Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They have the worst characters of any marine dex. Ive made armies with BA, and HQ is always my last choice. Nothing else in the army is really threatening. Wolves are certainly a better list.

Librarians are on par with Rune Priests. The rest is meh.

Gwar! wrote:

Dedrith wrote:I don't like them, and I don't like the fact that they have everything vanilla Space Marines have, and then so much more.

Yes, all those Blood Angel Thunderfire Cannons are really gonna change the metagame.

BA do NOT have everything Nilla marines have, and the advantages they have are balanced by much higher points costs.

Alright, let me re-phrase that.

I don't like them, and I don't like the fact that they have JUST ABOUT everything vanilla Space Marines have, and then so much more.

I'm surprised I haven't seen people talk about the potential to load up a land raider crusader with a chaplin HQ (forget the name and codex is at home), a priest, and a bunch of lightning claw/thunderhammer terminators.

You could get terminators with feel no pain, furious charge, and reroll misses in close combat (plus reroll strength 5 lightning claw wounds). Yes it costs 700+ points, but it will tear through just about anything.

Death company are expensive, but for a unit of 11 plus lamartes in a land raider redeemer will really wreck havok on most thing they charge.

However, for 155 points a five man assault squad with melta & power fist in a fast razorback with a twin linked heavy flamer is a very good buy.

Blood angels can also run a TON of land raiders if desired.

The Stormraven is overpriced in comparison to the Vendetta, IMO you are better off with a raider.

Unless you are going for a hard core assault army, you can really make a very shooty army with 3 vindicators, 3 bhaal predators, and a bunch of razorbacks.

Also, the ability to reroll one roll a game can be pretty epic. I can see it now:

"Do we have a turn 6?" -IG player holding on for the win
"Can I roll it?" -BA Player
"Sure" -the roll is a 1 "Looks like I win"- IG
"Let me reroll that" BA

I love new codices. They're like a litmus test for idiocy.

Nurglitch wrote:I love new codices. They're like a litmus test for idiocy.

Unusually, I am in perfect agreement with you.

I don't have the new codex, but a friend of mine has been raving about it all weekend.
You guys are saying their special characters aren't up to snuff, but my friend was talking about how epicly awesome Mephiston is now.

So is he not that awesome?

And apparently there can be librarian Dreadnaughts that can fly... that gives me nightmares.

Libby Dreads are great.

Mephiston is a beast, but he's not an IC, so can be shot to hell before getting near you. Admittedly, he's the 40k equivalent of your avatar - but he isn't unstoppable, and is costly.

Playing against the blood angels with my space wolves I can just tell ya that they have very strong support elements. Granted I was playing against a list with no troops choices eating points (my opponent didn't tell me, but it was for funsies, whatever)

They are like regular marines but they just have so many little things that make them hard to fight.

I want to get some more games in but it seems like the marine army where you need to go after support elements first rather than go after the troops.

I have to say, Mephiston has impressed me so far. I had my doubts about him (250, and he can't be in a unit?), but every single battle I've used him he's just single-handedly decimated everything he gets into combat with. I play against 'Nids quite often, and Mephiston regularly brings down Trygons, Carnifexes, Tyrants, you name it. I need to try and get him against Swarmlord to see what happens there. The lack of an Inv save hurts him, but he's T6 with W5 so you need a lot of heavy weapons to bring him down (as he'll hit most Assault units first with I7). Most light-arms fire won't even phase him, due to the T6/W5/2+ combo. Stick a Sanguinary Priest within 6" and he gets FNP as well. He's very, very expensive but from what I've seen so far, he's definitely worth using in larger battles. In small battles I'd probably use a regular Librarian/Epistolary or a Reclusiarch.

As for the Codex, as a whole it's very nice. If you've played BA for a long time, this Codex is an absolute blessing after playing with a gimped so-called Codex PDF. My only concerns with the army list are the cost of Death Company and the lack of a model for the Stormraven.

Fluff-wise I do have some issues. Death Company used to have Black Rage, and then Red Thirst was a rule that made them go crazy in combat. Now Black Rage does that, and Red Thirst has been relegated to a simple Fearless/Furious Charge. Also, I really, really don't like the background material for The Sanguinor. Almost every battle mentioned in the Codex he turns up, owns everything and disappears (aside from the Night Lords Battle Barge where he only kills the CSM in his way). I just don't like how he's effectively a 'win-button' in the fluff. As for the Necron-BA alliance... don't even get me started.

Overall it's a massive improvement from the PDF, but the fluff does let it down a bit. Still, after so long without a REAL Codex, I'll take whatever I can get. Can't wait until the next 40k army release though, I'm gonna hate seeing everyone repainting their Ultramarines to Blood Angels.

@asugradinwa: You can't have DC with Lemartes in a Land Raider- Lemartes has a Jump Pack, and he's effectively an upgrade character for the DC so I don't think he can leave them.

Tim the Biovore wrote:

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:There hasn't been a single post without any form of negativity in it. Why can't you all just be happy little Vegemites?

I for one like the new BA codex. In fact, from now on, to express this, I will only refer to them as... Love Marines!

1. Because they are overpowered. I mean, Deep-striking LR? C'mon.

And 2. Have you even read the Codex?

A deep striking Land Raider isn't overpowered, it's just stupid.

"Hey, let's drop our super expensive tank out of a low flying aircraft, close to enemy lines where it can mishap or be in range of their melta guns and close combat weapons!"

Flawless!

lol
Anyone tries to use Tactical Squads en masse like the Ultras can do is going to be very disappointed...

I like it and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I wish DA had got this treatment. It's not got everything that the Vanilla Marines have (Land Speeder Storm and Thunderfire Cannon being the two missing entries that I noticed) and I do think you pay for what you're getting, especially with regards to the Death Company!

I thought Red Thirst was a freebie, but it effectively replaces Combat Tactics (vanilla marines' useful ability to opt to fail a morale test and fall back) and you're by no means guaranteed to get it. In that respect, it's inclusion in the codex is fairly balanced.

@Neith: Very good point. I guess there will have to be a Reclusiarch ridding with the death company instead.

I like it

What I've read, I've liked. I plan on picking up my own copy soon and painting plenty of assault marines up in the same paint scheme as my vanilla Marines, can use 90% of my models for both BA and Marines then

It's a nice codex and I'm afraid I'll like it better than my SM codex for the simple reason that it's so much more mobile.

What I don't like is that this codex makes it even more clear how superfluous tactical squads are.

Personally I think they are powerful and can really dangerous against certain armies but alright against others. I see the BA right behind the Space Pups in terms of strength but it is fairly close in that regard.

They have a lots of great toys and a lot of iffy options but all the iffy stuff you can EASILY avoid. Yes Rhinos are like 50% more expensive, but no one said you HAVE to take them. They got drop pods, land raiders (that deepstrike!), or just go jump pack infantry. Assault squads even get a discount if they go with a transport instead of jump packs (which then makes them cheaper than a tact squad if you want a transport). Preds are only slightly move expensive and honestly for like 10 points it is worth getting fast vehicle so you don't have to stand still the entire game to fire all your guns. Plus you keep your Vanguard and Sternguard veterans, now I could understand the Vanguard but Sternguard is kinda weird since I thought they were supposed to be the really unique unit in the vanilla marine codex.

I'm at the point with the standard Space Marine codex that unless you are using a HQ that alters the entire army, don't bother with the vanilla Space Marine codex and look at either Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

On a side note: I love how so many people are defending Thunderfire Cannons and Land Speeder Storms now. I think it is hilarious since a month or two ago these things were considered complete trash but now they are GREAT because no one else has them! I'm hoping I am not the only one finding that funny. At least use Venerable or Ionclad dreads, wait a moment...

Shrubs wrote:What I don't like is that this codex makes it even more clear how superfluous tactical squads are.

Yes, given the choice between a 170 point Tactical Squad and a 190 point Assault Squad, I think most people are going to lean towards the latter option. You wouldn't even buy a 90 point 5 man combat squad to hold objectives, because scouts can fulfill that role.

I think Tactical squads will need either a points drop or some kind of bonus ability (perhaps reflecting their semi-veteran status in relation to Assault and Devastator Squads) in future editions. A simple but effective one would be something like Bolter Drill i.e. the ability to reroll bolter misses when shooting.

MotF is Nilla unique, and actually good. Although...he edits the FoC, so...

Speaking of units 'unique' to Codex: Space Marines, Ironclads are more expensive than Furioso Dreadnoughts, but have a Seismic Hammer rather than a Blood Fish (aka Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon), which confers +1 to damage results, integral Extra Armour when adding Extra Armour to a Furioso immediately makes it more expensive than an Ironclad, an integral Searchlight, the Move Through Cover special rule, the option for two Heavy Flamers, and the option of Ironclad Assault Launchers.

I've been playing my Furioso as an Ironclad or Venerable Dreadnought, and the new Furioso rules are a downgrade.

Blood Talons are nice, so long as you don't have to worry about other walkers, and the Magna Grapple is a fancy Krak Missile, and Furious Charge is good if you're not charging an enemy in cover, and the WS6 is pretty awesome but...

Overpriced? Ye-NO. Ten to fifteen points extra for fast vehicles across the board is crazy. Why even think about taking a gunship when you can have three AC/LC preds scooting about 6" and firing all weapons?

Where's the drawback for a 1 in 6 chance of fearless/furious charge at no increase to base cost of core units?

Where the hell did all this blood come from? Was it not enough for their chapter to have a sanguine tone with the typical space marine terminology?

Who decided it would be a good idea to make 6" bubbles of FNP for any, ANY army in the game for peanuts in points costs?

Why did they give every tactical/assault squad in the army the opportunity to drive a land raider out of the sky?

... and finally, the biggest question of them all:

Why play standard 40k with this army? All jump units gives you something that deploys on turn 2 (>75% of the time) with half the usual scatter. It's like you're playing Chaos Daemons, except you have four times the deep strike accuracy (reroll reserves + less scatter) and three times the survivability (FNP, 3+ saves, 5+ cover bubbles from Libbys, etc. etc. etc.) and more killing power at range when you land (melta guns, plasma pistols, psychic powers, etc. etc. etc.) for something like... an extra 30% in cost? Oh, and all of your units doing this can be troops.

If you don't see GW re-inventing the wheel with each new codex as a bad thing, try to remember back to the days of Magic: The Gathering. Type 1 sets! Vintage sets! Type II sets! Look at all that money vaporizing!

Slackermagee wrote:
Where's the drawback for a 1 in 6 chance of fearless/furious charge at no increase to base cost of core units?

View it from the opposite side; they're the same cost as vanilla marines but 5/6ths of the time they have nothing in exchange for Combat Tactics.

Jack

Slackermagee wrote:Overpriced? Ye-NO. Ten to fifteen points extra for fast vehicles across the board is crazy. Why even think about taking a gunship when you can have three AC/LC preds scooting about 6" and firing all weapons?

Where's the drawback for a 1 in 6 chance of fearless/furious charge at no increase to base cost of core units?

Where the hell did all this blood come from? Was it not enough for their chapter to have a sanguine tone with the typical space marine terminology?

Who decided it would be a good idea to make 6" bubbles of FNP for any, ANY army in the game for peanuts in points costs?

Why did they give every tactical/assault squad in the army the opportunity to drive a land raider out of the sky?

... and finally, the biggest question of them all:

Why play standard 40k with this army? All jump units gives you something that deploys on turn 2 (>75% of the time) with half the usual scatter. It's like you're playing Chaos Daemons, except you have four times the deep strike accuracy (reroll reserves + less scatter) and three times the survivability (FNP, 3+ saves, 5+ cover bubbles from Libbys, etc. etc. etc.) and more killing power at range when you land (melta guns, plasma pistols, psychic powers, etc. etc. etc.) for something like... an extra 30% in cost? Oh, and all of your units doing this can be troops.

If you don't see GW re-inventing the wheel with each new codex as a bad thing, try to remember back to the days of Magic: The Gathering. Type 1 sets! Vintage sets! Type II sets! Look at all that money vaporizing!

In Soviet Russia, wheel reinvents you.

I think you're too caught up with this. Try writing a Land Raider Drop army. Seriously. See how little you can fit in it. Especially at anything under 2k. Try it for 1500.

I like the flexibility of the new dex. They can certainly do a better assault army than Chaos that's for sure. I dislike the fact that everything seems too fantasic and overdone (6'' FNP, librarian dreadnaughts and deepstriking LR just to name a few). I hope the next chaos book is as flexibile as the BA book, minus the Matt Ward craziness.

I read the rules for Mephiston and just about threw up. He's ridiculous for his points. IMO he should be 300. But then again, I missed that he wasn't an IC, so that might balance it.

I also noticed that death company are cheaper than berzerkers and better than them in almost every way. The only advantage zerkers have is they're a scoring unit. Admittedly that can be a big advantage, but DC still get FNP on top of all their goodies.

I picked it up yesterday and after reading through it I'm happy with it. I think there's alot of the usual new codex over-reaction out there. Yes they do get good things but they pay for them. As someone who has always run jumppack heavy I'm happy that it's still a valid option.
Not sure exactly what my army will look like in the end. The price of Death Company with jump packs is making me wary of running them at the unit size I'd prefer. It may end up that multiple assault squads supported by Sanguinary priests will be a better way to go.

I like most of the fluff, Sanguinor excepted. While an interesting idea I think the writing describing it and it's exploits let it down. Not sure every chapter needs a mystical ally/allies that show up "in times of direst need".

The Necron thing annoys me less than others, I mainly see it as a hint at them really giving Necron Lords a wide variety of personalities which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

They seem to have abandoned the notion that after the First Founding they stopped using Blood Angels gene-seed. I think this is a nice change. It's easy to see the High Lords wanting to believe someone who's telling them " We think we have the flaw isolated and under control this time" only to be proven wrong again and again.

Dante should have an Iron Halo or some other invulnerable save, Tycho too. Basic Captains get an Iron Halo, did they lose theirs or have to turn them in to wear the muscled armor?
Astorath intrigues me mostly to get the greater chance at Fearless/Furious Charge. Not sure I like his background that he's the only one who does that for all the Angels and their Successors.

Overall I like it, maybe more than the Space Wolf Codex, which is saying a lot as they have been my favorite army for a very long time, but I don't think anything in the Angels codex is as silly as space marines riding wolves...

Both Dante and Tycho have Iron Halos listed in their Wargear.

It's ridiculous. Perhaps not undercosted (though I haven't decided it isn't), but seriously...

You take space marines, who are supposed to be the elite, and then make them more elite. And then you make them faster, and pissed off. And give their dreadnaughts psychic powers. And then you have Angry Marines - er, no, sorry, Blood Angels.

I understand the desire to make everybody in the army AWESOME!!1!11!!1 but really... tone it down a bit, man. Even if people are paying reasonable points prices for what they're getting, rank-and-file space marines don't need to be Chuck Norris, Muhammad Ali, Iron Man, and the Flash all at the same time.

As for DSing LRs... really, you all think it's a terrible idea because of the possibility of mishap? I'll be the first to say that it wouldn't always be useful, but on occasion - like, say, against Tau, where every turn you're not in range of their S10 gun is a turn don't have to worry about getting out of your wrecked LR and footslogging it - I'd think it would be fine. A LR's DS footprint isn't larger than a Soul Grinder's, or much bigger than a large unit of daemonettes, both of which can't go on the table without deepstriking... and you'll be scattering half the distance. Yeah, my daemons mishap every once in a while, but when it happens it's usually because I'm being either desperate or stupid. Or both.

Noisy_Marine:

Let's compare Berzerkers to Death Company directly:

Death Company/Berzerkers
-Can't hold objectives/Can hold objectives
-20pts each/21pts each
-Fearless/Fearless
-Furious Charge/Furious Charge
-Black Rage/nothing
-Relentless/nothing
-Feel No Pain/nothing
-WS5/WS5
-A2/A2
-Ld8/Ld9
-Min.3/Min.5
-Character:Lemartes/Character:Skull Champion

The Death Company advantages are Relentless, which is just a little useless (this coming from the guy whose own Death Company has Bolters), Feel No Pain, which is nice against anything that isn't effective against Power Armour anyways, and 1 less point. So one big advantage and one small advantage. What do the Berzerkers have going for them? They can hold objectives. They suck at it, but they can. They don't have a Rage rule. Seriously, Rage sucks, particularly where they have to consolidate towards the closest visible enemy. It means they need a vehicle to go somewhere useful, and they'd better kill something expensive because they're going to have to be lucky to get a second chance.

Characterful, lovely new models (and good idea to get a sprue of Blood Angel specific stuff out there), and better than Berzerkers in the two ways, the ones that don't actually count (Holding objectives and being controllable vs -1pt and Feel No Pain...).