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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pp52, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Jump Infantry can use ther jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement Phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using Jump Packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actully possibly to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by deep strike as explained on Pp95.

So, what is the important part? At no point does the Tyrant actually become Jump Infantry, he merely gains their movement rules.

Easy when you read your rule book.

Wait, wasn't this whole section you just quoted from the Movement Rules of Jump Infantry... which you just said "he merely gains their movement rules".... now i'm really puzzled.

So are you reading the thread before you jump into the discussion? I'll say it again.

So the question is this: Why are you selectively applying the movement text on page 52 in the BRB? By your reasoning I don't have to treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain because it says "a moving jump infantry model" has to do so, right? Oh, and Jump Infantry models can't end their move on top of other models! Gee whiz, I guess a winged Hive Tyrant can, since it's not jump infantry! Weak sauce, if you follow your arguments to their logical conclusion.

You can't have it both ways.

airmang wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pp52, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Jump Infantry can use ther jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement Phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using Jump Packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actully possibly to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by deep strike as explained on Pp95.

So, what is the important part? At no point does the Tyrant actually become Jump Infantry, he merely gains their movement rules.

Easy when you read your rule book.

Wait, wasn't this whole section you just quoted from the Movement Rules of Jump Infantry... which you just said "he merely gains their movement rules".... now i'm really puzzled.

+1

They get the movement rules, just not the last line of the rules covered in the movement section for some reason.

YEs I can, because if you bothered reading what I had posted, it follows the MOVEMENT rule for Jump Infantry.

Deep Striking, as I keep saying, and you keep ignoring, IS NOT MOVEMENT. IT IS DEPLOYMENT.

You are making a false assumption.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:YEs I can, because if you bothered reading what I had posted, it follows the MOVEMENT rule for Jump Infantry.

Exactly, so they move 12 inches! No dangerous terrain checks, no moving over terrain freely... because they're not jump infantry! Right? We're only following the first rule in the paragraph, because that's the only part that's "movement" right?

No. Because all of that is under the movement heading. Just like Deep Strike.

As I said above, Deep Striking is *not* movement, it is deployment.

Please show the RaW that is leading you to this conclusion. The counter conclusion is illustrated by:

The mention of the DS ability being under the "movement" section for jump infantry oon page 52 of the BRB. Then on page 95 we find the rules for Ceep Striking:

"In the movement Phase the arrive, these units may not move further" stress was added by me. Therefore they have already moved.

"In that turn's shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase." Again reference to having moved.

"they are too disrupted by their deep strike move." Again notice deep strike move.

So please explain to me how you come to the conclusion DSing isn't a type of movement?

damn if one of you asked your spouse to look at wings rule then read the movement section in jump infantry they would agree that they can ds but dont get move through cover and can take wounds anything further on this is just painfull as the awnser is quite obvious they can. period. unless in your logic chain they dont take wounds upon landing as thats not movement. stop hitting your heads against a wall that says yes they can. so obvious.

Deep Striking is not listed under movement rules. It is instead listed as an alternate form of deployment, end of.

Last time i checked the rules, deployment occured before the game has begun. Correct. Then once the game has begun what are the phases of the game, Movement, Shooting,Assualt.....What phase of the game do units deploy after the game has started...ummmmm, oh yeah the movement phase. There is no deployment phase before the movement phase has begun. So what some are arguing is that there is a new phase to the game. First we have Deployment phase, then movement and then shooting/assualt phase. Moving as if you are jump infantry means you move as if you are jump infantry. Deepstriking occurs during the movment phase.

In almost everygame i play in, my opponent after assualts goes, "Your Move". And you know why they say "Your move", it is because it is the movement phase, not the deployment phase. So if i move like jump infantry, i guess i can deepstrike because that is considered movement because that is what phase of the game I'm in.

On another point, i'm sure the people who are against the hive tyrant deepstriking believe the hive tyrant should take dangerous terrain checks jumping into cover, but by your arguements they shouldn't because the are MCs and not jump infantry.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Except I am, to the letter. Deep Striking is an alternate form of Deployment.

that GW decided to list under "movement" for jump infantry... and you count as having moved when using it... and you can't move after doing it... because it's movement! wings get it. you're not following RAW but RAYHAW (rules as you have additionally written).

Special K is a genius. I don't know why I never saw this before...

Deep Strike does happen in the movement phase!

Also, RAYHAW is my new favorite acronym ever.

Deep Striking is not listed under movement rules. It is instead listed as an alternate form of deployment, end of.

You've just made this up DS is mentioned nowhere under the deployment rules. It is listed under the Mission Special rules. Is moving on from reserve now not a type of movement? Is night fighting a type of deployment? Do vehicles never move or shoot or get shot at as their rules are listed under the vehicles section not the movement or shooting sections?

Please back up with RaW why DS is not a type of movement.

GW probably stopped elaborating on the JP/Wings thing because they figured we would easily come to an agreement and follow the idea they had intended. :checks page amount in this thread: Well...there is still hope for a settlement at some point.

Kurgash wrote:GW probably stopped elaborating on the JP/Wings thing because they figured we would easily come to an agreement and follow the idea they had intended. :checks page amount in this thread: Well...there is still hope for a settlement at some point.

Correct, Hence the start of universal rules style, where the rules are put in and all follow the same wording,

this was better then having to check 3-4 books, like in 2nd ed,


Thusly,

Wings= DS,


Though according to RAYHAW, (Yeah I love it)

The swarmlord is not a hive tyrant, and thusly cannot use any powers since they all hive tyrant powers, and he cannot regain wounds back since it only gives the wounds to hive tyrant that fired it,
Which he isnt,


Silly Rabbit,
Trix are for kids,

Now the real question,

How many of you guys who believe wings dont count for movement rules (AKA deep strike)
would fire at the valkyrie if you only spot the wings,

What's this about the Valkyrie, now?

We could bring up a previous discussion ( can Scarab Swarms run ? ) and apply the mechanics here. In that topic the majority was in favor that Scarab Swarms ( and similar Infantry that Move Like Jetbikes ) could not run - despite being infantry they had to follow all movement rules that applied to jetbikes --> bikes ... since bikes cannot run then things that move like bikes cannot run.

With that process in mind I would think that Nids-n-Wings would be allowed to Deep Strike since they should follow all of the movement rules for Jump Infantry since they are moving like Jump Infantry ( they just aren't actually Jump Infantry ).

And yes, I understand that DS in an element of Deployment, but it is movement as well - saying that it isn't would mean that as an example: a DS unit that has weapon type Rapid Fire would be able to land and fire their weapons once up to their max range ( or double tap within the 12 inch range ).

Monster Rain wrote:What's this about the Valkyrie, now?

You have to draw LOS to the hull or turret of vehicles you wish to fire at, and ignore other elements,

Thus,

Wings are ignored since they are not part of the hull.

Lost Ripper wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:What's this about the Valkyrie, now?

You have to draw LOS to the hull or turret of vehicles you wish to fire at, and ignore other elements,

Thus,

Wings are ignored since they are not part of the hull.

Hull: the main body of a usually large or heavy craft or vehicle (as an airship or tank)

I think Merriam-Webster would disagree with that assessment.

Of course, one could argue that wings aren't part of the main body of an airship. But then, it wouldn't be much of an airship without them.

No they as well as you agree, The Body... Thus the wings are not part of the body or hull of the airship.
Hehe, read the definition again,
Hull, The Main Body.

Just so wwe are clear about parts of a plane,
According to NASA
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/airplane.html

toxic_wisdom wrote:I understand that DS in an element of Deployment, but it is movement as well - saying that it isn't would mean that as an example: a DS unit that has weapon type Rapid Fire would be able to land and fire their weapons once up to their max range ( or double tap within the 12 inch range ).

That doesn't actually follow from what anyone on either side has said. By the wording on pg 95, conveniently left out in several of the posts above, Deep Striking units "count as having moved." They didn't actually move, but they count as having moved, so they can't max range fire their Rapid Fire weapons, use Heavy Weapons, etc.

Monster Rain wrote:I think Merriam-Webster would disagree with that assessment.

Merriam-Webster can go suck on a lemon. The Rules are Written in English. Merriam-Webster is not an English Dictionary. Try Oxford next time.

From OXford,
hull1

• noun the main body of a ship or other vessel, including the bottom, sides and deck but not the superstructure, engines, and other fittings.

Lost Ripper wrote:From OXford,
hull1

• noun the main body of a ship or other vessel, including the bottom, sides and deck but not the superstructure, engines, and other fittings.

I'll get the ice for that burn....

Errm, it's not a burn? I was not disputing the Definition, I was disputing the Source.

Also, putting Ice on a Burn is about the WORST thing you can do. If it's a light superficial burn, you want to keep it running under cold water, but not ice.

If it's a Srs burn, well, call a bloody ambulance!

Gwar! wrote:Merriam-Webster can go suck on a lemon. The Rules are Written in English. Merriam-Webster is not an English Dictionary. Try Oxford next time.

*facepalm*

Gwar. . . you can't arbitrarily throw out the understanding of the language that, oh, MUCH OF THE WORLD has of a language because you don't personally like it. American English is much wore widespread than British English is, actually, so regardless of your personal and unsupported opinion, American English and, yes, American dictionaries are going to be used. That's just a fact. It's not something that can be debated, even.

American English is much wore widespread than British English is, actually, so regardless of your personal and unsupported opinion, American English and, yes, American dictionaries are going to be used. That's just a fact. It's not something that can be debated, even.

It has nothing to do with "liking" a language the rule book is written in British English hence that is the only relevant language for discussing the rules. American English, French, German or any other language are irrelevant for rules discussions relating to GW products.

That doesn't actually follow from what anyone on either side has said. By the wording on pg 95, conveniently left out in several of the posts above, Deep Striking units "count as having moved." They didn't actually move, but they count as having moved, so they can't max range fire their Rapid Fire weapons, use Heavy Weapons, etc.

What phase does it happen in? Why is it described as a "deep strike move"? Why does it state that you cannot move "further" (hence have already moved some way).

Please state what Deep strike is if not movement? Please state the rules governing this.

No its fine as to the source,
Book was written by Uk english users,
So we should get those definitions,
Like the possible difference of UK Billions, and US Billions,

The valk question has been debated several times, and can certainly be debated in its own thread again if one so desires.

Lets see, new fallacies have cropped up as well as a few of the old ones arising yet again.

Deepstrike may certainly be a form of deployment, that would be interesting but has nothing to do with whether or not DS is also some form of a move.

Looking under the rules on pg 95 we find that DS most certainly IS CATEGORICALLY a move. Read the ds rules please.

MC certainly can DS, we have multiple examples that hacve been brought up to show that they can. In fact, just about any type of unit can deep strike, Jump infantry can all deep strike, various infantry can deepstrike (such as termies), various MC can deepstrike (just look at a few of the other tryranid entries) and of course vehicles can deepstrike.


Just go back to the basics yet again, since people dont seem to want to read the previous posts on the thread:

1) Winged models move as jump infantry
2) Jump infantry can deep strike
3) Deep strike is a move
4) Winged models move as jump infantry, there for they can deepstrike

Number 1 is the basis of what is written in the tyrandi codex, number 2 is (hopefully) being accepted as true for jump infantry.

Some people seem to be having a problem with number 3, but as has been posted several times the rules on deep strike on pg 95 call deep strike a move. Even if you are looking at deepstrike as a form of deployment there is nothing to suggest that deepstrike cant also be other things as well, being deployment is not somehow exclusive.

Once number 3 is understood, we have to go along with number 4 as well. If jump infantry move in several ways (which they do, they can walk up to 6", they can *jump* up to 12" and they can deepstrike) then winged models can also move in several ways. However jump infantry move, winged creatures move that same way.

No model can deepstrike unless it is somehow given that ability. Some models have the ability listed on their statlines in the codex. Some models gain deepstrike through the use of some item of gear. Some models gain deepstrike because of their unit type (jump infantry)

There is no listing of the deepstrike under the terminator listing in the SM codex, yet we know that they can deepstrike because of their gear (termie armor). Just as there is no listing of deepstrike under any of the tyranids listings for winged creatures in the tyranid codex, yet we know they can deepstrike because of their gear (wings).


Sliggoth