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Frazzled wrote:

Saldiven wrote:It's a matter of being factually inaccurate with your customers.

So what? If you don't like it don't ing buy from them? gak you people need to put your big girl panties on and man up a little.

Ahem... Rule #1? err...

/goes to put on big girl panties

RiTides wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Saldiven wrote:It's a matter of being factually inaccurate with your customers.

So what? If you don't like it don't ing buy from them? gak you people need to put your big girl panties on and man up a little.

Ahem... Rule #1? err...

/goes to put on big girl panties

Hey I'm not insulting other posters, i'm saying everyone needs to man up a little bit (meant to say "gak, you people need to..." in case that was misinterpreted).

On the VAT, I thing there is legalities ivolved about charging a VAt when its not applicable. I know there were forms we could fill out for when we went to the Canadias to recoup the VAT. Uk'er international travel help would be appreciated here.

How is saying "gak, you people need to put your big girl panties on and man up a little" NOT insulting to other posters?

It certainly seems like a contravention of Rule #1 to me, but since you get the [MOD] stamp, I'm sure you can get away with it.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:How is saying "gak, you people need to put your big girl panties on and man up a little" NOT insulting to other posters?

It certainly seems like a contravention of Rule #1 to me, but since you get the [MOD] stamp, I'm sure you can get away with it.

The same way quit whining is not insulting.

nkelsch wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:============================================

Thanks for your e-mail.
Here at Forge World we endeavour to provide a quality service that ensures you receive our products in the most effective way. Our team regularly review the prices we charge for shipping, and these are to cover our costs not make a profit. As you may have noticed, we offer free Express shipping on large orders and currently free standard shipping on all orders over £150 – we anticipate this to be a long-term offer that will benefit many of our customers.
You can also visit us at events such as our forthcoming Open Day here in Nottingham on March 28th, at which you can come and pick up almost anything in our range. The Open Day will also allow you to meet our entire staff including our Studio of writers, artists and sculptors, as well as to play some fantastic games and view work-in-progress models, books and artwork. The Open Day is free to attend and is a great way to save on Shipping costs.
We hope to see you there! If you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate me to contact me.

=============================================

Um... is this a typo or a hidden deal? The website currently says £250.00 or more.

If they were serious about £150.00 or more that makes a huge difference to me personally. I recently placed an order for forgeworld and got hit with the 12% packing simply because I didn't feel like I wanted to save up for a 400$us order. £150 is about 250$us which I could honestly see myself saving up and placing an order that large in order to save the 12% in shipping for which I could get more product.

I think if they had a lower threshold people would place bigger orders as it is more obtainable. Instead of ordering a Big Trakk now and a Megadred 8 months from now I probably would have ordered it all together.

I don;t know if you are going to email this dude back, but ask how does one obtain the free shipping on £150.00 orders?

I would love to know the certain amount as well.
The way i see it , FW isnt ripping you off , and certainly isnt over charging.

Like they clearly stated , they give FREE shipping for large order , this is balanced back via charging extra for small orders.
Reinforcing bulk deals are always nice i think.

A USA customer here. Is VAT included in the price, or does forgeworld add it to the order when checking out?

I ask because at Prince August (An Irish minatures company) it is included in the items price, and there is a box that non-eu residents can check to have their orders reduced by 17.5%. It's rather nice as it pretty much negates shipping so you can estimate your costs based on the items cost.

If it was included in the price, I'd definitely be making sure it was removed before paying out for shipping.

Here's another question. For a US buyer, would
(Forgeworld direct + shipping) - VAT
be less or more expensive than
(Forgeworld at GW store) + local tax
?

I've been eyeing a few Leman russ turrets...

VAT is included, but FW doesn't take it out for international customers. It's exra profit for them.

LunaHound- they clearly stated that they don't profit from P&P- matey just proved that they do, so unless they donate it to a charity, that makes them liars. As somebody else wrote- GW just with a different hat. I was considering ordering few bits, but seeing that I will give it a miss.

wardancer wrote:LunaHound- they clearly stated that they don't profit from P&P- matey just proved that they do, so unless they donate it to a charity, that makes them liars. As somebody else wrote- GW just with a different hat. I was considering ordering few bits, but seeing that I will give it a miss.

If you count the loss from the free shippings , how do you gather that it totals to be a profit o_o?

There is no VAT on FW goods to the US. The price on the website is the price you pay - for UK/Euro sales FW it has VAT in it, for others it doesn't it is just a higher price in effect.

So, if the advertise a piece for GBP 115.00 (assuming rate is 15%:

US Sale = 115

UK Sales (GW) = 100
VAT (to Gov) = 15

If you get a sales invoice in the US it will not say VAT included. that is just the price you pay and represent additional profit. The funny thing is the cheeky bastards then charge extra for shipping. Hilarious, no?

If you buy the same thing and you are in the UK I am willing to bet you get a VAT invoice, that states VAT number of the company and the amount of VAT.

So, they don't charge VAT to US customers as that would be illegal if they kept the money. They just charge you the same price.

I have mentioned this about 2 or 3 times on dakka in the past. Reaction is split between "get over it they are making money and its you choice to pay" and "burn them at the stake". I tackled head of FW on this about 2 years ago - after his POS reply I mentioned that although I live in US I am actually British, an accountant with VAT experience.

Personally I think it is incredible dishonest.

Frazzled wrote:On the VAT, I thing there is legalities ivolved about charging a VAt when its not applicable. I know there were forms we could fill out for when we went to the Canadias to recoup the VAT. Uk'er international travel help would be appreciated here.

I believe that the VAT is included in the price of the item at Forgeworld. So as a US customer you pay VAT on the item, plus the 12% shipping (for small orders).

I can't answer for the UK, but when I travel in Argentina (annually), they also have VAT included in their prices. At the store, you have to ask for a VAT form that you then take to a counter at the airport (I think its after customs) that you turn in, with receipts for items purchased, and they send you a check in the mail for the VAT that you were charged (basically, you pay VAT, then you get refunded VAT a couple weeks later).

However, not all stores offer the VAT refund paperwork. Most of those that do are 'mall' stores that tend to be higher end.

I'm sure UK vat is different from Argentina VAT in its execution, but I think Forgeworld gets around it since you don't actually go into their store, they don't issue you customs VAT forms (as if you traveled to the UK), and you don't go through customs.

I'd be much more likely to order forgeworld without the VAT, just on principle.

Cruentus wrote:

Frazzled wrote:On the VAT, I thing there is legalities ivolved about charging a VAt when its not applicable. I know there were forms we could fill out for when we went to the Canadias to recoup the VAT. Uk'er international travel help would be appreciated here.

I believe that the VAT is included in the price of the item at Forgeworld. So as a US customer you pay VAT on the item, plus the 12% shipping (for small orders).

I can't answer for the UK, but when I travel in Argentina (annually), they also have VAT included in their prices. At the store, you have to ask for a VAT form that you then take to a counter at the airport (I think its after customs) that you turn in, with receipts for items purchased, and they send you a check in the mail for the VAT that you were charged (basically, you pay VAT, then you get refunded VAT a couple weeks later).

However, not all stores offer the VAT refund paperwork. Most of those that do are 'mall' stores that tend to be higher end.

I'm sure UK vat is different from Argentina VAT in its execution, but I think Forgeworld gets around it since you don't actually go into their store, they don't issue you customs VAT forms (as if you traveled to the UK), and you don't go through customs.

I'd be much more likely to order forgeworld without the VAT, just on principle.

Like I said they don't charge VAT to US customers. It is the same price to UK or US customers except a portion of the UK sale goes to the government.

The price to the US is GDP 115.00 and to UK the price is GBP 115 (VAT included). Huge difference legally.

TheSecretSquig wrote:You will not receive your order in a jiffy bag or similar, as many wargames companies use, but instead firmly packed in a sturdy box

Wait what? Every time Ive gotten a FW model it has come with all of its parts inside a multitude of zip lock plastic bags... with bubble wrab around the bags (which doesnt help protect them as far as I can see) and in a card board box... Lets add more to the lie shall we? I can totally understand what you are saying so I hope you get refunded or there is some change... I recently started ordering all my stuff at my local GW anyways so I never have to deal with the shipping anyhow >.<

LunaHound- do your maths- guy wrote that he weighted the item at the post office and it came out as 2.40- FW send it by royal mail. Cost of the box and wrapping -make it 2 pounds (unlikely, but lets be generous) then it still leaves about 10 quid. Unless they pay their mailorder trolls like 50 pounds an hour (they dont) or as I mentioned before they donate this money to a charity, then them saying "we nevber profit from P&P" is simply a lie. As far as I am concerned they can stuff themselves, expecially that their prices are already a rip off without those post costs charged on top.

nkelsch wrote:I don;t know if you are going to email this dude back, but ask how does one obtain the free shipping on £150.00 orders?

It's in the latest newsletter.

Forgeworld Newsletter wrote:Starting immediately, all orders with a total product value of £150 and over will automatically qualify for free standard rate shipping anywhere in the world.
As previously, all orders with a total product value of £250 or more will automatically qualify for free Express rate shipping anywhere in the world.
Orders with a product value of less that £150 will be charged our standard rates.

jullevi wrote:

nkelsch wrote:I don;t know if you are going to email this dude back, but ask how does one obtain the free shipping on £150.00 orders?

It's in the latest newsletter.

Forgeworld Newsletter wrote:Starting immediately, all orders with a total product value of £150 and over will automatically qualify for free standard rate shipping anywhere in the world.
As previously, all orders with a total product value of £250 or more will automatically qualify for free Express rate shipping anywhere in the world.
Orders with a product value of less that £150 will be charged our standard rates.

Nice, too bad for me they couldn't be bothered to put that on the website anywhere.

Their loss. I would have coughed up some extra money to make sure 20$ of mine didn't go to the ether which would have resulted in a larger order.

Thanks for the info!

wardancer wrote:LunaHound- do your maths- guy wrote that he weighted the item at the post office and it came out as 2.40- FW send it by royal mail. Cost of the box and wrapping -make it 2 pounds (unlikely, but lets be generous) then it still leaves about 10 quid. Unless they pay their mailorder trolls like 50 pounds an hour (they dont) or as I mentioned before they donate this money to a charity, then them saying "we nevber profit from P&P" is simply a lie. As far as I am concerned they can stuff themselves, expecially that their prices are already a rip off without those post costs charged on top.

This has nothing to do with math , you arnt getting my point.

By all means im not saying that guy didnt get over charged for his small order.
Im saying it evens out for the orders that are supposed to cost like 50 GBP to ship but end up for FREE because the large order advertised.

Wait , sort of like Obama's health care for everyone isnt it?

Do enough orders come in that cost enough to take advantage of the free shipping deal?

ProtoClone wrote:Do enough orders come in that cost enough to take advantage of the free shipping deal?

I wouldnt be surprised that people do take advantage of that deals.
Especially friends or FLGS can place an order together rather easily.

On VAT
I don’t claim to be a VAT expert, but……. I’m a UK citizen, but currently I’ve been posted to Saudi Arabia for a few years as part of my job and now own a full time residency Visa for Saudi. This means, whilst I own a UK Passport, my country of residency is Saudi Arabia. I can buy anything in the UK (I did this with a Lap-Top), then, I present the receipt and the stuff I’ve bought to UK Customs in the Airport on the way out. I fill in a form and sign a declaration that the stuff I’m buying is for use in my permanent country of residence, which for the time being, is Saudi Arabia. I am then refunded my VAT. All foreign Nationals can do this if you are living outside the EU. I don’t know how it works for Mail Orders, but certainly if you hand carry your item out the country, you can claim a VAT refund. I’ve done the same when I’ve bought stuff in South America, claimed the local tax back at the airport on the way out. I’ve mail ordered to the UK from US companies, some have removed tax, some have included it.

On P&P
My beef with FW was not the P&P charge at first. It was the statement of ‘we do not profit from P&P, its at cost’, when clearly I’ve proven it isn’t at cost. The cost of packing is irrelevant, because if you picked this up at GW Notts, the same packaging is present, and they’ve not sent anything, and you still fill in a mail order form, which it still processed by FW. The only additional effort as I see it, is the box is put on a scale, its Royal Mail Franked, and put in a pile for the Royal Mail to pick up.

I feel that overcharging smaller orders by a factor of 400% is morally wrong by a company in order to sub larger orders attracting their free P&P offer. If everyone placed an order over 150GBP or picked it up in store, how does FW recover their P&P costs? Clearly this is wrong as well.

Other Stuff
I’ve placed enough orders with FW, some with free P&P, some without. Its just bad PR for a company to profit from P&P, the profit should be in the cost of the product. On Ebay you can rate a seller’s P&P costs, and on some items you list, the cost of P&P is restricted to prevent sellers from overcharging.

I believe their high P&P charges for smaller orders are there to ‘encourage’ people to spend more to get into the bracket of a higher order and to sub the cost of resending stuff out when they’ve got it wrong.

Think about this. Someone places an order for 500GBP. If, by FW’s statement, it actually costs 12% of that to post out, FW would loose 60GBP. As shrewd as GW is, I doubt they would allow one of their companies, to risk loosing that much money on an order, it would be the worse business model in the world.

Just my two pence worth (or cents for our colonial chums) - most companies that rely heavily on mail and courier services have special deals and arrangements in place because they are bulk users of a service. I'm pretty sure FW would have some sort of agreement in place; they must be heavy and regular users of the Royal Mail and other courier frims. I very much doubt they pay the same postage rates as the rest of us poor schleps and I would highly doubt they get as gouged for sending large parcels as you or I would if we went down to our local post office.

fullheadofhair wrote:There is no VAT on FW goods to the US. The price on the website is the price you pay - for UK/Euro sales FW it has VAT in it, for others it doesn't it is just a higher price in effect.

So, if the advertise a piece for GBP 115.00 (assuming rate is 15%:

US Sale = 115

UK Sales (GW) = 100
VAT (to Gov) = 15

If you get a sales invoice in the US it will not say VAT included. that is just the price you pay and represent additional profit. The funny thing is the cheeky bastards then charge extra for shipping. Hilarious, no?

If you buy the same thing and you are in the UK I am willing to bet you get a VAT invoice, that states VAT number of the company and the amount of VAT.

So, they don't charge VAT to US customers as that would be illegal if they kept the money. They just charge you the same price.

I have mentioned this about 2 or 3 times on dakka in the past. Reaction is split between "get over it they are making money and its you choice to pay" and "burn them at the stake". I tackled head of FW on this about 2 years ago - after his POS reply I mentioned that although I live in US I am actually British, an accountant with VAT experience.

Personally I think it is incredible dishonest.

Agreed. I don't buy Forgeworld.

fullheadofhair wrote:There is no VAT on FW goods to the US. The price on the website is the price you pay - for UK/Euro sales FW it has VAT in it, for others it doesn't it is just a higher price in effect.

So, if the advertise a piece for GBP 115.00 (assuming rate is 15%:

US Sale = 115

UK Sales (GW) = 100
VAT (to Gov) = 15

If you get a sales invoice in the US it will not say VAT included. that is just the price you pay and represent additional profit. The funny thing is the cheeky bastards then charge extra for shipping. Hilarious, no?

If you buy the same thing and you are in the UK I am willing to bet you get a VAT invoice, that states VAT number of the company and the amount of VAT.

So, they don't charge VAT to US customers as that would be illegal if they kept the money. They just charge you the same price.

I have mentioned this about 2 or 3 times on dakka in the past. Reaction is split between "get over it they are making money and its you choice to pay" and "burn them at the stake". I tackled head of FW on this about 2 years ago - after his POS reply I mentioned that although I live in US I am actually British, an accountant with VAT experience.

Personally I think it is incredible dishonest.

I understand what they are doing, it just doesn't seem 'right' or 'legal', but it must be, or we'd have heard about by now.

I guess...

(And I really do want all that upcoming Raven Guard stuff too...)

TheSecretSquig wrote:On VAT
I don’t claim to be a VAT expert, but……. I’m a UK citizen, but currently I’ve been posted to Saudi Arabia for a few years as part of my job and now own a full time residency Visa for Saudi. This means, whilst I own a UK Passport, my country of residency is Saudi Arabia. I can buy anything in the UK (I did this with a Lap-Top), then, I present the receipt and the stuff I’ve bought to UK Customs in the Airport on the way out. I fill in a form and sign a declaration that the stuff I’m buying is for use in my permanent country of residence, which for the time being, is Saudi Arabia. I am then refunded my VAT. All foreign Nationals can do this if you are living outside the EU. I don’t know how it works for Mail Orders, but certainly if you hand carry your item out the country, you can claim a VAT refund. I’ve done the same when I’ve bought stuff in South America, claimed the local tax back at the airport on the way out. I’ve mail ordered to the UK from US companies, some have removed tax, some have included it.

To be able to claim VAT back you have to have been charged it. US customers aren't charged VAT on web sales.

If a US person flies to UK and purchase in the US then they can claim VAT back - cannot remember rules as the have changed since I last worked in UK, but I think there is a minimum but then if you are buying at FW hitting the minimum isn't a problem.

A couple comments and questions.

1. Who here works for Forge World in their Accounting department? Anyone?

If not then you don't know what their shipping cost are. Sure you know what the RM charged, but you don't know how much it cost them to pack it. You have the labor of the guy to pack it, the taxes on his salary, the insurance on him as well. Not to mention the overhead allocated to it as well.

Your one order might not cost that much, but lets say you go and order ten different items. The cost of "handling" just went up a great deal. When they say they don't make a profit on shipping, they mean they take there total revenue form shipping subtract cost allocated to shipping and that nets to either small profit, zero profit, or loss.

2. They told you up front how much it was going to cost to ship the item to you. You agreed to that amount so they did not over charge you. You might feel ripped off, but they charged you what you agreed to pay.

jbunny wrote:A couple comments and questions.

1. Who here works for Forge World in their Accounting department? Anyone?

If not then you don't know what their shipping cost are. Sure you know what the RM charged, but you don't know how much it cost them to pack it. You have the labor of the guy to pack it, the taxes on his salary, the insurance on him as well. Not to mention the overhead allocated to it as well.

Your one order might not cost that much, but lets say you go and order ten different items. The cost of "handling" just went up a great deal. When they say they don't make a profit on shipping, they mean they take there total revenue form shipping subtract cost allocated to shipping and that nets to either small profit, zero profit, or loss.

Sorry I disagree....

The cost to pack is irrelavent, so is the labout cost of the guy who did it. If I buy the same order from GW Notts, as I've done lots of times before, or you place an order over 150, someone still picks and packs, the stuff comes in the same box and packaging, you still fill in a mail order form which is processed by the guy at FW, and you are not charged for this.

Why are you not charged? Because it is included in the cost of the product. If FW did not include all their overheads in the cost of their product, then they would have the worse business model in the world as any sale that didn't attract their P&P cost, would be a lost sale.

I didn't complain over the P&P charge. I put a comment on the Order saying I didn't believe it cost 14.65 to post my order out. The Customer services Manger (who've I've no doubt has been alerted to or read this thread) contacted me and was told that they do not profit from P&P, its at cost, it cost 14.65 to send my order out. My view is I've proved that to be incorrect. I checked with Royal Mail (the same delivery mechanism) who quoted 2.41. I cannot see any additional costs involved in sending this out to me, other than the cost of Postage, 2.41, and the 20 seconds it takes for the item wo be weighed, and the Franking machine to print the label. All the other costs, like packaging, picking, warehousing, everything else MUST be included in the cost of the Product, otherwies they would be losing money everytime and order is either collected, or sent out for free.

I'd just like to say keep it up TheSecretSquig. I think it's about time one of their customers said, 'That's more BS than I can take and I'd at least like some honesty about your profiteering.' So keep at it, I agree with you, and please keep on posting.

jbunny wrote:A couple comments and questions.

1. Who here works for Forge World in their Accounting department? Anyone?

We may not work at FW in any capacity, but we do live in the real world.

Plus, on top of that, someone has already cost this out at the RM (or some such) and it was way, way less.

It is fairly common knowledge that companies that CAN certainly WILL make quite a bit of 'shipping and handling'.

Apparently, FW is one of those companies.

Alpharius wrote:

jbunny wrote:A couple comments and questions.

1. Who here works for Forge World in their Accounting department? Anyone?

We may not work at FW in any capacity, but we do live in the real world.

Plus, on top of that, someone has already cost this out at the RM (or some such) and it was way, way less.

It is fairly common knowledge that companies that CAN certainly WILL make quite a bit of 'shipping and handling'.

Apparently, FW is one of those companies.

I do believe I addressed the cost verses the charge for shipping in my post.


Secret@ You can disagree if you want, but I have been a Cost Accountat for years. When it comes to determining cost of activities they are not as clear as customers like to believe.

It does irritate me, tbh.

If they're gonna gouge me, at least be honest about it. It's the direct lie that gets the goat, not the actual practice itself.