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Mahu wrote:

As one who was always more interested Warriors then was healthy with the last codex, how do they fair in the new codex?

I love them, they are a stand out unit, at least to my playstyle.

Warriors are a reliable troop unit and IMHO the best objective holder we get outside of the Tervigon. You just have to be careful with them because they are a little fragile to heavy fire.

I like the combination of Alpha Warrior w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter and a unit of at least 4 with Deathspitters in a Pod. You drop that thing into decent cover near an objective and sit there and fire all day long. Combine that with the Death Leaper showing up in that same cover and you almost guarantee that they will not be assaulted out of cover.

Wait what? Warriors = troops?!
Ohh it is a happy day

Regarding OP CC units, Tyranids could field a reasonably nasty one. It'd just be *a lot* more "glass" than most of the uberunits. Tyranids could field a biggish unit of winged Warriors with boneswords, scything talons, adrenal glands and toxin sacs. So if hitting say, Nob bikers, that's jump infantry with 4 attacks each on the charge at I5, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, rerolling failed wounds, ignoring armor saves and causing ID on failed Ld checks. It's too late in the day for me to mathhammer all that, but it'd have to mess up a bunch of Nobz. Or hurt almost anything else, really.

Powerfists aren't quite the threat they could be just because the Warriors will tend to destroy what they hit at I5. But very obviously, the issue is that said unit will cost a boatload of points and even bolters will take their toll on them. A little bit of mobile firepower and that unit will be carved up quick. The hittiness is there but they look to be a terrible return in terms of durability for the points.

It's kind of a funny codex. As wyomingfox said, there's a lot of redundancy with CC ability and medium S shooting. Then there are a lot of units that are highly specialized to the point of being almost situational, really. Then there are "buff" units like Tyrants and Tervigons.

What I'm still wondering is that if Hive Guard really cost only 50 points for a T6 W2 heavy guy with an incredible weapon, what are 1750p Nid armies really losing by spending 450 points into the maximum 9 of them? They get pretty much all the anti AV10-13 they need in a pretty wonderful package. They still have plenty of points to invest in whatever they need be it more guns or assault troops. Zoanthropes? Maybe, but then we're talking about 6 Guard and 3 Zoans. Lictors? The Ymgarl Stealers? In my opinion before someone finds an absolutely necessary unit in the elites slot, people will just go with a ton of Hive Guard and whatever else. It's pretty standard 40K list building really. You identify all the best units for different tasks and max out on them.

What's the save on the hive guard?

Regarding OP CC units, Tyranids could field a reasonably nasty one. It'd just be *a lot* more "glass" than most of the uberunits. Tyranids could field a biggish unit of winged Warriors with boneswords, scything talons, adrenal glands and toxin sacs. So if hitting say, Nob bikers, that's jump infantry with 4 attacks each on the charge at I5, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, rerolling failed wounds, ignoring armor saves and causing ID on failed Ld checks. It's too late in the day for me to mathhammer all that, but it'd have to mess up a bunch of Nobz. Or hurt almost anything else, really.

I was thinking something similar, only a foot unit with alpha warrior in pod or fronted by some hormagaunts or termagants. In a pod I think they'd just get smoked but part of a wave with enough other threats they could make a nice bit of counter charge.

Winged warriors 5+ save just doesn't cut it for me. Plus I have no desire to convert or pay out the nose for winged ones.

What I'm still wondering is that if Hive Guard really cost only 50 points for a T6 W2 heavy guy with an incredible weapon, what are 1750p Nid armies really losing by spending 450 points into the maximum 9 of them?

I think you pretty much nailed it. Much like 2-3 gunfexes were mandatory for competive nids in 4ed dex, 6-9 hive guard are auto add. And if you are taking 6 of em instead of 9 it had better be a pretty good reason. Tyranids strength might be in assualt but it needs turn1 transport popping ability or that ability is moot.

Zoanthropes just need waay more extra crap to be viable in my opinion. Gotta have death leaper or a good chunk of armies nullfiy them. Really need a pod or they are asking to get instagibbed before doing anything significant. Should have a reserve bonus or they'll show to the party to late.

And honestlty, will zoathropes really fully counter the 1-3 landraider + termie armies? That crap is gonna hit and hit hard against a tyranid army regardless, as far as I am concerned. Better to try and mitigate via non wrecking suppression of the raider, bubblewrapping/ pitting the hammer unit(s) and counter charging rather then sinking 580 points and all 3 elite slots. That way you have the tools to shut down or even wipe the other parts of the army.

That is my early, biased thoughts on the matter. I am sure after several games in a row against such armies I'll have to eat some crow

What's the save on the hive guard?

Hive Guard have a 4+.

winterman wrote:

Regarding OP CC units, Tyranids could field a reasonably nasty one. It'd just be *a lot* more "glass" than most of the uberunits. Tyranids could field a biggish unit of winged Warriors with boneswords, scything talons, adrenal glands and toxin sacs. So if hitting say, Nob bikers, that's jump infantry with 4 attacks each on the charge at I5, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, rerolling failed wounds, ignoring armor saves and causing ID on failed Ld checks. It's too late in the day for me to mathhammer all that, but it'd have to mess up a bunch of Nobz. Or hurt almost anything else, really.

I was thinking something similar, only a foot unit with alpha warrior in pod or fronted by some hormagaunts or termagants. In a pod I think they'd just get smoked but part of a wave with enough other threats they could make a nice bit of counter charge.

Winged warriors 5+ save just doesn't cut it for me. Plus I have no desire to convert or pay out the nose for winged ones.

What I'm still wondering is that if Hive Guard really cost only 50 points for a T6 W2 heavy guy with an incredible weapon, what are 1750p Nid armies really losing by spending 450 points into the maximum 9 of them?

I think you pretty much nailed it. Much like 2-3 gunfexes were mandatory for competive nids in 4ed dex, 6-9 hive guard are auto add. And if you are taking 6 of em instead of 9 it had better be a pretty good reason. Tyranids strength might be in assualt but it needs turn1 transport popping ability or that ability is moot.

Zoanthropes just need waay more extra crap to be viable in my opinion. Gotta have death leaper or a good chunk of armies nullfiy them. Really need a pod or they are asking to get instagibbed before doing anything significant. Should have a reserve bonus or they'll show to the party to late.

And honestlty, will zoathropes really fully counter the 1-3 landraider + termie armies? That crap is gonna hit and hit hard against a tyranid army regardless, as far as I am concerned. Better to try and mitigate via non wrecking suppression of the raider, bubblewrapping/ pitting the hammer unit(s) and counter charging rather then sinking 580 points and all 3 elite slots. That way you have the tools to shut down or even wipe the other parts of the army.

That is my early, biased thoughts on the matter. I am sure after several games in a row against such armies I'll have to eat some crow

What's the save on the hive guard?

Hive Guard have a 4+.

zoans are nids best anti tank with bright railgun lances and a 3+ inv save for low point cost plus their pods are nice with 6 str6 hits.......

deathleaper and lictors are still gak

hive guard arn't worth it

Therion wrote:What I'm still wondering is that if Hive Guard really cost only 50 points for a T6 W2 heavy guy with an incredible weapon, what are 1750p Nid armies really losing by spending 450 points into the maximum 9 of them?

Zoanthropes. What's your other plan for Land Raiders? Also, Hive Guard apparently only have 4+ armor, which makes them a lot worse than I'd anticipated.

Fetterkey wrote:

Therion wrote:What I'm still wondering is that if Hive Guard really cost only 50 points for a T6 W2 heavy guy with an incredible weapon, what are 1750p Nid armies really losing by spending 450 points into the maximum 9 of them?

Zoanthropes. What's your other plan for Land Raiders? Also, Hive Guard apparently only have 4+ armor, which makes them a lot worse than I'd anticipated.

I love how zoans make raiders their bitch.... str10 vs armor 12 on a raider =D

The list really seems to promote Get in your face on turn two alot. There are multiple units capable of 2nd turn charges along with the ability for deepstrike.

I really see those armies doing the best. The problem I have is the - that a lot of the tyranid armies shooting has. Not to much of a problem but still kind of annoying.

4 or more drop pods gives you I think 24 shots at ST6 bs 2 thats pretty good. Throw in Podding warriors with a venom cannon. Hurray

winterman wrote:6-9 hive guard are auto add. And if you are taking 6 of em instead of 9 it had better be a pretty good reason.

Zoanthropes just need waay more extra crap to be viable in my opinion. Gotta have death leaper or a good chunk of armies nullfiy them. Really need a pod or they are asking to get instagibbed before doing anything significant. Should have a reserve bonus or they'll show to the party to late.

Or don't waste all those points and critical slots and let them work like normal. After eating a little crow myself in another thread (well, I was a bit misinformed of thier new stats ), I am willing to give a unit a chance. Personally, I can see fielding 6 Hive guard and 2-3 Zoes myself. Zoes have a 24" threat range and in 2 of three of the deployment situations, you will likely be able to put them far enough up field that they will be able to cover a good portion of the board in the second turn if not the first (and thanks to lance, side shots are less critical). Psychic Hoods born by Ld 10 models are a pain, but luckily Orcs, Guard, Tau, Necrons, Nids, Eldar, and Dark Eldar don't have them. As for ID, a unit of 3 can be insta-killed by 15 missle launcher shots (statistically needed for a 100% chance)...but if they are directing fire at them, then they are sparing your tervigons, tyrants, warriors, hive guard, hormies, stealers, gargoyles, ect. And if you lose them, you lose a meager 180 points...vs if they get a shot on a LR, he loses 250 points and potentially another 240+ points in terminators.

And honestlty, will zoathropes really fully counter the 1-3 landraider + termie armies?

Gosh, I feel that the answer should be no, but I am going to have to go with Jesus... . But to be faire, I don't see alot of 3 LR + 3 TH/SS termies (thank heavens) armies in most tournement games of 1750-1850. Maybe in Apocolypse...but in that case, I am bringing my Bio-Titan with a 3++...which is just fine since Warhounds and Reavers are unbelievably undercosted...well just about every stupid vehicle in 5th (thanks to 5th) is undercosted. Nice to see the shoe on the other foot for a change .

Do Hive Guards count as MCs or are they like Warriors?

Without turning this into "can I make XYZ tyranid army", is it possible to make a viable army with Warriors and MCs and not using any of the swarmers?

Fetterkey wrote:Hive Guard apparently only have 4+ armor, which makes them a lot worse than I'd anticipated.

Well, Hive Guard are not MC (thankfully), don't need LOS, and ignore interviening cover (from current rumors). So, I really don't plan on relying on a 4+ armor save as much as a 4+ cover save, that should be readily available.

New units? Great.

What about the exsisting units? Are they any different? (Do you know that they are any different?)

Yeah, alot has changed. If you can stand to sift through this thread, you will learn alot.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271108.page

Does anyone know if a group of 3 Hive Guard or 3 Zoeys all have to target the same unit?

I've heard nothing that says they can split fire.

Ventus wrote:Does anyone know if a group of 3 Hive Guard or 3 Zoeys all have to target the same unit?

I would assume that they'd have to, Long Fangs/new Land Raiders are the only unit I know of that can split fire.

I wonder if these units will go the way of Obliterators.

1 = too few
2 = just right
3 = point sink/juicy target

I don't know, 3 has been the only squad size that has worked for my oblits and I.
I would say 3's for all of them as they aren't that expensive...

So I was doing some reading and pondering last night about units and options no one (including me) is talking about.

I wonder if we're overlooking Venomthropes a little. In a slogging list, sure, it looks like an invitation to be shot. But what about in a pod list, especially a more conservative drop list podding in shooters and not right on top of your opponent? Hiding one behind a pod wall should keep it out of LOS and give the pods and nearby units (Dakkafexes?) 5+ cover saves and defensive grenades. Barbed stranglers on the pods might also be a decent option here. Can't get around the fact that HG and Zoeys still easily look to be the most valuable Elites choices, but hey, I'm just trying here.

There seems to be a lot of internet chatter about Tyrants dying quickly. So I also wonder if we're overlooking the Unspeakable Horror ability on Tyrants a little. Assuming it's a Ld check and not a Morale check, and that units can't then redirect their fire elsewhere, it seems like something that can cause a couple of shooting failures, which might be all the Tyrant needs to survive. Life Leech looks underwhelming to me like everyone else, but maybe you take that too as an additional hedge. Of course, I think all of this would also rely on your popping enemy gun tanks pretty quickly, since UH wouldn't faze them. Again, just trying to think out of the box here.

I plan on taking two Venomthropes for my foot slogging list. They're going to give saves to my Gaunts and Big Guys. The mid size creatures shouldn't need their help as they'll be getting cover from the Gaunts. If people shoot the Venomthropes, they should be getting a 4+ save from the Gaunts, and it's that many less shots at the Big Guys either way.

My biggest fear is going to be Blast weapons. With so many bonuses for keeping your guys near each other, it's just going to be one big cluster frak, begging your opponent to toss pie plates at you.

Blast weapons won't be that bad. You only have to have 1 model from a unit within the 6" for venomthropes and tervigons special abilities to get the bonuses. so you can still string your squads out quite a bit.

wyomingfox wrote:Personally, I can see fielding 6 Hive guard and 2-3 Zoes myself.

I see that as a good mix actually and probably the baseline I will start at for my own playtesting (if only cause I already have 3 zonathropes and don't want to buy more hive guard then neccesary). I'm not against taking zoanthropes, just not seeing the need to load up on them exclusively.

I wonder if we're overlooking Venomthropes a little. In a slogging list, sure, it looks like an invitation to be shot. But what about in a pod list, especially a more conservative drop list podding in shooters and not right on top of your opponent? Hiding one behind a pod wall should keep it out of LOS and give the pods and nearby units (Dakkafexes?) 5+ cover saves and defensive grenades. Barbed stranglers on the pods might also be a decent option here. Can't get around the fact that HG and Zoeys still easily look to be the most valuable Elites choices, but hey, I'm just trying here.

It is an interesting idea, but between scatter and the rather smallish zone of influence I am not sure how much value they would add -- or the type of army that would really benefit.

I'm still interested in trying them in a slogging shooty build though. It is going to take quite a bit of shooting to take down a unit of venomthrope with 4+ cover at 36"+ range. Also since venomthropes abilities appear to be passive and the army in question isn't rushing forward -- going to ground seems like a fine option for the 3+ cover save. I am not entirely sold, but it sure seems worth looking into.

I thought for certain that IG would be my non-PA army of choice but Tyranids are really sounding like a fun little army.

I like the idea that there isn't a particularly uber sounding squad, instead you have alot of solid performers on the table.

You could be like me, and try to split resources between all three! I have SM, IG, and Nids (and never enough of any of them!)

minigun762 wrote:

Ventus wrote:Does anyone know if a group of 3 Hive Guard or 3 Zoeys all have to target the same unit?

I would assume that they'd have to, Long Fangs/new Land Raiders are the only unit I know of that can split fire.

I wonder if these units will go the way of Obliterators.

1 = too few
2 = just right
3 = point sink/juicy target

Doing the math, I would say that 3 is the ideal unit size. Enough to beat up AV11>, and most Open topped vehicles, easily, or two can combine fire to trash AV12 or 13 closed-Tops.

Seems to me that Nids will be best with combined arms and target saturation.

The best thing about hive guard is there t 6 and 2 wounds, they can put out a good amount of anti-tank but they want be as effective because they can only target 3 units if you max out on them. Combined with their short range I doubt you will be able to target the unit you want without them recieving a cover save.

Therion wrote:I'm not sure Razorbacks are as doomed against the Hive Guard as it might seem. The lascannon still packs 48" in range against the impaler cannon's 24" and it's a huge difference. The Hive Guard sure are nice but I don't think they completely counter Chimeras and Razorbacks despite being superior to them point by point. They have to move a lot from their deployment zone to be able to shoot anything and that means they can't utilise shooting through los blocking terrain as well as they'd like.

But could someone explain to me what a Tyranid army with a four Tervigons and about six Hive Guard and three Zoanthropes is going to do with Thunderwolf Cavalry or Nob Bikers or Seers on Bikes? All I'm currently seeing is some anti-transport/tank gun platforms and a few monstrous creatures that can't hack it in a fight at all. Whatever few remaining points the Nids have they would need to invest in a seriously incredible assault unit or two, but it doesn't seem like the Tyranids have one. Atleast not one that isn't simply shot off the board before it does anything.

My early impression is that it will be very tough to shoot the Nids off the board, but that a 75% shooty army with 25% points invested in a destroyer-of-worlds assault unit will have little to fear.

Hive Guard don't need LOS, so all of that terrain means nothing.

Mattbranb wrote:My bad - haven't played Space Wolves yet so I figured they had some kind of anti-psycher ability. Our area hasn't moved into the "allowing special characters" yet for Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40k, so I'm not as worried about super-characters like Logan and such.
Note - if he's running Logan, some rune priests, multiple landraiders, terminator units, etc. etc. - how many scoring units does he have and what is the rest of the army made up of? Don't know the points off had, but wouldn't Logan, terminators and the land raiders run somewhere around 1,000 pts by themselves? I'm used to either 1750 or 1850 lists, would would mean he's putting alot of eggs in non-scoring units baskets.

Wolf Guard Terminators count as Troops when Logan is in the army. So there's plenty of scoring units that are nearly impossible to kill, and they approach in Land Raiders.

Wolf Guard Terminators count as Troops when Logan is in the army. So there's plenty of scoring units that are nearly impossible to kill, and they approach in Land Raiders.

Yeah, they are really tough for Nids. Here is my friend's 2000 point list that he has won 4 tournaments in a row with.

-HQ-

Logan Grimnar

Rune Priest w/ Jaws, Living Lightning

Rune Priest w/ Thunderclap, Living Lightning

-Elites-

Lone Wolf w/ Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

Lone Wolf w/ Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

-Troops-

4 or 5 Wolf Guard Terminators w/ various upgrades like Storm Shields, Wolf Claws, Chainfists, etc. in Land Raider Crusader

Small Unit of Grey Hunters w/ Melta, possible Wolf Guard leader in Rhino

Average sized Blood Claw Squad w/ Wolf Guard w/ Thunderhammer

-Heavy-

Long Fangs w/ 5 ML

Lang Fangs w/ 5 ML

Standard Land Raider


Blood Claws ride in standard raider. Rune Priest w/ Jaws either deploys with the fangs, or in the Rhino, Rune Priest number two joins Logan with the terminators in the Land Raider Crusader.

It may not look like a cohesive army list, but it has quite a few advantages. You can set up a good fire base with the Long Fangs, the Raiders, and the LL Rune Priests. You send Logan and his squad to be the heavy hitters and tackle assaults. And you use the Blood Claws as counter attack or objective taking. Very tough army to outshoot and outmaneuver. It also helps that he is "gifted" with the ability to pass any save he is called to make.

So when I played against him, I was able to use the Deathleaper on his Rune Priest with Jaws and shut it down, but since he has two mobile Runic Weapons, my Zoenthropes where useless against his transports. I threw Carnifexes and Tyrants to kill his Land Raiders, but he doesn't care because he can counter attack with Logan and his squad and easily take such things out. You add that to the Missle Launchers putting wounds on MCs, and you have a problem. The Trygon has a particular problem because he can show up and die if the Long Fangs have LOS on him. I tried to deploy behind cover with it, but eventually you have to go out and tag something, and as soon as he was out in the open, the Long Fangs punished me for it.

Here is the list I think I finally settled on for my next set of test games:

-HQ-

Warrior Alpha w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter, Adrenal Glands = 100

-Elites-

3 Zoenthropes = 180

Deathleaper = 140

-Troops-

15 Termagaunts = 75

Tervigon w/ Scything Talons, Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Regenerate = 200

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

4 Warriors w/ Deathspitters in Pod = 180

-Heavy Support-

Tyrannofex w/ Str. 10 2 Shot Gun = 250

Carnifexes w/ Bioplasma in Pod = 220

Carnifexes w/ Bioplasma, in Pod = 220


Total = 1997

This list gives me a FNP Tyrannofex that can stand up to the Long Fangs punishment as well as have a "you can't cancel this" strength 10 gun to throw at his Land Raiders. I also greatly increased my ability to Alpha Strike, with the Carnifexs acting as "you have to deal with this" distractions, and it provides me cover for out flanking Genestealers. Plus I can put a lot of Termagaunt bodies on the table that can hopefully put some hurting on his units with sheer weight of Furious Charging Poison numbers.

It strikes me that Terminators will have a harder time with hordes of poisonous little bugs than with big bugs or rending bugs. Not only will enough attacks eventually penetrate their Terminator Armour, but it will render Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers inefficient wastes of points Congratulations, your Wolf Guard Terminator with a Thunder Hammer and a Storm Shield just juiced two Hormagaunts.

Mahu wrote:Here in no certain order are the lessons I learned in my first test games. Granted, some of this may be in part to my limited experience. The reason I picked up Nidz in the first place was to have an army totally different then anything I played before, so there is a little adjustment period for me.


1. There are no "stand out" units in this book. It is extremely balanced. Everything has it's strengths and it's weaknesses.

2. The Deathleaper is still my favorite unit. He alone shut down Jaws when I played against the Space Wolves, and Warp time when I played against Chaos Space Marines.

3. The Tervigon is a "meh" choice. Sure you get a scoring MC that can generate new units, but the units it generates are usually small in number and you have a 40% chance to burn out the ability every time you use it. Not to mention that if the Tervigon dies (which isn't hard, see below) then you run the risk of killing all of your scoring units within 18". Top that off with Catalyst being a psychic power and can be shut down, and you have a boatload of points that may not contribute anything to the game.

4. Monstrous Creatures are fragile and expensive. Carnifexes fall before almost every other armies heavy assault units. In my test game against the Wolves, Logan and a small Terminator unit of 4 was able to take down one with full Carnifex in combat before it had a chance to swing. MCs also fall to the massive amount of fire from other armies. When you have 10 missile launchers from Long Fangs hitting your MCs, even with cover, it sheds wounds quickly.

5. Trygons are good, but tricky to use. One game I deployed it too aggressively and it lost 5 wounds before it had a chance to move. The other game I was too conservative with it and my opponent was able to avoid it hitting anything vital. Good deployment can make the creature a non-issue. I did played that you can bring a unit with it the turn you arrive, and that is what I am finding it's main strength to be.

6. Spore Pods are amazing. They are fragile and are easy kill points, but they provide critical cover, and can deliver a massive amount of additional shooting to your army.

7. Hive Guard are another "meh" choice. I could barely cause any damage to tanks with them over the course of three games. I think they are a unit that you either take in numbers (like 6 of them) or you don't take at all.

This is still me adapting, but I am enjoying the army and the challenge it is giving me.

That's really interesting.
I heard that Tervigons are awesome. But this is obviously not the case.
MC are fragile? Possible due to their 3+ saves?
Hive Guard are looking good on paper, too. But even with BS 4 its hard to take down tanks if you only have a few of them.