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It's wonderful for players in the long run to have a flexible codex and this has been the mind set of GW for a very long time. What we're seeing now is a propensity to make codices TOO flexible. Each one is getting to be top class at too many things. Guard used to be a horde/shooty army. Now they can be mech horde, fast mech horde, uber-gunline, fast-uber-gunline, outflanking madness, and so much more! With the right kit you can be excellent in every phase of the game. Ditto for nids and space wolves (they got vastly improved maneuverability and we're already passable to excellent at just about everything).

Armies should have things they CAN'T do. Things that only other armies can pull off (like crazy psychic powers belonging to the armies that don't think of it as a dangerous semi-heretical act). It's going to be like Fantasy eventually, with the only differences between armies being the number of models doing awesome things each turn. A ton of models doing okay things or a handful being rockstars with the end results being IDENTICAL.

Ick. Ick ick ick.

I so far with the few games i have played like the new codex, and I do think it's balanced. Death Company though, with Rage is a huge flaw. A good general with a fast unit or two can pull them where they want them, with little ability to acuratly control them unless you put them in a vehicle I find I will not be taking them. (AM picking up a box though, those bits in there rock). Mephiston and Sangiunor are good, but lack of IC means large target, because no one in their right mind wants either of those guys in close combat with an important unit and you can just shoot the crap out of them, they will fail saves eventually even at 2+ for Mephy. Deep striking land raiders is so dangerous that you will never see it, the footprint plus 2d6 scattering is a recipe for a 7 point gaunt being underneath the raider and thus killing it and it's contents. The new Blood Talons are amazing anti infantry weapons, the 13 front armour helps tremendously. Dante is amazing in that stick him in a SAng Guard with Melta guns and literally deep strike exactly 1 inch away from a vehicle and hit it with melta guns. (He is cheesy in my opinion, that death mask is nuts.) The biggest strength this codex has is one two punches. The combo potential is amazing for breaking a game in your favour when they work.

Nurglitch wrote:Let's compare Berzerkers to Death Company directly:

Characterful, lovely new models (and good idea to get a sprue of Blood Angel specific stuff out there), and better than Berzerkers in the two ways, the ones that don't actually count (Holding objectives and being controllable vs -1pt and Feel No Pain...).

Missed the 0-1 restriction...
____

@Slacker: You've got Guard players who started in 5 editions, each with different preferred gaming & play styles. Catering to all of them to some extent requires more flexibility in the Codex. And really, why shouldn't Guard be playable as a Mech force.

So, instead of every Codex being mono-build, it looks like they're getting multi-build. That really isn't bad at all. There are things that BA can't do, and that is why SM exist. There are things that SW do better. Or just plain differently. That's not a bad thing, either. I just don't see the problem.

And really, if every army can be good at everything, how are Guard dominating in the Assault Phase? Please tell. How about BA massed firepower?

This is what I thought was really funny about the new codex:

BA recruit, starts as a scout, learns to hide good.
Turns into a full marine, and joins an assault squad, learns the trick of deep striking really accurately.
Grows up joins the dev squad, and then the tac squad. And, if he stays alive, eventually gets promoted to 1st company, where he's allowed to pick his own weapons. Most pick jump packs, cause, you know, they're BA, and they like those. But he forgets how to deep strike accurately.
Finally, if he is double-plus-super-good at being a BA, he gets to be a sanguinary guard - and remembers how to deep strike accurately again.

For a codex that's all about jump troops, and how accurately an precisely they can make it to the field, it seems extremely strange that their vanguard units don't also get the Descent of Angels rule. Since when did being a veteran make you less capable than your new recruits?

Actually I had wondered about that too until someone pointed out that Jump Packs confer the Descent of Angels rule to Blood Angels, and that Vanguard Veterans have Jump Packs as an options rather than default wargear.

Redbeard wrote:This is what I thought was really funny about the new codex:

BA recruit, starts as a scout, learns to hide good.
Turns into a full marine, and joins an assault squad, learns the trick of deep striking really accurately.
Grows up joins the dev squad, and then the tac squad. And, if he stays alive, eventually gets promoted to 1st company, where he's allowed to pick his own weapons. Most pick jump packs, cause, you know, they're BA, and they like those. But he forgets how to deep strike accurately.
Finally, if he is double-plus-super-good at being a BA, he gets to be a sanguinary guard - and remembers how to deep strike accurately again.

For a codex that's all about jump troops, and how accurately an precisely they can make it to the field, it seems extremely strange that their vanguard units don't also get the Descent of Angels rule. Since when did being a veteran make you less capable than your new recruits?

vanguard do have descent of angels if you give them jump packs.

Redbeard wrote:This is what I thought was really funny about the new codex:

BA recruit, starts as a scout, learns to hide good.
Turns into a full marine, and joins an assault squad, learns the trick of deep striking really accurately.
Grows up joins the dev squad, and then the tac squad. And, if he stays alive, eventually gets promoted to 1st company, where he's allowed to pick his own weapons. Most pick jump packs, cause, you know, they're BA, and they like those. But he forgets how to deep strike accurately.
Finally, if he is double-plus-super-good at being a BA, he gets to be a sanguinary guard - and remembers how to deep strike accurately again.

For a codex that's all about jump troops, and how accurately an precisely they can make it to the field, it seems extremely strange that their vanguard units don't also get the Descent of Angels rule. Since when did being a veteran make you less capable than your new recruits?

Jump packs give you the Descent of Angels rule.

Wow, there you go. I guess I didn't read the part about jump packs, as I figured they'd be the same as jump packs for every other army. Silly me...

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Slacker: You've got Guard players who started in 5 editions, each with different preferred gaming & play styles. Catering to all of them to some extent requires more flexibility in the Codex. And really, why shouldn't Guard be playable as a Mech force.

So, instead of every Codex being mono-build, it looks like they're getting multi-build. That really isn't bad at all. There are things that BA can't do, and that is why SM exist. There are things that SW do better. Or just plain differently. That's not a bad thing, either. I just don't see the problem.

To a point, I agree. But I don't understand why guard have options for being fast, other than rough riders. Valks were a bizarre addition, even if the model and rules are cool and people love them. It's about as odd as if GW came out with an Eldar codex that had units equivalent to plague marines in it... not completely unjustifiable with some retconning, but still a major head-scratcher.

@Redbeard: Because every other Rhino / Razorback / Storm Shield has the same rules?
____

@DaveL: Guard getting Valks isn't a bad thing - it's a cool model, and lets Guard play 5E (Objectives) properly. I think you'll see new stuff for Necrons, Eldar, etc. that change the game as well. Perhaps, we'll finally have Official rules for the Slicing Orb Aspect.

DaveL:

You mean like Wraithguard?

I've not yet read the codex, but my impressions are that it's somewhat balanced. That aside...

What I don't like about what I've heard:

1) Deep striking landraiders is epically slowed.
2) Magna-Crapple or whatever it's called = massive game design FAIL!
3) The stormraven should have just been a freekin' Thunderhawk.
4) Librarian dreadnoughts... are you freekin' kidding me? LAME!

The writer needs punched in the face for his momentary lapse in good judgement and bout of idiocy.

I believe this codex will continue to be received badly not because it's 'over powered', but rather it give the Blood Angels 'toys' and abilities that were completely unheard of in the 40K universe until now. It's different and not a good different, but a very strange different.

I've never liked Blood Angels and this new codex had me interested for a brief time, but now seeing how 'strange' it is leaves me in the same seat of distaste.

oni wrote:I believe this codex will continue to be received badly not because it's 'over powered', but rather it give the Blood Angels 'toys' and abilities that were completely unheard of in the 40K universe until now.

I've never liked Blood Angels

Yeah, it's totally unlike:
- Thunderwolf Cavalry
- Mawlocs & Tervigon
- Land Raider Redeemer, Land Speeder Storm, Thunderfire cannon, Ironclad Dread, Vanguard Veterans
- Defilers
- Land Raider Crusader
- Baal Predator & Furioso Dreadnought
- C'Tan, Tomb Spyder, Pariahs & Flayed Ones
- Land Speeder Typhoon
- Talos, Wyches, Haemonculi
- SM Vindictor
...
Seriously, how far do you want to go back?

At least your honest about your real motivation here.

Actually I think oni crystallized what's been bugging me about this codex: it reads like one of the fan-dexes we see down in the depraved depths of the Proposed Rules forum, except instead of being safely tucked away where it can be ignored, it's being sold in stores.

This codex gives me hope for my future career in rules writing and game design.

@Nurglitch: Thing is, nobody forces you to use the wierd stuff. Don't like DSing Land Raiders? Don't take them, and don't DS them.

It's the same with the original Craftworlds Codex: didn't like the Jetbike models, didn't buy them, don't play as Saim-Hann.

In many ways, things like DSing Land Raiders are like MtG Dragons and giant Greens. They're flashy, and awesome if you ever make them work. But usually, not strong

JohnHwangDD:

Of course nobody is holding a gun to my head. I don't have to use "the wierd stuff". I'm moreso concerned about the ordinary stuff that used to be my Blood Angels army. I've adapted them for Codex: Space Marines and I'm finding it hard to adapt my army to the new Codex.

Take the Devastators, for example. They have cheaper Heavy Weapons, which is good. But they have the Red Thirst instead of Combat Tactics, which is bad. Maybe I'm spoiled or something, but I don't want to play Devastators that can't escape from combat.

Or the Rhinos. I'm now paying an extra 15pts per Rhino, which is fine because I'm not paying the extra for the Death Company that are now almost worse than useless. A Fast Whirlwind is nice, but I don't want a Fast Whirlwind because I want my Whirlwind parked behind line-of-sight blocking terrain.

I actually like that I can take both my Captain, my Librarian, and my Chaplain all in the same army now, and I like the fact that I can use my Furioso Dreadnought as a Furioso Dreadnought, although I rather prefer having it count as an Ironclad or swapping its right arm and being a Venerable Dreadnought.

I guess Blood Angels just aren't my style anymore.

@Nurglitch:

Nothing wrong with that, although I'm addressing the issue planning to partition my SM as into C: SM & C: BA forces that share models. So when I want to play Devastators & 2 CCW Ironclads, I play C: SM. When I want massed JPs, it'll be C: BA.

Nurglitch wrote:You mean like Wraithguard?

Heh. Fair point. Perhaps I should've said giving Dark Eldar a monolith instead?

@Nurglitch

You can still play them as vanilla. If you'd been using the PDF rules, then you never would have had combat tactics, your furioso would be getting an upgrade and it the rhino increase wouldn't be as bad.

Anyone thought about the dread list, cheap libby HQ, some death company, and Dread Dread Dread

OH HEY, LOOK AT THAT!

The first codex to get an assault 2 flame template. It's also a free upgrade from an assault weapon!

WAKAWAKAWAKA

Deep Striking Land Raiders go full distance.

They do not have Descent of Angels.

Elessar wrote:Deep Striking Land Raiders go full distance.

They do not have Descent of Angels.

That's what locator beacons are for....

JohnHwangDD wrote:

oni wrote:I believe this codex will continue to be received badly not because it's 'over powered', but rather it give the Blood Angels 'toys' and abilities that were completely unheard of in the 40K universe until now.

I've never liked Blood Angels

Yeah, it's totally unlike:
- Thunderwolf Cavalry
- Mawlocs & Tervigon
- Land Raider Redeemer, Land Speeder Storm, Thunderfire cannon, Ironclad Dread, Vanguard Veterans
- Defilers
- Land Raider Crusader
- Baal Predator & Furioso Dreadnought
- C'Tan, Tomb Spyder, Pariahs & Flayed Ones
- Land Speeder Typhoon
- Talos, Wyches, Haemonculi
- SM Vindictor
...
Seriously, how far do you want to go back?

At least your honest about your real motivation here.

Than you should know that I'm right.

doubled wrote:Anyone thought about the dread list, cheap libby HQ, some death company, and Dread Dread Dread

Libby dread is elite. No dread HQ.

Elessar wrote:Deep Striking Land Raiders go full distance.

They do not have Descent of Angels.

You would seem to be correct, sir.

I apparently misread the codex's RAW, thinking that assault squads in vehicles were supposed to be able to use Descent if they DS'd inside the vehicle, but I can't find justification for that. It is odd that they have Descent independently of jump packs, but I guess it was a simple oversight...

In any case, even scattering the full amount isn't an insurmountable problem unless the table is completely covered in impassable terrain.

Arschbombe wrote:

doubled wrote:Anyone thought about the dread list, cheap libby HQ, some death company, and Dread Dread Dread

Libby dread is elite. No dread HQ.

That's why he said "cheap libby HQ", and not "cheap libby DREAD Hq".

As for my first impressions, I think I can now finally take an army that is not mech and still have a chance. I like jump-pack spam.

doubled wrote:Anyone thought about the dread list, cheap libby HQ, some death company, and Dread Dread Dread

I actually made a 2000 point list that had 11 dreadnoughts in it. Granted chances are it won't be worth anything but still something to think about.
Basically it is a Librarian, a 25 man death company, 5 Death Company Dreads, 3 Librarian Dreads, and 3 standard dreads. Eat that Master of the Forge.

SirRouga wrote:I actually made a 2000 point list that had 11 dreadnoughts in it.

See, now that's pretty darn cool, just because you can do it.