guns with a re-roll......its almost worth putting a farseer in the falcon by himself just make it better at shooting

if they would make the Falcon a BS4 vehicle like a true specialized tank and knock the Fire Prism to BS3 I would be happy, even the Waveserpent has twinlink to counter the bad shooting.

its pretty bad when the Falcon makes a better transport than a Waveserpent, and the Waveserpent makes a better tank than the Falcon

Tri and DJ, you're missing the point.

Yes, I agree with you both about falcons in general.

But falcons + Eldrad + 60-point scoring upgrade + standoff tactics is a horse of a different color. It uses all of the remaining strengths of falcons (DJ mentions the holofield, but also they pack more firepower than serpents) and compensates for the weak BS (guide) and melta vulnerability (standoff tactics), and minimizes the buy-in for big DA point sink troop units.

Look outside the box, guys.

Sure, even given all that, the fireprism is still better:

60 inch range
Variable Strength
S10
Variable Twinlinked
Variable Blast
Cheaper

Fire prisms don't score, Augustus.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Fire prisms don't score, Augustus.

But they can still tank shock and contest.

Yeah but if you're looking again, like in the last three threads I've been in on this forum, for a way to minimize your investment in point-sink troop units in order to maximize your expenditures on firepower while still maintaining a viable scoring capability and keeping your troop units safe until the endgame when you actually need them, then the scoring capability is key.

You can buy serpents with dragons or something to tank-shock and contest.

[edit]
Let me rephrase that: The wave serpents that your fire dragons were riding in before they made their one-shot attack and were blown off the board can tank-shock and contest, and do it better and cheaper than a fire prism because it has more melta resistance and doesn't cost your army significant firepower by moving fast.

Ah, you are right about the powers thing. But I knew I was right, so I checked back, and I remembered why I was so sure I am right:

Eldar codex p56 "Karandras... Has the stealth special rule (this ability is conferred to any unit of striking scorpions Karandras joins)"

A fire prism will get to shoot alot more times than the fire dragons popping out of their Wave Serpent.

Eldrad can then fly around in a wave serpent with min size DA, and doesn't have to guide the serpent because it's already twin linked, and can use psychic powers on other stuff.

Gwyidion wrote:Ah, you are right about the powers thing. But I knew I was right, so I checked back, and I remembered why I was so sure I am right:

Eldar codex p56 "Karandras... Has the stealth special rule (this ability is conferred to any unit of striking scorpions Karandras joins)"

And RAW the bit about "this ability is conferred to any unit of striking scorpions" is redundant since stealth is conferred to any unit a character with stealth joins.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Tri and DJ, you're missing the point.

Yes, I agree with you both about falcons in general.

But falcons + Eldrad + 60-point scoring upgrade + standoff tactics is a horse of a different color. It uses all of the remaining strengths of falcons (DJ mentions the holofield, but also they pack more firepower than serpents) and compensates for the weak BS (guide) and melta vulnerability (standoff tactics), and minimizes the buy-in for big DA point sink troop units.

Look outside the box, guys.

No, I do see your point, and you are correct, but i think what we were saying is that Eldrad+falcon with holofield+DA is single target that cost 445 points and is worth 3 kill points.....

Eldar need to diversify their units as much as possible, and 445 points in a single unit that can be shut down for a turn by a single glancing hit.......that is too many eggs in one basket for me. I have always noticed that Eldar can not survive a focused amount of fire power. When 1/3 of an army (1500 points) is sitting in a single vehicle....AND is a scoring unit......expect to see every las-cannon in range try to rape that little Falcon.

Plus a single glance can shut down the Falcons shooting (which is a very common result with Holo-field) which nerfs Eldrads powers......ie Guide on the falcon has no use that turn, cant use shooting psychic powers in the Falcon, and must be 6" away from another friendly unit to give fortune/guide to someone else.........You can only use Doom so many times a turn and that puts you closer to the enemy and vulnerable to rear-armor shots from fast moving units (Speeders, Pirana, Melta Vets).

So while I do agree with you that it is a valid idea, and it is thinking outside the box........ IMHO, the inside of the box in this case, is a safer bet.

whitedragon wrote:A fire prism will get to shoot alot more times than the fire dragons popping out of their Wave Serpent.

Eldrad can then fly around in a wave serpent with min size DA, and doesn't have to guide the serpent because it's already twin linked, and can use psychic powers on other stuff.

I'm assuming that everyone is going to be taking 1-2 WS with fire dragons in every Eldar army anyway. I mean, why wouldn't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DJ Illuminati wrote:

No, I do see your point, and you are correct, but i think what we were saying is that Eldrad+falcon with holofield+DA is single target that cost 445 points and is worth 3 kill points.....

...and to reiterate:

"On dakka everybody says "that's too expensive." But it's not like you're *not* going to buy Eldrad anyway, and a guided falcon with five DAs and no exarch is a reasonable value for pretty good capabilities compared with the comparably-costed wave serpent full of DAs. Especially if the WS avengers have an exarch. Eldrad has good synergy with falcons. "

I would be pretty happy if every long-range AT weapon on the table shot at a falcon--that means more survivability for the killy parts of my mech Eldar force. The risk of losing a single round of fire from a falcon to a shaken result is no big deal--Eldrad can use a different power for something else for a turn.

I think that the whole "killing your points worth" view that focuses on the cost of single units misses something important about the total value of an army. All other things being equal, it seems to me that an army that spent 120 points on troops and the rest of its points on dangerous firepower units--assuming that the troops are at least as survivable as if you spent 500 points on them--will be able to outgun an army that spent 500+ points on troops. Particularly in armies like Eldar that don't have troop choices that are inherently durable, mobile and dangerous.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

whitedragon wrote:A fire prism will get to shoot alot more times than the fire dragons popping out of their Wave Serpent.

Eldrad can then fly around in a wave serpent with min size DA, and doesn't have to guide the serpent because it's already twin linked, and can use psychic powers on other stuff.

I'm assuming that everyone is going to be taking 1-2 WS with fire dragons in every Eldar army anyway. I mean, why wouldn't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DJ Illuminati wrote:

No, I do see your point, and you are correct, but i think what we were saying is that Eldrad+falcon with holofield+DA is single target that cost 445 points and is worth 3 kill points.....

...and to reiterate:

"On dakka everybody says "that's too expensive." But it's not like you're *not* going to buy Eldrad anyway, and a guided falcon with five DAs and no exarch is a reasonable value for pretty good capabilities compared with the comparably-costed wave serpent full of DAs. Especially if the WS avengers have an exarch. Eldrad has good synergy with falcons. "

but a 10 DA squad with all the trimmings in a WS is still 1/2 the cost and only 2 kill points and harder to kill (5 DAs is a simple kill, 10 is harder)......and with twin link it doesnt need a farseer.........

do you have anything to counter the fact that your falcon will be shaken 80% of the game and not helping until the last turn......if it survives.

DJ Illuminati wrote:[

do you have anything to counter the fact that your falcon will be shaken 80% of the game and not helping until the last turn......if it survives.

Only my gameplay experience that suggests people would rather shoot at the wave serpents full of dragons and other dangerous units that are in their faces presenting immediate threats than a falcon sitting at the other side of the board.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:[

do you have anything to counter the fact that your falcon will be shaken 80% of the game and not helping until the last turn......if it survives.

Only my gameplay experience that suggests people would rather shoot at the wave serpents full of dragons and other dangerous units that are in their faces presenting immediate threats than a falcon sitting at the other side of the board.

Granted....

but it sounds like your opponits are either unaware of your list, or are inexperianced against Eldar........ Maby I am looking at it from the POV of an Eldar player and thus I see the threat it would pose. But as an experianced player I would see 3 kill points in a scoring unit being worth the effort to shoot down as I know the Dragons will undoubtedly kill one vehicle, and then die in a torrent of las-gun/shoota/close combat........

My friends I play against have learned to focus on my Fire prism above all my other units, as it takes so little to shake it for a turn or two

Flavius Infernus wrote:

whitedragon wrote:A fire prism will get to shoot alot more times than the fire dragons popping out of their Wave Serpent.

Eldrad can then fly around in a wave serpent with min size DA, and doesn't have to guide the serpent because it's already twin linked, and can use psychic powers on other stuff.

I'm assuming that everyone is going to be taking 1-2 WS with fire dragons in every Eldar army anyway. I mean, why wouldn't you?

Guilty as charged.

But I guess, you could put eldrad in with a wave serpent with DA, and get the same thing as the falcon for 60+ points less, and Eldrad doesn't have to use guide on the wave serpent, so he can cast other nastiness. And, it leaves your heavy slots open for more fire prisms.

There are many ways to win with Eldar.

Those who say that there are only a couple of ways to win are either not very good players, or lack imagination.

I have a very good record with Eldar and I have never used a Seer Council, Fire Dragons or Wave Serpents and for the most part use a guardian horde. .

willydstyle wrote:

Gwyidion wrote:Ah, you are right about the powers thing. But I knew I was right, so I checked back, and I remembered why I was so sure I am right:

Eldar codex p56 "Karandras... Has the stealth special rule (this ability is conferred to any unit of striking scorpions Karandras joins)"

And RAW the bit about "this ability is conferred to any unit of striking scorpions" is redundant since stealth is conferred to any unit a character with stealth joins.

whoa it isn't conferred to unit that he joins. However the rules for stealth is it adds +1 to a units cover save. So, so long as just one person has the Stealth USR, every one in that unit gets +1 to their cover save.


=====
Flavius Infernus, if you stuff Eldrad in a falcon with 5 DA that's a lot of points. That's around third of 1500pts game and quarter of a 1850pts game. End of the day what can it do? Force the enemy to stun it each turn, taxi round Eldrad and score.
Hell I'd much rather stuff Eldrad in the WS with the FireDragons he can guide them and doom before they jump out (he then runs back to your lines to get another squad ... why not a 10man squad of Dire Avengers they might actually be able to clear the objective)

What's the most effective use of pathfinders? I absolutely love them in every way possible(except that way), and am wondering what the best use for them would be.

Fafnir wrote:What's the most effective use of pathfinders? I absolutely love them in every way possible(except that way), and am wondering what the best use for them would be.

killing small units of +2 saves and MC

They like to kill Terminators, C'tan, WraithLords, Hive Tyrants, Carnifexs, Wraithguard, AV10-11, ect...

At most you'll only ever want 10, ether 2 5man units or one 10man

Fafnir wrote:What's the most effective use of pathfinders? I absolutely love them in every way possible(except that way), and am wondering what the best use for them would be.

Put them in cover and shoot the bad guys. They're horribly too expensive for their offensive capabilities. If the bad guys get close, don't forget to use their ability to ignore cover to run the hell away.

Tri wrote:

Fafnir wrote:What's the most effective use of pathfinders? I absolutely love them in every way possible(except that way), and am wondering what the best use for them would be.

killing small units of +2 saves and MC

They like to kill Terminators, C'tan, WraithLords, Hive Tyrants, Carnifexs, Wraithguard, AV10-11, ect...

At most you'll only ever want 10, ether 2 5man units or one 10man

I plan on taking 2 units of 5. And the whole Termis/C'tan/blahblah looks like exactly what I planned for.