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I'm really surprised that the VC kept a modifier on the damage roll.

The reason the VC ever got the old "glance only" rule is because people complained about the VC's S8 AP3 Assault 2 (IIRC) profile in the 3rd ed. rulebook list. (Which on a side note goes to show you how far the game has come since that profile was considered highly abusive.) And here we're still stuck with that legacy a decade and three codices later. Why should a S9 gun capable of penetrating the heaviest AV in the game be less capable of wrecking a Chimera on its penetrating hit than a S5 Ogryn on its penetrating hit against the same Chimera? But it's not even about real-world sense, it's about a bad legacy issue that completely hamstrings the weapon.

This also underlines 40K's somewhat wonky and overly complicated mechanics, but that's OT.

Just wondering have you tried 3 T-fexes and slightly less elite anti-tank?

If you look closely you'll notice that both the Venom Cannon and Heavy Venom Cannon only get the -1 against non-Open Topped vehicles.

But then it's only there to Shake, Stun and Immobilize that Chimera until the S9 AP6 Heavy Twin-Linked Melta 4 munition carrying it can be brought to bear.

Linkdead wrote:Just wondering have you tried 3 T-fexes and slightly less elite anti-tank?

Not yet... next step is to see about adding a venomthrope unit... i'll probably do that this thursday in my next test game. I they work out, even decently, then we could all be more confident adding big bugs and removing screens.

gorgon wrote:I'm really surprised that the VC kept a modifier on the damage roll.

The reason the VC ever got the old "glance only" rule is because people complained about the VC's S8 AP3 Assault 2 (IIRC) profile in the 3rd ed. rulebook list. (Which on a side note goes to show you how far the game has come since that profile was considered highly abusive.) And here we're still stuck with that legacy a decade and three codices later. Why should a S9 gun capable of penetrating the heaviest AV in the game be less capable of wrecking a Chimera on its penetrating hit than a S5 Ogryn on its penetrating hit against the same Chimera? But it's not even about real-world sense, it's about a bad legacy issue that completely hamstrings the weapon.

This also underlines 40K's somewhat wonky and overly complicated mechanics, but that's OT.

Thank you. It isn't like we are going to go blowing armored companies off the table if venom cannons suddenly become un-nerfed.

Isn't there a thematic reason for VCs to be less effective against vehicles, though, in that they're shooting venom, for anti-infantry purposes?

I agree that there's no game balance need for them to be -1 on the damage chart, mind.

To anyone wondering Deathleaper is sold out so if you want one I was told it could be a couple of weeks.

Was nice of GW to send me a new DL (soon as they are back in stock) to replace the partial one I got (the one I ordered a couple of weeks ago is missing a head and his left leg). So I was going to run 3 Lictors this weekend in a brood and 1 DL. Now I'll have to proxy DL and cut the Lictor brood down to 2 and then make up the 65pts somewhere else.

So GW customer service is excellent. I get a whole new DL model and I have bits from the "almost complete" DL to customize something. Just a shame I won't get to try my original list (I could take something else to make up 140 but I want to try him out).

It's good to start seeing more level-headed discussion now that we are 20 some pages into it. LOL.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Isn't there a thematic reason for VCs to be less effective against vehicles, though, in that they're shooting venom, for anti-infantry purposes? .

But if you want it to do that you make it Str 7 AP 3 Poison 2+ or similar. So it is good at killing troops but a bit weaker vs tanks.

Lyracian wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote:Isn't there a thematic reason for VCs to be less effective against vehicles, though, in that they're shooting venom, for anti-infantry purposes? .

But if you want it to do that you make it Str 7 AP 3 Poison 2+ or similar. So it is good at killing troops but a bit weaker vs tanks.

No, it's a venom cannon, not a poison cannon. Which are completely different things

It fires shards of crystalized, acid poison at super sonic speeds. The old old fluff for the gun talked about how incredibly Good it was at taking out tanks, because the crystals would pierce the tank, where they then shattered and shrapneled the crew. If that wasn't bad enough, they would melt soon after into a slimy acidic poison, killing any crew they had wounded, and melting any internal mechanical components they had come into contact with.

Sure, but in the old old rules it was a Lascannon with a Thudd-Gun template (that's a Thunderfire Cannon to you more recent people).

Was it the Venom Cannon, or a different `Nid gun, where in the old old rules you would keep rolling damage on the tank each turn after you had shot it? -1 to the roll for each turn after, but still. Who wouldn't love that now days?

I think that might have actually been the Barbed Strangler. I'm slightly disappointed that they didn't take my suggestion that Barbed Stranglers and similar weapons make difficult terrain, but them's the breaks.

It was Spore Mines that kept on damaging vehicles after gaining a foothold. Barbed Stranglers were totally different - IIRC they fired a single bolter equivalent shot at medium range, which if it wounded and beat armour inflicted instant death and then grabbed everything under a 6" template, removing them from play if they failed a Strength test on 2D6.

Also, Lictors were the only ones with Implant Attacks, Flesh Hooks acted as fishing lines, Gargoyles each carried a S3 flamer that inflicted two hits if you didn't move out of the way, Regeneration worked on a 4+, and Hormagaunts were the fastest footslogging unit in the universe.

No, the Barbed Strangler sucked vs tanks as I recall. It fired a single shot that was the equivalent of a Bolter, but if that shot caused a Wound then you put down a Large Blast template and anything it touched had to pass an Int test or was instantly killed regardless of armor/wounds/ect.

As I think about it more, I think it was the Exocrine's Bio-Cannon that did the continuous damage rolls.

P.S. Woooo! Nidstalgia!

Speaking of, remember when the Adrenal Gland allowed a Carnifex to run and also shoot its Bio-Plasma? Dominion actually lets you do that now. This whole Codex is a nostalgia trip.

Onslaught lets you run and shoot, Domination extends Synapse range to 18". Don't recall that version of Adrenals however.

I stand corrected on Dominion. Onslaught is what does it. Still, nifty.

lindsay40k wrote:

Lyracian wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote:Isn't there a thematic reason for VCs to be less effective against vehicles, though, in that they're shooting venom, for anti-infantry purposes? .

But if you want it to do that you make it Str 7 AP 3 Poison 2+ or similar. So it is good at killing troops but a bit weaker vs tanks.

No, it's a venom cannon, not a poison cannon. Which are completely different things

Technically they are. Poison refers to anything that is deadly when ingested Venom refers to anything that is deadly when inflicted (usually through a bite or sting).

So a frog is poisonous but a cobra is venomous (some snakes are poisonous too! but cobras aren't)

I believe that distinction only holds true for animals though or else making arrows with poison dart frog poison wouldn't give you poisoned arrows but rather venomous arrows.

Nids are giant bugs though so technically those "poison" sacs should be "venom sacs".

Oh and a Toxin is any substance which is deadly when you merely come into contact with it so poison ivy is in fact toxic ivy.

Unless you go and e.... you know what? I'm not even going to suggest that that happens.

I do recall though that apparently assault cannons used to be the bane of Tyranids thanks to the sustained fire dice. I didn't play 2nd but thats what I heard.

Well, I believe they had krak missles stats but had 3 sustained fire.

So you could if you got lucky launch 18 assault cannon shots into anything. Even termies had to fear the assault cannon as its AS mod was like -5.

More often than not you rolled 3 jams instead of 3 6's but such is life.

And when you rolled 3 jams, it ASPLODED!

Sustained fire dice had two 1's, two 2's one 3, and one "jam"

the maximum number of shots was 9
rolling 3 jams resulted in the firer automatically dying.

They had a range of 32", got +1 to hit within 12" strength 8, D10 damage, -3 save modifier, so marines needed 6's to save against it, they rolled D6+D10+8 for armor penetration.

Also, Dreadnoughts ignored the first jam rolled on the sustained fire dice.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:

Lyracian wrote:

Ian Sturrock wrote:Isn't there a thematic reason for VCs to be less effective against vehicles, though, in that they're shooting venom, for anti-infantry purposes? .

But if you want it to do that you make it Str 7 AP 3 Poison 2+ or similar. So it is good at killing troops but a bit weaker vs tanks.

No, it's a venom cannon, not a poison cannon. Which are completely different things

Technically they are. Poison refers to anything that is deadly when ingested Venom refers to anything that is deadly when inflicted (usually through a bite or sting).

So a frog is poisonous but a cobra is venomous (some snakes are poisonous too! but cobras aren't)

I believe that distinction only holds true for animals though or else making arrows with poison dart frog poison wouldn't give you poisoned arrows but rather venomous arrows.

Nids are giant bugs though so technically those "poison" sacs should be "venom sacs".

Oh and a Toxin is any substance which is deadly when you merely come into contact with it so poison ivy is in fact toxic ivy.

Okay, is everyone clear on this? Don't eat the Tyranids!

Still nastier than it's ever been since than. I'd take the risk of rolling 3 jams if I could possibly fire off 9krak missles a turn -3 AS mod is equivalent to AP3 now.

LR's being left to the domain of T-fexes, MC CC & Zoanthropes..

What about standard lictors (packs of 2) for anti-armour. AV11-13 nearly always has rear AV10. Now zoanthropes come down in a Spod and will die after they shoot. Scattering is a bit random but with the new rules its not too bad.

What about fleshhooks? Str6 assault 2 rending, Marbo-esk "place anywhere" deployment (no scatter, extremely flexible).. Question is, is a minimal str6 (but near-guarenteed av10 targets) 2-shot weapon with rending going to be more effective than Zoanthropes for anti non-LR vehicles? Or am I just waay off as I've just noticed AP-

I think they aren't bad, it's just that the hive guard or zoanthropes are better for vehicle hunting. Although a brood of 3 is quite nice for taking the heat off some MC's if they deploy close to an infantry firebase. If they don't tackle them then next turn you can potentially assault and call in more DS stuff.

Razerous wrote:LR's being left to the domain of T-fexes, MC CC & Zoanthropes..

What about standard lictors (packs of 2) for anti-armour. AV11-13 nearly always has rear AV10. Now zoanthropes come down in a Spod and will die after they shoot. Scattering is a bit random but with the new rules its not too bad.

What about fleshhooks? Str6 assault 2 rending, Marbo-esk "place anywhere" deployment (no scatter, extremely flexible).. Question is, is a minimal str6 (but near-guarenteed av10 targets) 2-shot weapon with rending going to be more effective than Zoanthropes for anti non-LR vehicles? Or am I just waay off as I've just noticed AP-

If they rend, they are no longer 'ap:-'.

So only if you are shooting at av10 and roll a 4, will that 'ap:-' come into play.

Anyone try a Bug flying circus? I'm thinking of building something like that.

2 Flyrants or a Flyrant and Parasite

(these 3 mix how you like)
Gargoyles
Shrike unit
Harpy

Then fill in the rest with stuff, possibly spod in some gaunts, gants warriors or whatever else.

GG

I made a nice double flyrant 2 harpy list, all with heavy VC and screened by a unit of gargyles, You can replace a flyrant with the parasite. Add in a fes spore podding Darnifex(hurr hurr) or biovores for sporemining, and you can surround most armies by turn 4. Give it a try.