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I wouldn't care if my opponent wants to DS a Flyrant. I don't see a reason for it not to happen except for the BRB specifically saying jump infantry units deepstrike and not units that move like jump infantry...which I think is only models with wings...

At a tournament, then this is going to be one of the first questions I ask the TO.

Now I'm going to go put wings on my Chaos Lord to come flying out of a Rhino just for fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kurgash wrote:The real question is would you have the brass balls to actually DS a Tyrant....

I played a Nids player who DS a Tyrant and a Trygon while outflanking with 3 units of Genestealers and a Tervigon. That list could really box in a lot of lists...but not my mobile Necrons

GW makes no precedent, changing things on a whim per codex. What is true for one codex is not true for another.

QFT. I guess my point more specifically is that there is no explicit change. So defaulting to the previous standard is logical

Again, the previous standard is now irrelevant. New codex means the old one never existed.

Volkov wrote:

GW makes no precedent, changing things on a whim per codex. What is true for one codex is not true for another.

QFT. I guess my point more specifically is that there is no explicit change. So defaulting to the previous standard is logical

Apart from the explicit change from "are Jump Infantry in all respects" to "move as Jump Infantry"?

That is a major difference.

Much as it pains me, I'm going to have to agree with Gwar.
Anyway, we know Deep strike isn't movement.
If it was, Skyleaping "Rubber Hawks" wouldn't work.
And we know it does.

I think that we are getting lost in knitpicking because of sloppy writing. The wording is ambiguous at best, since the ability to deep strike is clearly in the section about movement, and also in the same sentence it says that *all* JI units can deep strike, alluding to a wide application of the rule.

The wording is sloppy for sure, but if we are using the same standard then it would seem the Tyrant Guard do not protect the Hive Tyrant from shooting either, even though it clearly says in the rules that they are "living shields whose purpose is to protect the Hive Tyrants from harm". Because it says that the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard as if it were an independent character. But according to the rulebook, "Independent Characters that are Monstrous Creatures can always be picked out as separate targets, unless they've joined a unit of monstrous creatures...". Or you can argue that you cannot use both scything talons and boneswords because they are both listed under "Close Combat Weapons" and are therefore special close combat weapons (since claws and teeth are the only weapons that have the "normal" designation the others must have the "special" designation), and therefore you have to choose which one to use.

As far as I see it all these issues are clearly intended one way. And the rules as written are all ambiguous at best (the clearest one seems to be the Tyrant Guard actually).

Before the FAQ's are out, we have to work out an agreement between players, and for me when a situation is clearly intended one way, and worded badly or ambiguously it is obvious what you should do. I cannot imagine this being an issue in a friendly game, and in a tournament, I would rely on the common sense of the judges and sportsmanship of my opponent (any opponent arguing the ambiguous angle of clearly intended rules will definitely get a zero sportsmanship from me).

saryrn wrote:Games work shop has produce another codex full of mistakes and sloppy rules

Couldn't agree more ... the problem is that, as a game, both players have agreed to abide by the rules no matter how stupid ... if both players wish to change how a rule works that is fine and covered as a house rule.

In this case RAW is clear only units of the type jump infantry may deep-strike

saryrn wrote:I think that we are getting lost in knitpicking because of sloppy writing. The wording is ambiguous at best, since the ability to deep strike is clearly in the section about movement, and also in the same sentence it says that *all* JI units can deep strike, alluding to a wide application of the rule.

The wording is sloppy for sure, but if we are using the same standard then it would seem the Tyrant Guard do not protect the Hive Tyrant from shooting either, even though it clearly says in the rules that they are "living shields whose purpose is to protect the Hive Tyrants from harm". Because it says that the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard as if it were an independent character. But according to the rulebook, "Independent Characters that are Monstrous Creatures can always be picked out as separate targets, unless they've joined a unit of monstrous creatures...". Or you can argue that you cannot use both scything talons and boneswords because they are both listed under "Close Combat Weapons" and are therefore special close combat weapons (since claws and teeth are the only weapons that have the "normal" designation the others must have the "special" designation), and therefore you have to choose which one to use.

As far as I see it all these issues are clearly intended one way. And the rules as written are all ambiguous at best (the clearest one seems to be the Tyrant Guard actually).

Before the FAQ's are out, we have to work out an agreement between players, and for me when a situation is clearly intended one way, and worded badly or ambiguously it is obvious what you should do. I cannot imagine this being an issue in a friendly game, and in a tournament, I would rely on the common sense of the judges and sportsmanship of my opponent (any opponent arguing the ambiguous angle of clearly intended rules will definitely get a zero sportsmanship from me).

spot on! The rule can be read either way in this circumstance and many others. Just because some of the posters feel they are always right and smarter than every living thing on the planet doesn't mean jack, because no one cares what they think. The point is this rule and many others are very ambiguous. And rulings can differ from local scene to the next. Just make sure you got it down with your gaming group, and find out before hand if you travel, and most importantly don't blow a gasket and think the other person is cheating if they don't magically see it the same way you do.

saryrn wrote:I think that we are getting lost in knitpicking because of sloppy writing. The wording is ambiguous at best, since the ability to deep strike is clearly in the section about movement, and also in the same sentence it says that *all* JI units can deep strike, alluding to a wide application of the rule.

The wording is sloppy for sure, but if we are using the same standard then it would seem the Tyrant Guard do not protect the Hive Tyrant from shooting either, even though it clearly says in the rules that they are "living shields whose purpose is to protect the Hive Tyrants from harm". Because it says that the Hive Tyrant joins the Tyrant Guard as if it were an independent character. But according to the rulebook, "Independent Characters that are Monstrous Creatures can always be picked out as separate targets, unless they've joined a unit of monstrous creatures...". Or you can argue that you cannot use both scything talons and boneswords because they are both listed under "Close Combat Weapons" and are therefore special close combat weapons (since claws and teeth are the only weapons that have the "normal" designation the others must have the "special" designation), and therefore you have to choose which one to use.

As far as I see it all these issues are clearly intended one way. And the rules as written are all ambiguous at best (the clearest one seems to be the Tyrant Guard actually).

Before the FAQ's are out, we have to work out an agreement between players, and for me when a situation is clearly intended one way, and worded badly or ambiguously it is obvious what you should do. I cannot imagine this being an issue in a friendly game, and in a tournament, I would rely on the common sense of the judges and sportsmanship of my opponent (any opponent arguing the ambiguous angle of clearly intended rules will definitely get a zero sportsmanship from me).

You can't have it both ways. If winged MCs can deep strike, Tyrants can also be picked out of their Tyrant Guard.

By the way, I know a TO who would throw you out of a tournament for giving someone a zero in sportsmanship.

By the way, I know a TO who would throw you out of a tournament for giving someone a zero in sportsmanship.

Then you know a TO who has no business organizing tournaments. Though perhaps not in this particular case, there are certainly times when a zero is warranted.

Having finally been able to get the tyranid codex I thought it might be interesting to work through exactly how this is worded.


"Models equipped with wings move in the same way as jump infantry,"

Seems fairly straightforward; in whatever manner jump infantry can move winged models can also move.

The entry on jump infantry tells us the movement speed and characteristics, and it also refers us to pg 95 when it mentions deep striking since we are told that jump infantry may enter the battle this way. Yes, this is listed under the movement section of jump infantry but it by no means lets us define deep strike as movement from this section.



Now on to pg 95....for a winged model to be able top deep strike we need to be told that deep striking is somehow a move. Move in the same way as jump infantry; not count as having moved but actually move.

"in the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further...."

Hmm, serious problem here; it appears that the units have indeed moved.

"they are too disrupted by their deep strike move."

Uhoh, its even called a move.


So by simple RAW we have it, deep strike is indeed at least in some manner a move. And this is all that the tyranid rule requires, if jump infantry have a an ability that in some way is a move then winged models also have that ability.



Deep strike is many things but its clear that one of these things is a move. Its really not at all ambiguous, its just another case of GW not using clear simple writing.


Sliggoth

In neither case can a Tyrant be picked out, as they join *as* an IC, at no point are tehy actually an IC - so the rule about ICs joining a unit never applies, and they are therefore just a normal member of the unit. Who cannot be picked out.

I agree with Sliggoth!

Thank you for being so much more articulate than I am...

Going to say I would play it as yes, they can deep strike.

Gwar! wrote:-Sigh-

Models MOVE as if Jump Infantry.

They do NOT Follow all the rules found in the Movement section of Jump Infantry.

They only MOVE AS IF JUMP INFANTRY. As in, when you move them, they move as if Jump Infantry, but are NOT Jump Infantry and CANNOT deep strike as Jump Infantry.

DEEP STRIKING IS NOT MOVEMENT.

Get it now?

models MOVE as if Jump Infatnry.

How do jump infantry MOVE? well, they follow the rules under MOVEMENT in the jump infantry unit type on page 52.

Do the rules under MOVEMENT on the page labelled JUMP INFANTRY include a mention of DEEP STRIKE?

yes. IF IT'S LISTED UNDER MOVEMENT, MODELS THAT MOVE AS JUMP INFANTRY CAN DO IT. so, they can deepstrike.

get it now?

The biggest problem with not counting deep strike as a part of a models movement allowance is that it allows ICs without Deep Strike to DS if they are attached to a unit that can.

Deep Strike is not a USR that is lost if an IC without it joins. If you do not say deep striking is movement, then nothing in the Deep Strike or IC rules prevent the unit from Deep Striking with a footslogging IC.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The biggest problem with not counting deep strike as a part of a models movement allowance is that it allows ICs without Deep Strike to DS if they are attached to a unit that can.

Deep Strike is not a USR that is lost if an IC without it joins. If you do not say deep striking is movement, then nothing in the Deep Strike or IC rules prevent the unit from Deep Striking with a footslogging IC.

No, what prevents a footslogging IC from joining a deep strike unit is that the IC isn't equipped with something that allows them to enter play in that manner.

You're stretching things a bit.

The deep strike rules only require a unit with the deep strike rule. As deep strike isn't lost when a non-deep striker joins, they can still enter via DS.

That is, unless Deep Strike is a part of movement, and the IC rules keep the unit from deep striking.

Except the unit does not have deepstrike - *part* of the unit has deepstrike.

So you still can't do it.

The 'unit' has an ability.
If they are joined by another model, and that model joining does not cause the unit to lose that ability, then after that model has joined them the 'unit' still has that ability.

Which is why Wings do not allow Deep Strike, otherwise a winged Hive Tyrant can Deep Strike with Tyrant Guard

insaniak wrote:The 'unit' has an ability.
If they are joined by another model, and that model joining does not cause the unit to lose that ability, then after that model has joined them the 'unit' still has that ability.

No it doesnt, as not all of the unit has the ability. It does not have to lose it for the unit to be unable to use it as a whole, as you ask the question "does the unit have DS?" and you *cannot* answer "yes" to that

You evil tyranid players really need to read the rules and understand the language.

Page 52 under Jump Infantry -
The last line under movement is "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." This does not mean that units that move like jump infantry get the 'deep strike' ability. It means that JUMP INFANTRY get it... if the unit is not and I repeat not listed as JUMP INFANTRY, they don't get to look at page 95.

I can crawl like a cat as much as I want, but I will never be a cat.

Until clarified the only fair way to call this is that Monstrous Creatures with wings can Deep Strike.

Gwar! and those who believe him are confusing 'move' with 'movement phase'. Last time I checked something that is deep striking is moving, as in its applying motion, we can only go by the wording and the wording implies any change in location is taken as per Jump infantry.

Had the rules said 'counts as jump infantry in the movement phase' then no Deep Strike, but it says moves as which is something completely different.

Ok, so the way you see it is the only fair way? Because as I see it a model with wings, gets the movement options for JI, not the deployment options.

Marcus Iago Geruasius wrote:You evil tyranid players really need to read the rules and understand the language.

Page 52 under Jump Infantry -
The last line under movement is "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." This does not mean that units that move like jump infantry get the 'deep strike' ability. It means that JUMP INFANTRY get it... if the unit is not and I repeat not listed as JUMP INFANTRY, they don't get to look at page 95.

I can crawl like a cat as much as I want, but I will never be a cat.

Well said - I agree with the gentleman above...

Slinky wrote:

Marcus Iago Geruasius wrote:You evil tyranid players really need to read the rules and understand the language.

Page 52 under Jump Infantry -
The last line under movement is "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." This does not mean that units that move like jump infantry get the 'deep strike' ability. It means that JUMP INFANTRY get it... if the unit is not and I repeat not listed as JUMP INFANTRY, they don't get to look at page 95.

I can crawl like a cat as much as I want, but I will never be a cat.

Well said - I agree with the gentleman above...

when i first read the movement section for jump infantry i thought that this was the perfect anti DS point as well however after rereading the jump troop movement section again they say "jump infantry" throughout the entire section. you cant exclude the DS part of the section and simply keep the rest in.

BTW, im neutral here...

Orlanth wrote:Until clarified the only fair way to call this is that Monstrous Creatures with wings can Deep Strike.

Gwar! and those who believe him are confusing 'move' with 'movement phase'. Last time I checked something that is deep striking is moving, as in its applying motion, we can only go by the wording and the wording implies any change in location is taken as per Jump infantry.

Had the rules said 'counts as jump infantry in the movement phase' then no Deep Strike, but it says moves as which is something completely different.

You did just read Marcus Iago Geruasius's post that pretty much shows your post is 100% twaddle yes?

If you are going to claim that "Move as" jump infantry means "Follow all the Rules in the movement section for jump infantry", then you claim that they CANNOT Deep Strike, as the rules for Jump Infantry Deep Striking say "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95."

So, taking the "It follows all the rules for Movement under Jump Infantrys Unit Rules", a Hive Tyrant with Wings is NOT Jump Infantry, it only moves as Jump Infantry. Moving as Jump Infantry gives it the rule "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." Now, check, is the Hive Tyrant Jump Infantry? No, it isn't. Thus, even though it has this rule, because it can move like Jump Infantry, it cannot deep strike, because the rule EXPLICITLY states that you have to actually be Jump Infantry to benefit from the Deep Strike portion of the rules.

Damn, it's almost as if GW read the rulebook before writing a codex (almost, we all know that is unpossible).

Since alot of people seem to think that they can deepstrike while not being jump infantry, i have a new question ...

Do you keep 'move throught cover' since all MC have it or do you lose it becuase you no longer move like a MC and its part of the MC movement rules?

Tri wrote:Since alot of people seem to think that they can deepstrike while not being jump infantry, i have a new question ...

Do you keep 'move throught cover' since all MC have it or do you lose it becuase you no longer move like a MC and its part of the MC movement rules?

I would guess that they would turn about and argue that they do keep it, even though their argument 3 seconds ago (because five is right out!) would mean that the MC does lose it.

But hey, that's just my opinion.