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Here is the next lesson installment: Armor Saves/Rolls

ARMOR ROLLS:
After being struck by enemy fire, there is a chance that the target model's armor managed to stop/deflect the bullet from doing any serious damage. Successful armor saves are D20 rolls that EXCEEDS (not equal) the "Damage" attribute of the enemy weapon.

***

Simple Example: Armor Save - Line Kazak out in the open was struck once by an enemy's combi-rifle burst (3-shots, only one hit). Combi-Rifle has a Damage value of 13, so the line Kazak must now make armor 13 save. Line Kazaks has a base armor (ARM) value of 1, so...

In order to survive the shot, the Line Kazak must EXCEED to Damage of the shot, so he must roll 13+ on a D20 to make the save. Here is the magic formula for armor saves.

"Success" Armor Save = D20 + Model's ARM + Cover ARM bonus (if any) > Weapon Damage
"Failed" Armor Save = D20 + Model's ARM + Cover ARM Bonus (if any) < or = Weapon damage

Line Kazak has ARM1 so, if he he manages to get a 13 on his armor roll, then:

D20(13) + ARM1 = 14 (14 is greater than weapon damage of 13, so the Line Kazak lives through the shot)

If he rolled a 12 on his Armor Roll, then:

12 + 1 = 13 (13 is equal to 13 and not "greater than", so he fails the armor roll, takes a wound, and falls unconscious)

Complex Example: Armor Save - Let's add some cover and mix in a more powerful gun and see what happens... Line Kazak hiding in ruins was unfortunately enough to be struck twice by an enemy's heavy machinegun (HMG) burst (4-shots). HMG has a Damage value of 15, so the line Kazak must now make TWO armor 15 saves, because he was hit twice by the HMG. Let's take a look at the modifiers...

Modifiers:
Since the Line Kazak was hiding in the ruins, he has cover, so he gets an armor bonus of +3. With his base ARM value of +1 gives him a total armor bonus of +4. Here is math:

D20(13) + ARM1 + Cover3 = 16 (The Line Kazak survives the hit, and any rolls less than 13 would result in a failed armor save and taking a wound).

***

Although it is difficult to highlight in this example, because the HMG is a significantly more powerful gun than the combi-rifle, but having cover is quite a benefit, as it makes you 15% harder to hit (-3 BS penalty to shoot at someone in cover) and an additional 15% chance for the model to survive hits (+3 ARM bonus for cover). The same Line Kazak in cover against a combi-rifle can make the ARM save on a 10+ instead of 13+, which is fairly significant.

Next up, do the different ammo options for all the Multi weapons, and highlight the fact that someone can take a full 5 HMC shots in the face, fail all 5 arm saves, and still be on the table

Deminyn wrote:Next up, do the different ammo options for all the Multi weapons, and highlight the fact that someone can take a full 5 HMC shots in the face, fail all 5 arm saves, and still be on the table

Yes, I look forward to this as well!

Deminyn wrote:Next up, do the different ammo options for all the Multi weapons, and highlight the fact that someone can take a full 5 HMC shots in the face, fail all 5 arm saves, and still be on the table

Sure, I go into Multi weapons next, but I don't know any units that can survive a full barrage from Hyper-Magnetic Cannon.

Unless you know something I don't?

We had this argument as I had read something somewhere and knew that you can't die from 1 attack, no matter how many bursts. My opponent was using a DA round (multi sniper) and was insta-killing everyone (2 wounds) but I was positive they are just unconscious, not dead. I had to look it up later and found this.

P 148 wrote:When a mini receives as many Wounds as the value of his Wounds Attribute, he falls on the ground Unconcious at the end of the Order, but never before the Burst (B ) is finished: therefore the number of Wounds can exceed his Wounds Attribute.

+

P 149 wrote:If a figure in the Unconscious state receives a new Wound, he dies and will be removed from the battlefield.

so DA doesn't not auto kill anyone! you need to shoot 2 seperate times before he dies

and therefore the HMC opens up, hits 5 times, wounds 5 times, then the poor sod falls unconscious. If you shoot him again, he dies.

And so our poor sap is unconscious, it will only take 1 doctor roll to bring him up to 1 wound too. (163)

This is one of those areas where the rulebook gets a little sketchy... You do have to cut the English rules a little slack as it is translated to from EU Spanish to English.

The key phrase in the rule is:

P 148 wrote:he falls on the ground unconcious.

Although the model does not physically move during the burst, when it is reduced to 0 wounds, it enters the "unconscious" state even though the model does not physically "fall down" at this point. If the model looses any additional wounds while unconscious even if it is from the same burst or DA or T2 ammo, the model passes to the dead state. Obviously there are certain special weapon types, that bypass this ambiguity such as: shock, monofilament, viral, etc. I will go more detail on special weapon/ammo types in my next rules post.

I hope this helps.

1) the key phrase is "at the end of the Order, but never before the Burst (B ) is finished:" which is all from the rule book. The model isn't unconcious until after the burst is done. I would think him dead now except for the line that says,"If a figure in the Unconscious state receives a new Wound, he dies and will be removed from the battlefield." btw, this is the only way to kill someone according to the rules. They have to be unconcious, then take a new wound, to die. When they define when you become Unconcious, they say you don't "fall on the ground unconscoius" until "the end of the Order." So even if you shoot, then move, they aren't unconscious until after the whole Order is complete.

2) You can read battle reports done by Corvus Belli workers where they play it this way on their forum.

I honestly don't see any ambiguity in their sentence, as they even point out you can go below your wounds in wounds. If you play like "even if it is from the same burst" to me that clearly is breaking the "but never before the Burst (B ) is finished" & the "he falls on the ground Unconcious at the end of the Order" part.

(On the translation note, they are pretty good overall. I think saying that they are unconscious standing up but don't fall down until after is nit picking on their choice of words. That argument sits on the choice of saying 'falls on the ground unconcious" instead of saying "becomes unconcious" which to me was an example of a good translation of an English colloquilism. If they were writing in lawyer solid style, "becomes unconscious" would've been better but as since is the place in the book where they define unconcious, I would apply this sentence to "when do I become unconcious" not "when do I go prone from unconsciousness".)

Deminyn wrote:I honestly don't see any ambiguity in their sentence, as they even point out you can go below your wounds in wounds. If you play like "even if it is from the same burst" to me that clearly is breaking the "but never before the Burst (B) is finished" & the "he falls on the ground Unconcious at the end of the Order" part.

Sounds like you already have access to the Infinity forums, and I posted your exact question onto their forum. "Interruptor" who is a member of CB may have already clarified this game mechanic in a previous post. If you found another example on their forum where this rule is contradicted, I would highly encourage you to post it onto their forum.

Here is the post on their rules forum for your reference:
http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity_ENG/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=206&func=view&catid=28&id=45701

EDITS:Typos

Apparently I broke Poko as he just gave up and decided to wait for an admin... In the meantime, I'd like to hear another person's break down of the multi stuff as our group came to conclusion that our first game we played it wrong. I'd like to see another interpretation to make sure we aren't getting it wrong.

edit: Interruptor (an admin) did not rule on this, the closest thing I saw him rule on was doctor + servant's combined healing.

I actually asked this same question last year during TTGN Battle Challenge #1... it was ruled that you do NOT discount wounds from the same burst by dropping into Unconscious.

For example, if you have Valour; No Wound incapacitation you are actually incapable of dropping into Unconsciousness and if you take more than your Wounds stat in damage then you just simply die.

So for example; a fusilier has one wound. He is forced to make three damage rolls; failing two.

The first wound causes him to fall unconscious, the second one kills him.


OR


A Veteran Kazak is forced to make three Damage rolls, failing two. As he is incapable of falling unconscious because of his V:NWI ability he will instead take both wounds (even though his W Stat is only 1) and die.

It has to work this way, otherwise skills like V:NWI, Regeneration and Seed simply do not work.

Besides; being in several pieces or full of numerous holes will make it impossible to patch you up.

Translated rulebooks are often a pain; you just gotta apply some common sense and ask 'if we played it this way... would it make a bunch of other rules not work?'

BTW: Is your opponent using DA Ammo at full burst??? Most DA equipped weapons are only burst 1 actively... making them very useful in ARO (where your burst is always 1) but not very effective during the active turn.

Are you the achilles from the really awesome Achilles vs Axhead reports? 'Cause that's part of where I got this idea. In P1 G1, you even said

In retrospect we made a number of mistakes that would have drastically changed the game. I assumed being overkilled by multiple wounds would push my models past Unconscious and directly to Death... which is not the case! My Aquila and several other models would have remained on the table long enough for my Trauma Doc to get there.

So after this you guys changed back?
(Regeneration still works, so does seed, they came up in the Infinity forum with no conflicts, I can look into V: NWI after work.)

I'm getting confused... (I know, easily done, but still!)

Achilles wrote:The first wound causes him to fall unconscious, the second one kills him.

Pretty much what Achilles said, otherwise abilities like V: Dogged would be completely broken...

Hypothetical (Bad/Exaggerated) example: Let's see... My V: Dogged Ariadna Highlander with a chain rifle runs into your army take 10 ARO's and is reduced to -10 Wounds. The Dogged special rule prevents him from falling unconscious; if I continue to pump consecutive orders into him. If he can't fall unconscious, and can not be killed, so he's basically invulnerable until the end of my turn?

That'd be uber, but also completely breaks the game.

In summary, if a model is reduced to -1 (99% of all units) or -2 (TAGs with G:Remote Presence only) wounds, then it cannot be resuscitated, hence removed from the table.

Sounds about right - and it sounds as if there's a 'lost in translation' issue with the rulebook, I guess?

Salisar wrote:
In summary, if a model is reduced to -1 (99% of all units) or -2 (TAGs with G:Remote Presence only) wounds, then it cannot be resuscitated, hence removed from the table.

The -2 for TAGs thing is new for me, can you point that out for me.

Deminyn wrote:The -2 for TAGs thing is new for me, can you point that out for me.

Sure, here you go! The rules can be found in the rulebook on page 181, on the right column, in the entry directly above the X-Visor rules. Here's the direct quote to make your life a little simpler.

Rulebook wrote: Remote Presence, Manned and Archaic T.A.G.s
T.A.G.s are closed armoured vehicles, so damage will always affect the vehicle much more than any of its pilots. For this reason, instead of Wounds they have Structure values.

Manned T.A.G.s cannot be repaired once they pass from Unconscious to Dead, (Taking the fourth point of Structure damage), while Remote Presence T.A.G.s can be repaired and recovered from the Dead state. An additional Wound Marker should be placed to indicate the Dead state of the T.A.G. If a Remote Presence T.A.G. suffers two points of Structure more than indicated by its Structure (STR) Attribute it is considered destroyed and must be removed from the battlefield.

So manned tags (all nomad ones) don't go to -2? Only the remote presence ones?

Deminyn wrote:So manned tags (all nomad ones) don't go to -2? Only the remote presence ones?

Yep, there's only a few TAGs with G:Remote Presence. PanO Cutter comes to mind... As if a TAG with TO Camo isn't bad enough...

Well, 5 pages and the admin pops in. Done. I was wrong. (which I said on page 4, but people started calling me names, so I kept on arguing back... ahhh nerd rage, I wish I was immune)

I think a bit on TAGs might be in order soon...

Alpharius wrote:I think a bit on TAGs might be in order soon...

Argh, I'm falling behind... Special ammo, then TAGs.

In the meantime, go watch "District 9" and you will see why they are uber.

I loved that movie for lots of reasons, 1 of which was TAG awesomness

Salisar wrote:

Deminyn wrote:So manned tags (all nomad ones) don't go to -2? Only the remote presence ones?

Yep, there's only a few TAGs with G:Remote Presence. PanO Cutter comes to mind... As if a TAG with TO Camo isn't bad enough...

All PanO TAGs are G:Remotes. Operated from the safety of an armoured bunker miles from the battlefield.

Cutters rock.

That said, Monfilament weapons can really ruin their day.

Deminyn wrote:Well, 5 pages and the admin pops in. Done. I was wrong. (which I said on page 4, but people started calling me names, so I kept on arguing back... ahhh nerd rage, I wish I was immune)

At least we got an 'official' answer in the end!

Nice to see that gamers are the same the world over though...

They are still posting even after the admin... very tempting to go nerd rage the place up for fun

edit: couldn't help myself, posted again on it saying thanks to some people, and calling others out... I wonder how far it'll go.

I can't check that site from work for some reason (blocked! But Dakka isn't!), so...

What could there possibly be left to say after the admin posted???

Lol, know how you feel, I can get dakka and my local gaming forum only at work.

Basically, there were 1-2 saying thanks, 1 guy defending himself from me sayig he's a jack...rabbit and 1 guy who missed the whole thing but wanted to put in his two cents about it, and to congratulate a healthy discussion.

i gotta say, this really makes the Interventor Sniper a freakin' super man. The guy ignores camo, has reduced range penalties and just uses DA to drop everything in a shot...

Deminyn wrote:i gotta say, this really makes the Interventor Sniper a freakin' super man. The guy ignores camo, has reduced range penalties and just uses DA to drop everything in a shot...

Interventor Sniper? Hrmm, is this something new in Human Sphere? In the Core rulebook the Interventor cannot take sniper rifles. The only piece of equipment I know that can "ignore camo" (i.e. can attack markers) is the level 3 Multi Spectral Visors (MSVL3). Or am I missing something?

EDIT: Perhaps are you referring to Intruders? They have BS13 with MSVL2 and X-Visors, which makes them pretty awesome snipers. They still have to "discover" camo markers before shooting, but you are absolutely correct that they are not suffer BS penalty versus any forms of camo.

Salisar wrote:

Deminyn wrote:i gotta say, this really makes the Interventor Sniper a freakin' super man. The guy ignores camo, has reduced range penalties and just uses DA to drop everything in a shot...

Interventor Sniper? Hrmm, is this something new in Human Sphere? In the Core rulebook the Interventor cannot take sniper rifles. The only piece of equipment I know that can "ignore camo" (i.e. can attack markers) is the level 3 Multi Spectral Visors (MSVL3). Or am I missing something?

EDIT: Perhaps are you referring to Intruders? They have BS13 with MSVL2 and X-Visors, which makes them pretty awesome snipers. They still have to "discover" camo markers before shooting, but you are absolutely correct that they are not suffer BS penalty versus any forms of camo.

Crap, wrong I name, Intruder yup. pegged it

Next Lesson:
***
AMMUNITION TYPES:
Unlike many games where everyone has the exact same type of bullets and ammunition, certain weapons in the Infinity universe can trigger a variety of effects depending on the type of ammunition or effects your weapon may have. Here is a list of the different ammo types.

Normal (N) – Normal ammunition is your garden variety bullet. If you are hit by one, simply make one standard armor save as based on the Damage value of the weapon that shot the round.

Adhesive (ADH) – The fast acting rubber cement launcher, anyone hit by munition type must make a -6 PH check. If the target succeeds, the model managed to break free from the glue before it solidified. If the model fails the PH check then it is considered immobilized for the remainder of the game until an Engineer can get into base-to-base contact with the affected model and cut them loose with a successful WIP check.

Armor Piercing (AP) – A unit struck by an AP rounds looses half of their base ARM value. In case fractions always round the armor value up. (For example: Line Kazak have ARM1 and is hit by an AP round, his ARM value is technically 0.5 but since this is a fraction, round the ARM value back up to 1. ARM2 becomes ARM1, ARM3 becomes ARM2, etc.)

Note: AP ammo does not affect the +3 ARM bonus provided by cover.

Double Action (DA) – DA ammo basically contain a bullet within a bullet. Hence any model who is struck by a DA round must make TWO (2) separate armor saves against the hit.

Explosive (EXP) – Explosive ammunition types detonate upon impact, and has a chance of causing incredible amounts of damage. Anything that is unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of an explosive weapon must make THREE (3) normal armor saves. OUCH!

Note: Not all EXP weapons cause explosion template, and not all explosion templates cause EXP damage. EXP CCW for example causes a localized explosion when the weapon makes physical contact, and will only affect the target of the weapon. Guided Missiles on the other hand will explode into as a circulate template when a target is hit. Shrapnel from grenades are not powerful enough to cause EXP damage, however a bazooka to the forehead will force you to make 3x armor save...

Electro Magnetic (EM) – EM weapons are probably the most annoying non-lethal weapons in the game. Since Infinity is a futuristic sci-fi skirmish game, almost everything is affected by EM. A hit by EM weapon means the target model must immediate make a BTS save or all his special sci-fi weapons are automatically damaged by the EM weaponry. How is this useful you may add? Is your squad getting taken out by heavy infantry, TAG, or Remote? No problem, hit them with EM. One failed BTS save and bam, they are immobilized. Heck even the most basic combi-rifle can be disabled by EM weaponry. The only way equipment is if you have an Engineer on the payroll. The weapon chart will tell you whether specific equipment types are affected by EM.

Exception: Basic rifles (non-combi) and shotguns and Ariadna heavy infantry are NOT affected by EM. Ariadna heavy infantry do not use mechanized power armor, as they are regular people wearing heavy duty body armor. If medieval knights are not affected by EM, then neither will Ariadna HI.

FIRE – Fire templates always comes from a standard flamethrower or a heavy flamethrower. FIRE damage is brutal in Infinity, because if a single model is hit by FIRE damage he must immediately make an armor save, and the model needs to continue making saves until he either succeeds or dies from the fire! Additionally if an model with camouflage or TO camo is hit by FIRE then their camo is immediate damaged and downgraded to mimetism, which means that the model cannot cloak anymore.

Monofilament (Mono) – Mono weapons is probably the nastiest weapon in the game. Any model who is unfortunately to be struck by a mono weapon must make an unmodified (no ARM bonus) 12 armor check. If they fail armor check, then they will automatically pass to the dead state. Yes you still get an armor save, but it is unmodified 12. Roll less than 12 = instant death. Yes, instant death applies to your 3 structure TAGs.

MULTI – Multi weapons can use a variety of ammo types, and their weapon stats will look a little funky. The burst (B) value will include a set of numbers and the ammunition will also contain a set of ammo types separated by "/".

Example: The MULTI-HMG has B of 4/2/1 and Ammunition stat of N/AP/EXP. Which means that weapon can either shoot 4x using Normal ammo, 2x using AP ammo, or 1x using EXP ammo. You might wonder why anyone would use EXP ammo, as four shots is a lot more advantageous to roll four dice instead of one. However, the one shot of EXP ammo will be perfect for AROs as you can only fire once anyways (unless the shooter has "Total Reaction").

Shock – Shock weapons are designed to cause as physical trauma to the recipient as possible, hence any single wound models who fails their armor save against a shock weapon will automatically pass to the dead state. Please note that Shock rules do not apply to units with Structure (STR) or multiple wounds such as heavy infantry (HI)

T2 – Think Teseum coated hallow-point rounds. One failed save will automatically cause two wounds on the target.

Viral – Viral weapons automatically include the “Shock” special rule (see above). Anyone struck by viral weapons will cause a BTS save instead of a standard Armor save. Additionally viral special ammunition nullifies the Total and Shock Immunity special rules. So shock immune troops can still be instantly killed by viral weapons. As another bonus, any biological beings hit by viral weapons will loose their Transmutation special skill (i.e. Ariadna Dog Face)

AP/EXP - Don't you hate it when an armor piercing explosive weapon comes flying at your units? Yep you guessed it, AP/EXP weapons will not only half the half the natural ARM value of the target but also force them to make 3x armor saves.

Note: Only the target of the missle will be affected by the AP effect. Any models unfortunate enough to be caught in the missile's blast radius will still be forced to make 3x armor saves.

***
I think that's everything, please let me know if I missed something. Enjoy!