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So what your saying is a rule that saying jump infantry may deep strike is applicable to infantry model? I think not

No, what he's saying is that despite the fact being able to Deep Strike is listed under the Movement section of Jump Infantry, it has nothing to do with how they Move.

Gwar! wrote:-Sigh-

Models MOVE as if Jump Infantry.

They do NOT Follow all the rules found in the Movement section of Jump Infantry.

They only MOVE AS IF JUMP INFANTRY. As in, when you move them, they move as if Jump Infantry, but are NOT Jump Infantry and CANNOT deep strike as Jump Infantry.

DEEP STRIKING IS NOT MOVEMENT.

Get it now?

I completely get what you are saying, but based on the statements by several people before I can't fully agree with you any longer. There is definitely a significant gray area here with the deep strike being included in the 'movement rules' for Jump Infantry.

Models move as if Jump Infantry.

How do JI move?

Read JI Movement paragraph, which includes DS. Its ambiguous at best. Hurray GW!

FoolWhip wrote:I completely get what you are saying, but based on the statements by several people before I can't fully agree with you any longer. There is definitely a significant gray area here with the deep strike being included in the 'movement rules' for Jump Infantry.

Models move as if Jump Infantry.

How do JI move?

Read JI Movement paragraph, which includes DS. Its ambiguous at best. Hurray GW!

So, you are saying, that an Infantry or MC Model is allowed to Deep Strike despite it being a rule applicable only to Jump Infantry?

Jump Infanty Move 12", Assault 6". That is how Jump Infantry Move. Moving as if Jump infantry allows you to move the same way as though you were jump infantry. it does NOT allow you any other benefits of jump infantry, it only allows you to MOVE as if Jump Infantry. Norbu and the others are 100% Wrong from a RaW standpoint.

Gwar! wrote:

FoolWhip wrote:I completely get what you are saying, but based on the statements by several people before I can't fully agree with you any longer. There is definitely a significant gray area here with the deep strike being included in the 'movement rules' for Jump Infantry.

Models move as if Jump Infantry.

How do JI move?

Read JI Movement paragraph, which includes DS. Its ambiguous at best. Hurray GW!

So, you are saying, that an Infantry or MC Model is allowed to Deep Strike despite it being a rule applicable only to Jump Infantry?

Jump Infanty Move 12", Assault 6". That is how Jump Infantry Move. Moving as if Jump infantry allows you to move the same way as though you were jump infantry. it does NOT allow you any other benefits of jump infantry, it only allows you to MOVE as if Jump Infantry. Norbu and the others are 100% Wrong from a RaW standpoint.

I am saying it is equally interpretable RAW. It should be FAQ'd.

The only reason I can think they might have done it is to ensure abilities like JoWW would still affect them. (It's been a bit since I read on JoWW, but I believe it doesn't have affect on JI.) Or maybe they are terrible with specifics...

If a tyrant was both MC and Jump infantry ... then JOWW could target him as he is still a MC and that's all that's need.


edit ... You could say that it was changed because games workshop didn't want Tyrants to be able deep strike. When the last codex was written deep-striking was a rare ability one which many model had to pay to get. New core rule book and all jump infantry can now deep-strike even if they haven't purchased the upgrade. That's not how its meant to work so GW changes it back as it re-releases the codices

It is under movement for jump infantry so a Tyrant with wings can DS. Anyone telling you that you can't is wrong. I can not even think of a reason why anyone would want to stop you from doing it. Nobody in this thread has offered any valid reason to say no you can not DS a Tyrant with wings. It is VERY clearly stated under MOVEMENT for jump infantry, and a Tyrant with wings is allowed everything listed under movement for jump infantry. And if you argue it is not movement, then why is it under movement? RAW even supports that they can DS since as per RAW you find that jump infantry deep strike is under movement.

Anyways I think I will delete this site now. Over all it has been useless in my search for helpful information, just a place for egomaniacs to correct your spelling and argue for the sake of arguing. I will just keep to the GW faqs and rule books, and trust in organizers that have done a great job in all my battles.

TheJuan wrote:The new codex is the exact same on wings as the last codex so no change there.

In case anyone is curious, this part is patently wrong. The old codex states "Winged creatures are treated as Jump Infantry in all respects".

To "The Juan" you may never read this, but this site can be extremely helpful for finding information on grey areas in the rules. Experienced players from all over the globe throw in their opinion and though it may vary from mine, I like looking at the differant points of view, no matter how "loud" they appear to be

To GWAR, I guess I just disagree with you on this one. Almost everytime I agree with you on this site and I like that you usually quote the rules to back up your opinion, but on this issue I have to side with they can deepstrike. I understand your side of the argument, that they "move" as jump infantry as in the distances they cover, but I think the deepstrike side of the rule is in the movement paragraph because deepstriking is done during the movement phase. What phase does deepstriking occur once the game has begun? If it is indeed the movement phase that can you not at least conceed people could interprate this as movement by jump infantry.

If indeed you would allow omition of the deep strike side of movement, then couldnt someone then argue that they wouldnt need to make a dangerous terrain roll if landing in difficult ground. If your argument is infantry and MC's do not deepstrike, then you could argue those same units do not take dangerous terrain tests in difficult ground. They only "move" as jump inf. not take dangerous tests as jump inf. I think you get the good and the bad, everything, out of the movement paragraph.

the only MC with Wings that can DS is Our Daemonic Monsters. I.e Bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Daemon Prince with wings.
Other than that it should state in their entry.

I think it can be argued either way (obviously?), but I think despite moving as jump infantry, it cannot be deployed as jump infantry nor be held in reserves as jump infantry (including arriving from reserves as jump infantry). This would preclude it from deepstriking as jump infantry.

/shrug

kirsanth wrote:

TheJuan wrote:The new codex is the exact same on wings as the last codex so no change there.

In case anyone is curious, this part is patently wrong. The old codex states "Winged creatures are treated as Jump Infantry in all respects".

Which is why people should:
a) Read the Codex before posting
b) Listen to the people who actually have the codex

Yup, I think Norbu the Destroyer has it right.

Nurglitch wrote:Yup, I think Norbu the Destroyer has it right.

If I may ask, why?

How does allowing something to Move as Jump Infantry, without it becoming Jump infantry, allow it to Deep Strike?

Because the rules that allow it to Deep Strike are under the Movement rules for Jump Infantry.

Aduro wrote:Because the rules that allow it to Deep Strike are under the Movement rules for Jump Infantry.

And the rules for Run are in the Shooting section, but Running is still movement.

Deep Striking is NOT movement, and being able to Move as Jump Infantry does NOT allow you to Deep Strike.

+1 to Gwar's argument. "Moves as" jump infantry is different from "moves and deploys as" or "counts as" or even "is the same in all respects as" jump infantry.

Note that the Deep Strike rules state that units having arrived via Deep Strike "counts as having moved." Deep Striking is not a movement...

I could believe that this was an unintentional omission, though I like the theory above about moving to make Deep Strike less prevalent, but it's not like this would be the first time in 40k that actual wording did not implement intended behavior...

IMO, RAW sides with a hive tyrant with wings being allowed to deep strike.

With RAW you can't pick and choose what rules entries you want to follow. In this case, deep strike does fall under the movement description for jump infantry so anyone that were to follow the rules per RAW would read the entry and see that deep striking is included.

You can rant up and down that Deep Strike is not movement per the Deep Strike rules on page 95, but it is labeled as movement on page 52 of the Jump Infantry movement rules.

Brother Ramses wrote:IMO, RAW sides with a hive tyrant with wings being allowed to deep strike.

Well, your opinion is wrong.

With RAW you can't pick and choose what rules entries you want to follow.

Except where the RaW says to, like in this case.

In this case, deep strike does fall under the movement description for jump infantry so anyone that were to follow the rules per RAW would read the entry and see that deep striking is included.

-Sigh-

Page 85 of the Chaos Codex says that models that have wings can arrive using Deep Strike rules.

Yes, I understand that it might not apply to Hive Tyrants as Codex trumps BRB, but I still think it's relevant to the conversation. I haven't read the new Nid Codex yet.

Monster Rain wrote:Page 85 of the Chaos Codex says that models that have wings can arrive using Deep Strike rules.

Splendid!

We are, however, talking about the Tyranid Codex.

Gwar! wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Page 85 of the Chaos Codex says that models that have wings can arrive using Deep Strike rules.

Splendid!

We are, however, talking about the Tyranid Codex.

Very well then! I don't want Hive Tyrants starting out any closer than they have to anyway.

Brother Ramses wrote:In this case, deep strike does fall under the movement description for jump infantry so anyone that were to follow the rules per RAW would read the entry and see that deep striking is included.

You can rant up and down that Deep Strike is not movement per the Deep Strike rules on page 95, but it is labeled as movement on page 52 of the Jump Infantry movement rules.

That's ascribing prescriptive meaning to the paragraph heading, when they're clearly used throughout the book in a simply descriptive fashion to make it readable and nicely formatted. Again, I could definitely believe the intent was for winged models to be able to Deep Strike, but that's not well supported by the chosen words or that the Chaos codex makes that explicit, etc.

I have to go with Gwar! on this one. I see no reason that deep strike would be considered movement if the CSM codex found it necessary to list Deep Striking as a different rule than moving as jump infantry in their wings entry if they were the same.

Then again, you never know with GW...

Gwar is absolutely correct in this matter. Those that disagree are required to attend remedial English class. Alternatively, You may meet this requirement by looking up the definition of a simile.

Chaos303 wrote:I have to go with Gwar! on this one. I see no reason that deep strike would be considered movement if the CSM codex found it necessary to list Deep Striking as a different rule than moving as jump infantry in their wings entry if they were the same.

Then again, you never know with GW...

The CSM codex was written before 5th edition, which gave all jump infantry deep strike.

Splendid!

We are, however, talking about the Tyranid Codex.

There is something in the real world called precedent...so given it is a grey zone, follow the precedent which would allow for them to deep strike

GW makes no precedent, changing things on a whim per codex. What is true for one codex is not true for another.

The real question is would you have the brass balls to actually DS a Tyrant....

If it can drop in and kill its points value, and tie up enough shooting to get itself killed, then it did its job.