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willydstyle wrote:

Kugel wrote:

Groslon wrote:What is in the rest of your army Kugel?

Now i use lash sorc with wings, 3 rhino full of melta marines, Greater Demon (summoned), 2 units of lesser demons, chosen 2 meltas and 2 pairs of LC, 3 oblits and 2 possessed vindicators.
I just find, that i can't deal with multi enemy armour at range, since oblits are enemy target priority. So i think to drop 1 vind for something else.

I've been having *very* good luck with an AC/LC pred with a havoc launcher. It maintains the all-purpose role of the obliterator, but gets more firepower/point, and is more durable in many situations, though it can't move and shoot at full effect.

With my stile of play i prefer oblits for anti-armour duty, becose rate of fire (3 las shoots on mobile unit), but i need something, that i will use as hard mobile cover, to chase and suppres enemy troops. So i decide to use vindicators. But, do you know how many pain i ddeal with it? NOTHING. In 6 games with 2 vindicators i kill: 15 guardsmen, 1 chimera, 4 seraphims and one shooted off exoscist turel. That's all. I think with pred i can do more. But pred is anti-duty machine. Stationary it can only be used as area denial unit and only if you go 1st. Becose if you go 2nd, you will have dead pred on turn 1 or turn 2. It's combination of weapons (2 las+AC or TL las+ hbolters) it is realy anti-anti-tank duty. It is good for killing rhinos or truks, or vipers. Even moving chimera will give hard times to ur 10000 years old tank-ace if you will use ac+2 las tank, and you realy do not guarantie kill if he use TL las tank.

It's been my experience that obliterators die much faster than predators. I generally use both.

willydstyle wrote:It's been my experience that obliterators die much faster than predators. I generally use both.

True, pred can last longer, but for it price (near 2 oblits) it is not so universal as oblits. I gladly trade 1 pred or 2 oblits on one dead-as-dead exorcist or leman russ (ooo, do not you think that leman russ has better anti-armour potential?).

2 oblits will die to an exorcist much faster than a pred will.

A leman russ will do better against the pred because it's not AP2, but it still only has about a 1/3 chance to pen. Against a unit of two oblits, it has a smaller, but similar chance to kill at least one obliterator (2+ save is not invincible).

For it's price of 2 oblits, you get 4 anti-armor shots, and a nice anti-infantry blast.

Those same 2 oblits can get 2 lascannon shots (not as good as the pred) 2 plasma cannon shots (better against bunched up-heavy infantry), against infantry using max coherency the oblits are still only getting two hits, where the pred can get up to 5.

The obliterators have twin-linked plasma guns, which is nice against MCs at short range, and they have multi-meltas on a semi-mobile platform. While these are not inconsiderable advantages, I still like my preds better in most situations.

Kugel wrote:Stationary it can only be used as area denial unit and only if you go 1st. Becose if you go 2nd, you will have dead pred on turn 1 or turn 2. It's combination of weapons (2 las+AC or TL las+ hbolters) it is realy anti-anti-tank duty. It is good for killing rhinos or truks, or vipers. Even moving chimera will give hard times to ur 10000 years old tank-ace if you will use ac+2 las tank, and you realy do not guarantie kill if he use TL las tank.

You are probably just inexperienced, but bringing down a Predator without specialized ordnance is difficult in the extreme. Do you know the odds of doing meaningful damage to a Predator with a BS4 Lascannon? 7%. A BS5 Railgun still has only a 20% chance.

As far as damage output to that Chimera, the AC/LC Pred has a 56% chance of getting atleast an Immobilized against the front armor, and an 89% chance against side armor. The all Las has a 64% chance against the Chimera's AV12, but starts to max out on its damage potentional against the side armor with an 81% chance of Immobilizing it. You're never garunteed a kill, but you can come pretty darn close.

150 point Defilers (2x CCW) marching and pouring hate downrange is awesome and fits my playstyle perfectly!

predators, if deployed correctly, are awesome MC/AV hunters

DarkHound wrote:

Kugel wrote:Stationary it can only be used as area denial unit and only if you go 1st. Becose if you go 2nd, you will have dead pred on turn 1 or turn 2. It's combination of weapons (2 las+AC or TL las+ hbolters) it is realy anti-anti-tank duty. It is good for killing rhinos or truks, or vipers. Even moving chimera will give hard times to ur 10000 years old tank-ace if you will use ac+2 las tank, and you realy do not guarantie kill if he use TL las tank.

You are probably just inexperienced, but bringing down a Predator without specialized ordnance is difficult in the extreme. Do you know the odds of doing meaningful damage to a Predator with a BS4 Lascannon? 7%. A BS5 Railgun still has only a 20% chance.

As far as damage output to that Chimera, the AC/LC Pred has a 56% chance of getting atleast an Immobilized against the front armor, and an 89% chance against side armor. The all Las has a 64% chance against the Chimera's AV12, but starts to max out on its damage potentional against the side armor with an 81% chance of Immobilizing it. You're never garunteed a kill, but you can come pretty darn close.

Maybe i am inexperienced, but my not so big exp tell me for sure, that moving predator can shoot only one weapon, so 56% is not an answer.
I do not like to spell this topic in to battle Pred vs Vind, I'd like to hear all opinions. Thanks.

scuddman wrote:

If you don't like the defiler model, you can use the soulgrinder one. I don't know if you might like that one better.

OMG i can't belive i never thoght of doign this. I got a soulgrinder a whiel ago to try and make a demon primarch conversion and gave up and have not touched the model since. You rule!!!!




Anyway, back on topic. I dont have a Pred so cant really comment (never even used one) but they are pretty cheap and can pump out a LOT of dakka.

Vindicator w/ demonic possestion- nice tank, pretty high AV and a killer weapon. BUT they are also bullet magnets. mine never survive past turn 2 and thus rarely get to fire a shot off (althogh that may just be my luck and the peopel i lay with).

The LR is always a good option. It sucks that CSM dont get the different loadout that Sm have but we do pay less for them so......But bear in mind, if you are using it for shooting, without PotMS you can move and only fire one TL lascannon. You might as well get a lascannon turret on a pred and move 6" and fire the same gun and save a load of points. You'd probably save enough point to afford a Rhino as well.

Kugel wrote:Maybe i am inexperienced, but my not so big exp tell me for sure, that moving predator can shoot only one weapon, so 56% is not an answer.

That's the nature of heavy weapons: you've got to sit still to fire them. Why move when you have a 48" range with all your weapons?

DarkHound wrote:

Kugel wrote:Maybe i am inexperienced, but my not so big exp tell me for sure, that moving predator can shoot only one weapon, so 56% is not an answer.

That's the nature of heavy weapons: you've got to sit still to fire them. Why move when you have a 48" range with all your weapons?

Just to play the Devil's Advocate: terrain has a lot to do with it.

willydstyle wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

Kugel wrote:Maybe i am inexperienced, but my not so big exp tell me for sure, that moving predator can shoot only one weapon, so 56% is not an answer.

That's the nature of heavy weapons: you've got to sit still to fire them. Why move when you have a 48" range with all your weapons?

Just to play the Devil's Advocate: terrain has a lot to do with it.

True, there is terrein on table when we play 40k, isn't it?

Jihallah wrote:

Kugel wrote:
I just find, that i can't deal with multi enemy armour at range

You're playing CSM, so this is a bit of a "duh"

I'd vote Vindi- if i were to draw up a take-all-comers list, then the Vindi is the most likely tank of choice for me- Rhino's are a transport so don't fit the bill of tank imo (but i agree with Sanctjud, Rhino's #1!), and Landraider ARE horrible compared to vanilla SM ones, and are confused in their role, with a bunch of choppy units inside it, but lascannon sponsons? mixed with a HB? big case of "what the hell am i supposed to be doooiinnnggg!?!?!", which imo makes it more a transport+gunboat, less a actual tank,

I Agree 100%

I play on a Cities of Death board converted for regular 40k. Very rarely do I have to move my tank thanks to TLOS, although the enemy may get a cover save. On a more regular board, with hills and more craters than buildings, LoS is much less of an issue if you deploy correctly.

DarkHound wrote:I play on a Cities of Death board converted for regular 40k. Very rarely do I have to move my tank thanks to TLOS, although the enemy may get a cover save. On a more regular board, with hills and more craters than buildings, LoS is much less of an issue if you deploy correctly.

Rule book recomend to have at least 2 LoS blocker terrain pieces. maybe that's why we have different point of veiw on anti-tank units. I prefer mobile anti-tank, you prefer units, that are good at stationary fire power.

Kugel wrote:

DarkHound wrote:I play on a Cities of Death board converted for regular 40k. Very rarely do I have to move my tank thanks to TLOS, although the enemy may get a cover save. On a more regular board, with hills and more craters than buildings, LoS is much less of an issue if you deploy correctly.

Rule book recomend to have at least 2 LoS blocker terrain pieces. maybe that's why we have different point of veiw on anti-tank units. I prefer mobile anti-tank, you prefer units, that are good at stationary fire power.

I play with far more than that and theres no trouble. Why? Because theres always something else to shoot at, and the units preds shoot at are already bigger as is, making it difficult to cram them in. Plus I have 2 predators at 2 different angles, so good luck with that...

Night Lords wrote:

Kugel wrote:

DarkHound wrote:I play on a Cities of Death board converted for regular 40k. Very rarely do I have to move my tank thanks to TLOS, although the enemy may get a cover save. On a more regular board, with hills and more craters than buildings, LoS is much less of an issue if you deploy correctly.

Rule book recomend to have at least 2 LoS blocker terrain pieces. maybe that's why we have different point of veiw on anti-tank units. I prefer mobile anti-tank, you prefer units, that are good at stationary fire power.

I play with far more than that and theres no trouble. Why? Because theres always something else to shoot at, and the units preds shoot at are already bigger as is, making it difficult to cram them in. Plus I have 2 predators at 2 different angles, so good luck with that...

And this is another reason to bring multi-purpose thread. If your opponent puts infantry in their LoS you get to shoot effectively, if your opponent puts tanks in their LoS they get to shoot effectively, so it minimizes your opponent's ability to nullify your shooting through use of terrain.

Kugel wrote:Rule book recomend to have at least 2 LoS blocker terrain pieces. maybe that's why we have different point of veiw on anti-tank units. I prefer mobile anti-tank, you prefer units, that are good at stationary fire power.

By converted Cities of Death, I mean 4-5 ruined buildings along with other walls and fiddly bits. Between the crumbling wall sections and windows you can usually see a large section of plating. Sure they get a cover-save, but those shots are for after you've exhausted other options (ie units directly in LoS).

As far as mobile anti-tank, you're basically screwed. The closest we have to that is either Bikers or Raptors with Meltaguns, both of which are too expensive to be used solely as anti-tank.

But why use them solely for anti-tank when they're also good at anti-infantry? Flexibility is a good thing if you have redundant flexible units; trying to combine specialist units and generalist units in the same army means you lose the redundancy necessary for the flexible units to work well, and won't have enough specialist units for redundancy in all the necessary roles, or even enough specialists to cover al the necessary roles!

This goes for tanks too. The Vindicator is good precisely because the Demolisher Cannon is so flexible.

Thanks to you guys for ur help. I choose predator with 2 LC sponsons and AC. It is best for de-mech my enemies.