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I have to say I never really paid any attention to the finer wording of the wings biomorph. I will be bringing this to the attention of my gaming group and just see how they think it should be played. I would say that's probably the safest way to play it, regardless of who is right or wrong, until an FAQ comes out.

The DS rules state "a UNIT..." may deepstrike.

An attached IC without DS is part of the unit, yes?

Therefore the UNIT does NOT have DS and therefore may NOT DS. When answering the question "does the unit have DS?" You are unable to answer Yes or No - you can only answer "partly"

This does not fulfill the criteria for allowing the unit to Deepstrike, therefore it cannot deepstrike. In other words - the unit does not need to explicitly lose DS when a non DS IC joins because it cant use it anyway.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The DS rules state "a UNIT..." may deepstrike.

An attached IC without DS is part of the unit, yes?

Therefore the UNIT does NOT have DS and therefore may NOT DS. When answering the question "does the unit have DS?" You are unable to answer Yes or No - you can only answer "partly"

This does not fulfill the criteria for allowing the unit to Deepstrike, therefore it cannot deepstrike. In other words - the unit does not need to explicitly lose DS when a non DS IC joins because it cant use it anyway.

i can see it now 2 space marines holding the librarian in artificer armour as they jump out of the thunderhawk. Personally i think this is cover by page 48 'Special Rules' but that's just me.

As to the person that mentioned moving like cavalry ... they would move like infantry, no fleet (it is no longer a movement) but charge 12"

"Jump infantry units may enter the battle by deepsrtike" is the tyrant a unit of Jump infantry? No? then they get nothing.

I can imagine it now - the librarian wishing hed remembered where his jump pack was as one marine gets shot out the sky, resulting in a nice pinwheel effect around the combined centre of gravity of the Libby and Assault Marine...

I can picture it now, the captain with jump pack holding a daisy chain of sternguard as he deep strikes in because this is a ridiculous slippery slope of an argument.

Drunkspleen wrote:I can picture it now, the captain with jump pack holding a daisy chain of sternguard as he deep strikes in because this is a ridiculous slippery slope of an argument.

If we were gonna go that far then I'd go further 55 man blobbed infantry platoon being teleported in by a single Malleus Inquisitor in terminator armour (DH total 40pts)

well off topic but it is clear of two things hive tyrant w wings can deepstrike i have only seen badly done rationalizations trying to say "no,cause ..." with no real explanation of why. and in two places in the nid codex states that a swarmlord is a tyrant the fact that it was missed as a direct declaration and saying strange things as in no doom has no warp field makes me question your assumptions in these cases

Since a few people have (again) mistated the wording of the rule, lets go (once again) back to the basics:


"Models equipped with with wings move in the same way as jump infantry.."


So we now understand that winged models are not counted as jump infantry, they arent moving like jump infantry, they arent doing abything except: Winged models move in the same way as jump infantry

Now, how do jump infantry move?

We look to the jump infantry rules, and there is a convenient section called movement. They can move as regular infantry in the movement phase, they can move up to 12" by using their jump packs with a few added factors, and there is a line at the end saying that jump infantry may enter the battle by deep strike. Hmm, so jump infantry can do this thing called deepstrike, but even tho its listed under the movement rules....is it in some way a move?

Off to the rules on deep strike to find out.


On pg 95 we find the following under deepstrike:

"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, ..."

Move any further certainly means that they have already moved.


We also have:

"they are too disrupted by theri deep strike move."

As clear can be, by RAW we have deep strike is indeed a type of move.





So to recap:

1) Winged models move as jump infantry.
2) Jump infantry can deep strike.
3) Deep strike is a move.

Therefore we have the result: Winged infantry can deep strike.



Early on we had some people saying that deep strike wasnt a move, but we see that instead it IS a move (no matter what else it may be as well). We also have people saying that only models called jump infantry on their entry can deep strike, but thats not taking into account the more specific rules of the winged models. Winged models are not jump infantry, they just get to move however jump infantry moves.

Unless someone can supply an answer to the above it seems quite clear that winged models can deepstrike.


Sliggoth


PS Talking about how or if SM of various sorts deep strike might be interesting, but isnt really relevant to this discussion unless the space marine happens to be winged. We have a very specific rule for winged models here and how they move.

Lost Ripper wrote:well off topic but it is clear of two things hive tyrant w wings can deepstrike i have only seen badly done rationalizations trying to say "no,cause ..." with no real explanation of why. and in two places in the nid codex states that a swarmlord is a tyrant the fact that it was missed as a direct declaration and saying strange things as in no doom has no warp field makes me question your assumptions in these cases

Because a swarmlord is not a hive tyrant, and Doom is not a Zoanthrope. Read the unit entry, not the fluff. States nowhere they are.

People keep quoting page 95, yet to notice the last sentence of the Movement part on page 52. It says JUMP INFANTRY UNITS may DS, not models that move like them. Hence if your Unit type isn't Jump Infantry you don't get to deep strike.

@ InquisitorFabius We also have a rule saying that winged models move as jump infantry.

Once again, there is no need for the winged models to actually BE jump infantry.

Winged models move as jump infantry move, agreed?

Jump infantry can deep strike, agreed?

Deep strike is in some way a move, agreed?

So winged models can deep strike.


Quoting that jump infantry can deep strike is helpful, just keep following the logic process and dont stop there. If deep strike is a move then you are just confirming that winged models can deep strike.

If there was a rule somewhere that stated only jump infantry can deep strike, then perhaps there would be room to argue; however there is no such requirement that a unit be jump infantry in order to deep strike. Deep strike tells us that itself, it even happens to mention flying as one of the means of using deep strike.


Sliggoth

Moving as and being are two totally separate things. That is the difference. Models that act like JI are not true JI, thus can not DS.

To use your own formula:

Is a Hive Tyrant Jump Infantry? No, it is a MC.

Can a MC DS? No.

A Hive Tyrant can not Deep Strike as its Unit Type is MC.

Please quote where a model has to be jump infantry in order to be able to deep strike?

There is no such requirement that I can find in the BGB. Of course, if there was such a rule then termies couldnt deep strike, or the various other units that can burrow to deep strike etc. Winged models do not have to be jump infantry.

Moving as is ALL thats needed, if deep strike is a move.



Sliggoth

Please tell me where I even came remotely close to stating such.

Also all your examples have specific instructions as to the fact that they can Deep Strike.

well as to hive tyrant statement under tyrant guard it clearly states that the swarmlord is a tyrant , and for the jump pack statement since a mc w wings gets " moves in the same way as jump infantry " if that doesnt mean that you follow the rules for jp movement -which includes rules for ds on page 95 - then i must assume there is a linguistic barrier there are no rules worded in legalese in the books and it seems that some people are hunting for then using very questionable rationale to explain how come

wings, jump infantry etc

trollface.jpg

@ InquisitorFabius

Well, the problem with your line of statements is that there is no restriction about a MC not being able to deep strike. n fact, we have as an example the mawloc, a MC that in fact can deep strike. there is nothing about being a MC that is relevant to the question of being able to deep strike.

So if a MC can deep strike it appeared that it was the jump infantry part that made it not able to deep strike.


So we once again come back to a winged creature being able to deep strike, since all thats reuqired is that they move as jump infantry moves.


Sliggoth

InquisitorFabius wrote:
Is a Hive Tyrant Jump Infantry? No, it is a MC.

Can a MC DS? No.

A Hive Tyrant can not Deep Strike as its Unit Type is MC.

Daemon Princes with wings can Deep Strike. So there goes that theory. Interestingly, the reason that they had to specify that units with wings could DS in the Chaos Codex is because all units that move like Jump Infantry didn't automatically get the ability to DS in 4th Edition.

Gwar! wrote:

Lost Ripper wrote:Jump pack = DS,
Thus HT w Wing = JP = DS,

Try reading for once. Wings are NOT a Jump Pack. Jump Packs make the model Jump Infantry.

Wings allow the model to MOVE as if Jump Infantry.

They are NOT Jump Infantry, so they Cannot Deep Strike. This is the Rules as Written. If you don't like it, tough. House rule it if you want, but you will be breaking the rules.

Period.

Don't even bring up RAW in this. You've selectively applying the Jump Infantry movement rules based on nothing but your own whims.

Let me break it down, again, and maybe you'll directly answer a question for once.

Wings = "Move as Jump Infantry"

The movement section on the Jump Infantry page, when read in it's entirety, states that units with this ability may Deep Strike.

So the question is this: Why are you selectively applying the movement text on page 52 in the BRB? By your reasoning I don't have to treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain because it says "a moving jump infantry model" has to do so, right? Oh, and Jump Infantry models can't end their move on top of other models! Gee whiz, I guess a winged Hive Tyrant can, since it's not jump infantry! Weak sauce, if you follow your arguments to their logical conclusion.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Gauntlets of Ultramar thing is poppycock by they way. Are the Raven's Talons also one weapon?

Moving as and being are two totally separate things. That is the difference. Models that act like JI are not true JI, thus can not DS.

To use your own formula:

Is a Hive Tyrant Jump Infantry? No, it is a MC.

Can a MC DS? No.

A Hive Tyrant can not Deep Strike as its Unit Type is MC.

By this argument Wings are entirely useless, Jump Infantry can move 12".

Is a Hive Tyrant Jump Infantry? No, it is a MC.

Can a MC move 12"? No.

Why are you accepting that they benefit from one type of movement (moving 12") but not another (arriving by DS)? Why to difference the rules state that Jump infantry can move 12" just as they state Jump Infantry can move by arriving via Deep strike?

Guys, it's pretty simple.

Tyrant is a Monstrous Creature. Monstrous Creatures cannot deep strike.

Jump Infantry may Deepstrike.

Wings allow the Tyrant to move as if it was Jump Infantry.

Ergo, Wings do not make the Tyrant change it's unit type, thus he cannot deepstrike.

Unless you believe that deep striking is part of the movement allowance granted to jump infantry, then the Flyrant can indeed deep strike.

Monstrous Creatures cannot deep strike.

Where are you getting this rule from?

Jump Infantry may Deepstrike.

What you mean by this is: one move Jump Infantry can make is to arrive by Deepstrike.

Wings allow the Tyrant to move as if it was Jump Infantry.

Ergo they can Deepstrike.

Ergo, Wings do not make the Tyrant change it's unit type, thus he cannot deepstrike.

So can they move 12"? How is your argument preventing them from making a DS move different to one preventing them from moving 12"?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyrant is a Monstrous Creature. Monstrous Creatures cannot deep strike.

People who aren't reading the thread continue bring this up.

It's absolutely false, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Monster Rain wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyrant is a Monstrous Creature. Monstrous Creatures cannot deep strike.

People who aren't reading the thread continue bring this up.

It's absolutely false, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Would you mind then providing us the quote from the rulebook which says "MC Can Deep Strike" then please?

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Unless you believe that deep striking is part of the movement allowance granted to jump infantry, then the Flyrant can indeed deep strike.

Deep striking is categorically NOT movement. Deep Striking is in fact an alternate means of Deployment.

please show where it states that mcs cannot ds countering the ds ability granted by jump infantry movement if you cannot show where it states mc units may not ds then the wings obviously breaks no rules stating that they cannot.

Lost Ripper wrote:well as to hive tyrant statement under tyrant guard it clearly states that the swarmlord is a tyrant , and for the jump pack statement since a mc w wings gets " moves in the same way as jump infantry " if that doesnt mean that you follow the rules for jp movement -which includes rules for ds on page 95 - then i must assume there is a linguistic barrier there are no rules worded in legalese in the books and it seems that some people are hunting for then using very questionable rationale to explain how come

there's no point in arguing. the last 3 pages have been the same argument repeated almost verbatim. you can't convince someone who believes that you can't use something listed under "movement" despite "moving" using those rules because of a restriction that they (not GW) put on it. the same people probably argued that Nork wasn't an ogryn (despite listing it in the fluff, the model looking/being based exactly as an ogryn, and previous editions of the same character being an ogryn) and the same group who said although wolfguard "count as" troops with logan grimnar you can't take 6 of them. GW per their faq (here, i'll call it house rules to save anyone the trouble) has determined that "counts as" is the same thing as "is". so, for the purposes of moving (as listed under... wait for it... "movement") only, a hive tyrant with wings IS jump infantry.

Gwar! wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyrant is a Monstrous Creature. Monstrous Creatures cannot deep strike.

People who aren't reading the thread continue bring this up.

It's absolutely false, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

Would you mind then providing us the quote from the rulebook which says "MC Can Deep Strike" then please?

I guess the bit about directly answering a question is out.

With the proper upgrades, a MC can deep strike. What is incorrect is the statement "MCs can't deeps strike." Under certain circumstances they can, such as when given the ability to move as jump infantry as per the RAW on page 52 of the BRB.

And scene.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Unless you believe that deep striking is part of the movement allowance granted to jump infantry, then the Flyrant can indeed deep strike.

Deep striking is categorically NOT movement. Deep Striking is in fact an alternate means of Deployment.

That's interesting. Why is it then listed under the movement heading?

Oh dear. I was warned about YMDC.

Here goes!

Pp84, Tyranid Codex.

Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhamme 40,000 rulebook.

Pp52, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Jump Infantry can use ther jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement Phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish. When using Jump Packs, they can move over all other models and all terrain freely. However, if a moving jump infantry model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test. Jump infantry models may not end their move on top of other models or impassable terrain, except that they can end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actully possibly to place the models on top of it. If they do that, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain. All jump infantry units may enter the battle by deep strike as explained on Pp95.

So, what is the important part? At no point does the Tyrant actually become Jump Infantry, he merely gains their movement rules.

As I said above, Deep Striking is *not* movement, it is deployment. Ergo, the Tyrant cannot Deep Strike with his Wings. And since he doesn't have access to a Mycetic Spore, may only Deep Strike in games of Planetstrike when attacking.

Easy when you read your rule book.

Actually, what you're doing is reading the book and not following the rules on the page.

I can see you're all pointedly avoided what I said a few posts back.

"as described in the 40k rulebook" would mean that they would follow the rules for Jump Infantry under movement on page 52. It says that Jump Infantry can DS. I don't understand what's so hard about this.

Except I am, to the letter. Deep Striking is an alternate form of Deployment.

Ergo, it is not Movement, as otherwise no Heavy Weapon could fire on the first turn of the game, as Deployment would mean it had moved. And indeed, not until the 2nd turn would anything be able to move at all, instead having used it's first turn movement to deploy.

Please stop clutching at straws. The wording is nice and clear.

As for me pointedly avoiding, I didn't. I missed it. Large difference. What I said about Monstrous Creatures being unable to Deepstrike was poorly written. What I should have said is that Wings do not change a Tyrant's unit type to Jump Infantry, and the rules for Monstrous Creatures do not include Deep Striking. Though this in itself doesn't prevent them actually deep striking through other means. Sadly, Wings isn't one of them.