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willydstyle wrote:If you don't have hydras, what are you going to do when the fortuned, flat-out wave serpents fly up in your face?

Even with ignoring the flat-out, 2 TL autocannons stop .46 AV12 vehicles per turn (note, at flat-out speeds, you only get 1 turn MAX to take it down before it unloads cargo), and that's BEFORE you consider fortune, and not including things like cover or potential LOS issues, etc. As I noted before, with guard (and probably with every army this edition), it's a fool's game to try and stop transports before they unload. Instead, take those points wasted on a hydra and get a plasma SWS or something. They put out the same number of S7 shots, but they're actually good against lots and lots of things, whereas autocannons have exactly one role: vainly attempting to bust transports before they become moot.

DEFINITELY not the best use of HS slots either.

carmachu wrote:What does that look like, ailaros, if I might ask?

Currently it's a SO+FO+Flag+3 meltagunners in my CS, and then, with minor modifications, three platoons of JO+3x melta, 3x melta SWS, 3x mortar HWS, squad with plasma, squad with flamer.

I've rocked back and forth between either adding more, concentrated mass (12 ogryn), or employing my own mass-dispersal weapons (3 manticores). Currently, I'm back on the latter.

Hydras can also put wounds on high toughness, and along with the hull HBs tackle infantry squads. A hydra squadron of 2 (the only way to run them) will average one glancing and one penetrating hit on the serpent. So that's a decent chance to wreck one.

But yeah, I agree with Ailaos, I prefer to spend HS slots on Russes and Manticores, or occasionally a squadroned pair of Griffons, or even more rarely, a DeathStrike.

Don't you feel you have an overkill amount of meltas? Do you really need 21? I like equipping my SWS with 2 charges and a flamer. Two blasts provide enough redundancy to get the job done, and then the opponent is left with the unenviable choice between "wasting" at least one unit's shooting to kill 40 points of guardsmen, or deal with a scoring unit getting underfoot and torching stuff.

I bring two of these teams with Al'Rahem. My opponents hate them more than Marbo.

i use to think that Hydras would be a waste of my HS slots. until i started running them and the Waveserpents and Rhinos started to disappear. then my Manticore and Russes clean up what falls out. i even have ran a single Hydra and it shined the whole couple of games.

My HS slots in my steel legion army is planned as 3 hydras and 2 manticores.

It's going to be brutal

To the OP's question... it really depends on what you like to play. The IG Codex is so versatile you can make effective builds and still have fun with your favorite units.

I like tanks and lots of pie plates so I decided on a firepower list, heavily mechanized.

Here's my list:

Company Command Squad w/2 Plasma Gunners in a Chimera

Allied IG Inquisitor Lord w/retinue including 2 Vet Guardsmen w/Plasma (for Deepstrikers and Anti-Psyker)

Infantry Platoon consisting of Platoon Command w/Autocannon team in a Chimera w/Hvy Flamer, Hvy Stubber and two Infantry Squads w/Autocannon team in a Chimera w/Hvy Flamer, Hvy Stubber.

Vet squad w/3 meltas and shotguns. They ride in a Vendetta.

Vet squad w/3 meltas and a Missle Launcher team in a Chimera w/Hvy Flamer, Hvy Stubber.

Manticore.

Collossus.

Medusa x2 w/Bastion Breacher shells. One has a hard top.

I'm throwing 15 S6 Multilasers, 15 Hvy Stubbers, 6 Autocannon shots, a Missile, and at least two big templates and two small templates from the Heavy stuff. Sometimes I swap out the Vendetta for a Valkyrie and have another two pie plates at S4 from Missile Pods.

If anything threatens my fire base the Chimeras advance, wall off the attacker and hit them with Flame. Melta Vets get point duty taking out the most threatening transports. Infantry can advance in Chimeras to take objectives or sit back and blob up to provide ablative wounds for the Autocannons. Company Command is the rapid response unit and deals Plasma death to anything that gets close and provides orders to the Vets or Infantry as needed.



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willydstyle wrote:My HS slots in my steel legion army is planned as 3 hydras and 2 manticores.

It's going to be brutal

I like Hydras but have more luck using them as Infantry and Monster killers than anti-vehicle.

The Manticore is good but the straight S10 make them take a back seat to the Medusa for vehicle killing. There's nothing like a 48" range S10 melta gun equivalent to ruin your opponents day.

The AP4 of the Manticore makes them only moderately effective as a MEQ killer so all that's left is anti-horde duty. Since you already have that in the three Hydras you might consider one Manticore and one Colossus or Medusa battery. Hell, even Basilisks would be a good compliment.

willydstyle wrote:My HS slots in my steel legion army is planned as 3 hydras and 2 manticores.

It's going to be brutal

Don't take 3. Harder to hide, easier to destroy, too expensive, and can't take advantage of smoke shenanigans. 2 for 150 is the Sweet Spot.

Well, since their turrets provide easy LoS over chimeras, I'm planning on running them behind my troops.

The Green Git wrote:

The Manticore is good but the straight S10 make them take a back seat to the Medusa for vehicle killing. There's nothing like a 48" range S10 melta gun equivalent to ruin your opponents day.

The AP4 of the Manticore makes them only moderately effective as a MEQ killer so all that's left is anti-horde duty. Since you already have that in the three Hydras you might consider one Manticore and one Colossus or Medusa battery. Hell, even Basilisks would be a good compliment.

The Medusa sucks. No indirect fire + open top + middling range = dead tank with nothing to show for it. If you buy Breacher shells, you're giving up anti-infantry capability to try and tag tanks with a small template (although even indirect hits average 12).

Given the prevalence of cover and area terrain, and the fact that the Manticore can shoot 2-3 templates, the AP4 "disadvantage" is barely noticeable.

Yeah, Manticores are now the best way to kill tanks (at range) with the guard.

S10, ignores cover, can hit even when it misses, and can hit multiple times per turn. Nothing else compares. Sure, it doesnt' roll an extra D6 (but it still picks the highest), but everything else suffers from worse accuracy, worse strength, or the inability to negate cover (or all three, like much of the ordnance out there).

The only things that the manticore is genuinely awful at is killing spread out tac squads and MCs, but that's what you have the rest of your army for.

About the manticore: When it fires a storm eagle and does it's damage, is that d3 large blasts or a large blast with d3 hits per person?

d3 blasts

For real? d3 Large blasts at str 10 AP 4?

Correct, D3 blasts.

I always run 2 Manticores when I can make the points; they're excellent.

Keep in mind that they can do direct fire as well, which is good if you're playing an enemy with lots of long-ranged anti-tank - keep it in reserve, then fire off D3 blasts as it comes onto the board. That, combined with being closed-top standard, makes it much more survivable than other artillery.

Yes, for real and for true!

I run two almost always as well, they are by far the best HS choice we have, as it's good against practically everything.

As a rule, Medusas without Bastion Breachers might as well just be upgraded to a Leman Russ Demolisher. Lose 12" of range, but gain so much armor it won't ever be an issue.

I don't know why people get so hung up with trying to hit a vehicle with a small blast template. As far as anti-tank is concerned it doesn't matter how large your template is. By the way, on a Rhino a template at BS3 has about a 60-72% hit change depending on whether it scatters along the length or the width of the tank. That's just for getting the center on. The Medusa can still easily pen AV11 if you have any part of the template on, making its accuracy more like 85%.

Yes, having to direct fire makes the tank vulnerable, but it can move while firing. You can wait behind cover, then move out to take your shot. Make no mistake, it is a heavy vehicle killer, so you want to earn your points back with that shot. With that 48" range, you're able to pick your target, and hopefully position yourself to deny LoS for your opponent's response. Play it like corner camping in an FPS, or as its properly called "cut the corner."

Anyway, the point is, the Medusa is a really servicable tank sniper. The Manticore is the jack of all trades of the Guard Heavy Support. I like the battery, but if you know what you want you can get it better else-where. The only thing it provides uniquely well is anti-horde.

If you're going to field the Bastion Breacher Medusa, it's worth investing in an enclosed compartment, making it 155 points.

Best option for killing infantry - 2 griffons @150
Best option for killing tanks - breacher medusa @155
Best option for killing anything you damn well please - manticore @160

I take the manticore every time. Maybe next game instead of taking two manticores, I'll try one breacher medusa and 2 griffons.