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no. no ds for you. I fully agree with GWAR! it is just moves as, not counts as.

There is a problem tho...its not counts as, its moves as. So any manner in which jump infantry move, models with wings also can move.


Is deep strike in any shape or form a move?


Yes it is, according to the deep strike rules.


So if jump infantry move via deep strike then so can winged models.






Nothing much else to it, there is no counts as, should be treated as, or any other such as...they just move in the same way as jump infantry. They in no way have to BE jump infantry.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:There is a problem tho...its not counts as, its moves as. So any manner in which jump infantry move, models with wings also can move.

Is deep strike in any shape or form a move?

Yes it is, according to the deep strike rules.

So if jump infantry move via deep strike then so can winged models.

Nothing much else to it, there is no counts as, should be treated as, or any other such as...they just move in the same way as jump infantry. They in no way have to BE jump infantry.

Your argument fails on three counts.

1) Deep Striking is NOT movement. The models count as moving after a deep strike, but that is the extent of it, they COUNT AS moving, which, by definition, means they didn't actually move.
2) Again, if a Tyrant with wings must Follow all the movement rules for Jump Infantry, it must follow the rule that says "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." Note how the rule does NOT say "All units that move as jump infantry may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95.", but rather explicitly "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95." A Tyrant with Wings is not Jump Infantry, so it cannot Deep Strike.
3) By your logic, a Hive Tyrant with Wings loses MTC

Gwar! wrote: ...even though their argument 3 seconds ago (because five is right out!) ...

Gwar: A five minute argument, the full half hour. He could even be arguing in his spare time.

Read my earlier post...the deep strike rule does indeed say that its a move.

Winged models do NOT follow the rules for jump infantry. They however DO move as jump infantry moves.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Winged models do NOT follow the rules for jump infantry. They however DO move as jump infantry moves.

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Now, lets actually read what the rules for Jump Infantry moving say.

"All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95."

Notice the distinct lack of "Move as" in that sentence? Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because only actual Jump Infantry may deep strike?

So, by following ALL the rules for Movement, a model that "moves as" Jump Infanty has a rule which states "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95". Now, check, is the Tyrant Jump Infantry. Hmm? No? Aww, looks like he can't Deep Strike then! Thus you claim that they cannot Deep Strike. Glad to see we are in agreement here.

Yes, but what you are failing to see is that winged models move in the same way as jump infantry.

Looking at the jump infantry rules we see that they can do this thing called deep strike.


Is deep strike a way in which jump infantry move? We need to go look at pg 95 to see if deep strike in some way might fit the rules as a move.

Well lets see:


"In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further.."

This is certainly telling us that they have moved somehow in the turn, and the only thing that they have done is deepstrike. Therefore it certainly looks like deep strike is being called some form of a move.

Then later on pg 95 we get:

"....they are too disrupted by their deep strike move."

That line is open and shut, deep strike is a move. Jump infantry do indeed move when they deepstrike. And, winged models move in the same way as jump infantry.


All thats needed is for deep strike to be in some way (any way at all) a move. Once we have that, and we already know that jump infantry can deep strike....we know that winged models can deep strike as well.


Sliggoth

DS is clearly a form of deployment, it even states so under the Reserves section. This is repeated under the DS section also.

Deep strike being a form of deployment is interesting, but completely irrelevant. We dont care if its a form of deployment or not, the only concern we have when looking at the rule in question is whether or not deep strike is in any way a move. There is no limitation on deep strike ONLY being deployment or ONLY being a move. It could quite possibly be both.

Dont try and read too many limitations into this rule, as some people in this thread have done.



"Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry..."


The winged models arent jump infantry, they dont move as if they were jump infantry, they dont pretend in any way to be jump infantry. They simply move in the same way as jump infantry.


So any way in which Jump Infantry move, winged models also can move. Any way at all, as long as its a move. Jump Infantry can deep strike. So the only thing we are interested in about deep strike is if it is in some way (any way at all) a move.


And the deep strike rules tell us that it is indeed a move.


Its nice to know that deep strike may also be a form of deployment, but the winged model rules dont really care about that at all.


Sliggoth

Gwar! wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:Winged models do NOT follow the rules for jump infantry. They however DO move as jump infantry moves.

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Now, lets actually read what the rules for Jump Infantry moving say.

"All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95."

Notice the distinct lack of "Move as" in that sentence? Perhaps, just perhaps, this is because only actual Jump Infantry may deep strike?

So, by following ALL the rules for Movement, a model that "moves as" Jump Infanty has a rule which states "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95". Now, check, is the Tyrant Jump Infantry. Hmm? No? Aww, looks like he can't Deep Strike then! Thus you claim that they cannot Deep Strike. Glad to see we are in agreement here.

Alright, Just so I am clear,

Hive tyrants with wings "Move as Jump Infantry"
You Stated "Lets read the rules for Jump Infantry Moving"
Now the Tyrant in terms of Movement Is Jump Infantry, Because he is considered Jump Infantry for movement purposes, as is clearly stated in the book,

So anything listed in the rules under movement that pertains to jump infantry counts for them for they are jump infantry for movement purposes

Not targetting purposes, H2H purposes, cover purposes, ect. Movement purposes only, Meaning they do not get a extra die for moving through cover, but instead take the risk of taking a wound for landing in terrain.


Now you stated that "Under Moving Jump Infantry (Flyrants are counting as jump infantry during this stage)"

"All jump infantry units may enter the battle by ‘deep strike’, as explained on page 95."
Well this clearly states the rules pertaining to the movement of Jump infantry,
Which Clearly denotes the fact that anything which lists that it follows the movement rules for jump infantry, pertains to them,

This is very clear, a model which moves like Jump Infantry can DS,

Though it reminds me of the arguments which go Q: "Are the wings of the valkyrie part of the Hull?" A: "No"
But people go on and on about it,

My question is:

Why are you selectively applying what it says under the "movement" heading on page 52 of the BRB?

The Tyranid Codex says that models with Wings "move" as "Jump Infantry." Under "movement" on the "Jump Infantry" page in the BRB it says that "all jump infantry units" can Deep Strike.

Without a bunch of beardy over-thinking, it would seem that the rules would indicate that a HT with Wings can Deep Strike.

Period.

Are you just arguing for something to do? Let me know and I'll stop trying to convince you of what is written clearly in the Rule Book.

Yeah does seem a bit funny to me,


But it is clear,
Outside of debate,
Jump pack = DS,
Thus HT w Wing = JP = DS,

Pretty clear,


Though side note,
GWAR Tyranid faq is pretty solid,
just 3 things
1 the wings, pretty clear they can DS RAW,
and the other 2,
Tyr.34.02 No, unless you have a swarmlord, as its bonus is from a different rule, thus allowing 2+ reserves on turn 2,

Tyr.35.03
Yes,
The swarmlord is a hive tyrant, as stated on pg 86 "You may include one brood of tyrant guard for each hive tyant in your army (including the swarmlord)..."
thus the swarmlord is a hivetyrant.

If there was a rule "Models with this rule can move as cavalry" would it be reasonable to say that a unit with that rule had fleet and could move 12" during the assault phase? Is a model which moves as a jetbike prohibited from running? The answer is 'Yes' even though neither of those rules are listed under Movement for those unit types.

If they have movement rules outside of the Movement header, how can anyone reasonably assume that all of the rules in the Movement section are actually *movement*?

I have a few beefs with the Space Marine section of that FAQ as well.

For example, there is no reason at all why the Gauntlets of Ultramar shouldn't give an extra attack for having two special close combat weapons.

"Matched pair of Powerfists" really sounds like "two powerfists" which would seem to me to confer another attack according to what the BRB says.

I only bring it up here to indicate that maybe people shouldn't trust everything they read on the internet on these subjects. Just reading the rule book and talking things out with your local gaming group or your friends will resolve 99% of rules disputes.

solkan wrote:If there was a rule "Models with this rule can move as cavalry" would it be reasonable to say that a unit with that rule had fleet and could move 12" during the assault phase? Is a model which moves as a jetbike prohibited from running? The answer is 'Yes' even though neither of those rules are listed under Movement for those unit types.

If they have movement rules outside of the Movement header, how can anyone reasonably assume that all of the rules in the Movement section are actually *movement*?

Moving as cavalry would never even happen, since they move like infantry according to their movement description. I don't see how it's relevant anyway. If something "moves as" something else then you at least follow the rules under the appropriate movement heading. Everything else is utterly beside the point in this context.

"All of the rules in the Movement section" are the bare minimum of what is allowable.

Lost Ripper wrote:Jump pack = DS,
Thus HT w Wing = JP = DS,

Try reading for once. Wings are NOT a Jump Pack. Jump Packs make the model Jump Infantry.

Wings allow the model to MOVE as if Jump Infantry.

They are NOT Jump Infantry, so they Cannot Deep Strike. This is the Rules as Written. If you don't like it, tough. House rule it if you want, but you will be breaking the rules.

Period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:For example, there is no reason at all why the Gauntlets of Ultramar shouldn't give an extra attack for having two special close combat weapons.

There are many, many reasons actually. Just because you don't like it doesn't change what the rules say.

edit: changed my mind, proceed as you were

although I do think the argument should really focus on the fact Deep Strike isn't actually movement, because the only reason what I said is wrong, is the specifics of the phrase "may move as jump infantry". I think it is the fact that Deep Strike isn't a "movement phase action" that jump infantry can normally make which fails to encompass it within the "counts as" more so than the strict wording of "Jump Infantry may" within the Jump Infantry movement rules.

To answer your comments about my FAQ:

Lost Ripper wrote:
1 the wings, pretty clear they can DS RAW,

That's wrong, they cannot Deep Strike. Please read the multiple times I have had to explain it as to why.
and the other 2,

Tyr.34.02 No, unless you have a Swarmlord, as its bonus is from a different rule, thus allowing 2+ reserves on turn 2,

Errm... The Sarmlord has a Different rule all together. 34.02 deals with two Hive Tyrants.

Tyr.35.03
Yes,
The swarmlord is a hive tyrant, as stated on pg 86 "You may include one brood of tyrant guard for each hive tyant in your army (including the swarmlord)..."
thus the swarmlord is a hivetyrant.

Sorry, wrong. Firstly, that's the Tyrant Guard Entry. Secondly, a unit called "The Swarmlord" is no more a Hive Tyrant than a Telion is a Chapter Master. Thirdly, nowhere in the Swarmlords rules does it say it is a Hive Tyrant. Thus, it is not a Hive Tyrant. Again, you don't have to like it, but that is what the rules say.

@Drunkspleen: So, what is your justification for allowing Tyrant Guard to Deep Strike in with a Winged Tyrant, as that is what your "interpretation" allows.

To continue the Calgar discussion, it looks like Gwar is agreeing with me that he, in power armour, can deep strike when attached to a unit of Assault Marines.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:To continue the Calgar discussion, it looks like Gwar is agreeing with me that he, in power armour, can deep strike when attached to a unit of Assault Marines.

I'm not?

Then what rule forbids it? The unit has the deep strike rule, and unless there is a rule that would disallow it, they can deep strike.

Again, Deep Strike is not a USR lost if an IC joins. Nothing in the Deep Strike or IC rules forbids it. There is a rule saying the unit's movement is constrained by the IC, but Deep Striking is apparently not movement.

Gwar! wrote:@Drunkspleen: So, what is your justification for allowing Tyrant Guard to Deep Strike in with a Winged Tyrant, as that is what your "interpretation" allows.

I assume this is regarding my since edited comment dealing with the similarity of "Jump Infantry may move up to 12 inches" and "Jump Infantry may deep strike"

I was mainly trying to point out that the Inclusion of the term Jump Infantry in the phrase is not enough reason on it's own for a non Jump Infantry model using Jump Infantry rules to be allowed to use it, for example if the wings biomorph said it allows a model to "follow all rules of Jump Infantry, however the models unit type remains unchanged" I would consider that sufficient to let them Deep Strike.

In this instance, I agree that the model is not allowed to deep strike, however I feel it is because Deep Strike is a form of deployment, not a form of movement.

Actually, Assault Squads do NOT have Deep Strike as a unit Special Rule. They have it by virtue of being jump Infantry. Each individual model has the rule permitting the model to deep strike.

Thus, if you attach Calgar in PA, not everyone has the Rule, thus you cannot legally deploy all the models, thus the unit cannot deep strike.

The language is very clear here.

In this 'wings' case the operative phrase of 'as if' or 'like' something is a simile to compare two separate things and explain the points that are similar. One, however, does not equal the other.

Now take for instance the case of the space marine chaplain. The chaplain is an IC and his unit type is 'Infantry' I can equip him per the entry in the army list with a jump pack. Now he is infantry with a jump back... quandary - can he deep strike? yes and here is why -

Pg 100 of C:SM says under Jump Packs "Models quipped with jump packs are jump infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook" The key is ...ARE JUMP INFANTRY... not 'as if' they' were or 'move like'

You may now graduate to 6th grade English, having learned the difference between similes and metaphors

Gwar! wrote:Actually, Assault Squads do NOT have Deep Strike as a unit Special Rule. They have it by virtue of being jump Infantry. Each individual model has the rule permitting the model to deep strike.

Thus, if you attach Calgar in PA, not everyone has the Rule, thus you cannot legally deploy all the models, thus the unit cannot deep strike.

The unit's type is Jump Infanty, and I'd say that grants them the Deep Strike rule. Regardless, change it to Eldrad and a unit of Warp Spiders, or Ghazgull and a unit of Stormboyz and my point stands.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Actually, Assault Squads do NOT have Deep Strike as a unit Special Rule. They have it by virtue of being jump Infantry. Each individual model has the rule permitting the model to deep strike.

Thus, if you attach Calgar in PA, not everyone has the Rule, thus you cannot legally deploy all the models, thus the unit cannot deep strike.

The unit's type is Jump Infanty, and I'd say that grants them the Deep Strike rule. Regardless, change it to Eldrad and a unit of Warp Spiders, or Ghazgull and a unit of Stormboyz and my point stands.

I'm with Gwar on this one, You can't declare a unit to be Deep Striking unless all members of that unit have the Deep Strike special rule, regardless of how they may have obtained it.

Where in the Deep Strike rules does it say that?

Where does it say a model with out the ability may perform it? I can not find that either.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Where in the Deep Strike rules does it say that?

Where in the Deep Strike rules does it say you have to have the Deep Strike special rule to deploy that way?

It says some units have special rules allowing them to deep strike.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Where does it say a model with out the ability may perform it? I can not find that either.

It doesn't need to. A unit of IG Stormtroopers has the Deep Strike special rule, which is not lost when an IC without it joins, as it is not a USR marked with an asterisk. It's a similar situation as the one that technically allows a Warboss to utilize Snikrot's Ambush special rule.

If you do not think deep striking is part of a unit's movement, then Yarrick would be allowed to deep strike if he's attached to a unit of Storm Troppers. If the deep strike option is part of a unit's movement allowance, then he could not, and Tyranids with wings can deep strike.

This seems to be stirring quite strong emotions in a lot of people. Again I think we can take 2 approaches here and I have a few points regarding each.

1. Rules as Intended. Seems to me that there has been very little discussion about whether it was intended for the Hive Tyrant to deep strike. From my point of view, he was clearly allowed to Deep Strike in the old codex, and there are other monsters in the game that deep strike now. In addition it makes sense that he can fly on the battlefield with wings. I believe if we can at least agree that the rules are sloppy, and that it was intended for him to deep strike, then we can move on, until it is FAQ'ed, which should be soon.

2. Rules as Written. For some of us, common sense is not enough. We want to take a toy soldier game to the next level. It seems to me that the crux of the argument here is this: People who do not believe he deep strikes say "Being Jump Infantry allows you to deep strike. Since you are not Jump Infantry you cannot deep strike." The people who do want him to deep strike say, "Being jump infantry is a sufficient but not necessary condition for deep striking. Since deep striking is categorised broadly as movement by virtue of being in the movement paragraph, and by being referred to as movement in the deep striking rule, if you move like Jump Infantry you can deep strike".

I tend to agree with the second interpretation. The people who narrowly focus on the "being jump infantry" are perhaps using forced logic. Seems to me they are saying you are jump infantry = deep strike. You are not jump infantry you cannot deep strike. Isn t that like saying you are a banana = you are yellow. If you are not a banana you are not yellow. Surely there are other things that are yellow and not bananas. Using that argument does not logically prove you cannot deep strike. However the other interpretation does not prove it either though there is strong evidence to believe it. If either side had a logic proof argument we would not be on page 4 of this post.

If the rules are ambiguous and cannot be conclusively established one way or another, why cant we just agree that it can based on the previous codex and the fluff and description?