Impressions of the New Blood Angels Codex

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**oni**

oni wrote:I've not yet read the codex, but my impressions are that it's somewhat balanced. That aside...

What I don't like about what I've heard:

1) Deep striking landraiders is epically slowed.
2) Magna-Crapple or whatever it's called = massive game design FAIL!
3) The stormraven should have just been a freekin' Thunderhawk.
4) Librarian dreadnoughts... are you freekin' kidding me? LAME!

The writer needs punched in the face for his momentary lapse in good judgement and bout of idiocy.

I believe this codex will continue to be received badly not because it's 'over powered', but rather it give the Blood Angels 'toys' and abilities that were completely unheard of in the 40K universe until now. It's different and not a good different, but a very strange different.

I finally got around to picking up the codex tonight and I stand by my original comments. The Magna-Grapple, thankfully, isn't as much of a fail as I had come to expect. There's provisions to make it rather hard for it to drag a LR or other heavily armoured vehicle and only has a 12" range.

**Luke_Prowler**

I think what we got here is a failure to communicate. We got different definitions of over-powered, ranging from "rather unfair" to "extremely game-breaking". The chicken-littles and munchkins are not helping.

**doubled**

A deep striking landb raider is not that big a deal, 9 times out of ten the clear ground where you want to land the thing you would reach by turn 2 or 3 anyways.

**candy.man**

kaptaink wrote:The BA codex is not being accepted well in my area.

A) no one plays them
B) everyone looks at their rules and is like 'wtf'

The thing about them is that they have so much of everything, that really the weaknesses (I am admitting they have them) are not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Terrible characters mean little to some people that barely take advantage of the HQ section at all. And, it's not like their HQ slot is lacking, great Librarians that dwarf their C:SM brothers is still something to look at.

Point costs for their vehicles are negligible at best. Considering, 90% of C:SM, CSM, SW, BT, DA etc. players would gladly pay the points to have their Rhino chassis be fast. Point costs of troops aren't a huge deal either, considering you get the discount on transports with the removal of jump packs on Assault Marines, it all balances out.

I think "overpowered" is a bit drastic when describing this codex. 'Poorly designed', and 'stretched imagination' is perhaps a better tag to give it. The ONLY thing I will say about this book being remotely OP is the FNP bubbles that these incredibly cheap Priests give. I don't think him chillin' with ASMs or Tactical Marines is a big deal, it's when he starts going around Mephiston, or Terminators, that it becomes a bit ridiculous. But, you get what you pay for I guess, and power weapons will still kill everyone. So, keep your Null Zone around.

And, MY first impressions of this book is 'try hard'. They tried so hard to have this book be 'different' and while succeeding (I suppose) they have made some pretty silly rules, along with some pretty good ones (that should belong to all SM chapters). Bad rule example: Deep striking LRs. Good rule example: remove jump packs for cheap transports.

Finally, while I am not defending any whining going on here, you have to sympathize with some of these people here. Yeah they are going to complain about BA having everything (that really counts) that C:SM have but more, and why shouldn't they? They do. But I just don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be. But just remember, some people want to play their armies and not be losing games simply because they don't want to pick up the newest Marine codex, but blaming a codex for a loss (unless your 'Crons or DH) is silly.

Anyway, peace.

QFT

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. It's not that they are OP per se but badly designed. If the book was a bit more stream lined with some of the craziness and synergy held in place, we wouldn't be having this discussion (except maybe a classic new codex worry thread which I believe this is not). Essentially the book appears to have too much synergy and appears to be able to play any style of list and do it well (more play testing will essentially be needed to fully break this down on a mathhammer level). While point costs and the gimmicky nature of the dex appear to have held most things in place (some people think they are going to be crushed by an unstoppable wall of FNP termies, jump packs and dreads but a gimmicky list like that would be tiny and easy to beat), the synergy sticks in my opinion. The fully "cheesy" BA list is also yet to be discovered.

Also I definitely agree about sanguinary priests being a bit OP due to the numerous amount of synergy possibilities. They essentially turn anything into highly effective Plague Marine + Khorne Bezerker hybrids. Personally I believe Sanguinary priests should only apply 1 of the 2 bonuses and not both (on an additional purchase cost basis for whichever bonus the player wants their priest to give). Either that or limit the different types of units the bonuses can apply to (to limit scarey FNP deathstar lists).

**I grappled the shoggoth**

All I have to say is that space marine players of all people have no right to complain about new codexs. Its this stupid system of always updating marines that keeps the xenos races from getting books often/decent books.

**kaptaink**

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:All I have to say is that space marine players of all people have no right to complain about new codexs. Its this stupid system of always updating marines that keeps the xenos races from getting books often/decent books.

Which is my huge issue with this game as a whole. Other games are obviously made to make money, but it seems like they push this game so hard to make money any possible way. Maybe I am just naive, but I feel like there should be some sort of loyalty to your player base that doesn't really exist with GW.

Hell, they can't take the time to FAQ the 'Nid codex that has how many issues? Or, they can't break their cycle of Marine codice to update books that are from over 10 years old.

**Khorzho**

candy.man wrote:
kaptaink wrote:The BA codex is not being accepted well in my area.

A) no one plays them
B) everyone looks at their rules and is like 'wtf'

The thing about them is that they have so much of everything, that really the weaknesses (I am admitting they have them) are not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Terrible characters mean little to some people that barely take advantage of the HQ section at all. And, it's not like their HQ slot is lacking, great Librarians that dwarf their C:SM brothers is still something to look at.

Point costs for their vehicles are negligible at best. Considering, 90% of C:SM, CSM, SW, BT, DA etc. players would gladly pay the points to have their Rhino chassis be fast. Point costs of troops aren't a huge deal either, considering you get the discount on transports with the removal of jump packs on Assault Marines, it all balances out.

I think "overpowered" is a bit drastic when describing this codex. 'Poorly designed', and 'stretched imagination' is perhaps a better tag to give it. The ONLY thing I will say about this book being remotely OP is the FNP bubbles that these incredibly cheap Priests give. I don't think him chillin' with ASMs or Tactical Marines is a big deal, it's when he starts going around Mephiston, or Terminators, that it becomes a bit ridiculous. But, you get what you pay for I guess, and power weapons will still kill everyone. So, keep your Null Zone around.

And, MY first impressions of this book is 'try hard'. They tried so hard to have this book be 'different' and while succeeding (I suppose) they have made some pretty silly rules, along with some pretty good ones (that should belong to all SM chapters). Bad rule example: Deep striking LRs. Good rule example: remove jump packs for cheap transports.

Finally, while I am not defending any whining going on here, you have to sympathize with some of these people here. Yeah they are going to complain about BA having everything (that really counts) that C:SM have but more, and why shouldn't they? They do. But I just don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be. But just remember, some people want to play their armies and not be losing games simply because they don't want to pick up the newest Marine codex, but blaming a codex for a loss (unless your 'Crons or DH) is silly.

Anyway, peace.

QFT

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. It's not that they are OP per se but badly designed. If the book was a bit more stream lined with some of the craziness and synergy held in place, we wouldn't be having this discussion (except maybe a classic new codex worry thread which I believe this is not). Essentially the book appears to have too much synergy and appears to be able to play any style of list and do it well (more play testing will essentially be needed to fully break this down on a mathhammer level). While point costs and the gimmicky nature of the dex appear to have held most things in place (some people think they are going to be crushed by an unstoppable wall of FNP termies, jump packs and dreads but a gimmicky list like that would be tiny and easy to beat), the synergy sticks in my opinion. The fully "cheesy" BA list is also yet to be discovered.

Also I definitely agree about sanguinary priests being a bit OP due to the numerous amount of synergy possibilities. They essentially turn anything into highly effective Plague Marine + Khorne Bezerker hybrids. Personally I believe Sanguinary priests should only apply 1 of the 2 bonuses and not both (on an additional purchase cost basis for whichever bonus the player wants their priest to give). Either that or limit the different types of units the bonuses can apply to (to limit scarey FNP deathstar lists).

Thank God.... I'm glad some people on the net are seeing this with more logical analytical eyes... reading Warseer would make you think there's nothing wrong with this book, and everything is hunky dory balanced.

Synergy IS too great with this army. The number of special rules that can be applied to most units is tantamount to absurdity. Added to the comments above is that there is even MORE synergy with Fast Vehicles and Assault Delivery options (Jump Pack Dreads, Descent of Angels, DS LRs).

Lots of folks say "well, BA have higher point costs"... this is marginal at best, and not true at worst. Example.... their Assault and Tactical squads are identically priced as the Vanilla Space Marine counterparts. And while they have fewer long range options with their Heavy Support, they easily make up for this with sheer brutal CC power.

This book has actually prompted three of my friends to put the game down indefinitely. I'm actually tempted to as well. The potential for making game breaking armies with this Dex is on par with 2nd edition silliness. WHAT was GW thinking (or not)?

**jbunny**

Please show me the magic blood angels list that can not be beat. I have not found it yet.

**Terminus**

I consider BA balanced. They are no stronger than Space Wolves or IG (in fact, I think they fall somewhat short).

So far what I've seen on the net regarding Blood Angels is one of two things:

1. Folks that have played with and against the new codex, and are calmly judging the book to be strong, but not outrageous, due to cost limitations.

2. People like Khorzo freaking out about theory and conjecture that flies in the face of reality, and frequently based on poor understanding of the rules.

Try to build a list, or have your friends build some lists, play them, and see for yourself. Or better yet, since you're so convinced that everyone who isn't crapping their pants over this codex is insane, why not just quit the game? Obviously Matt Ward is the Harbinger of Doom, destroying one game system after another. You should flee while you have the chance, and leave us blind fools behind to suffer for our ignorance.

**I grappled the shoggoth**

They are marines, they can be beaten.

**Gornall**

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:They are marines, they can be beaten.

Lies! The Emprahs Sphess Marinez never lose!

(Personally, I think it looks like a fun codex with a lot of cool options... like Libby Dreads! I don't think it's really overpowered... even though I do think it does my Mech Marine list better than the SM codex.)

**cosmic pixie**

Any codex is powerful while you don't know what you are fighting. It will even out in a couple of months.

**cygnnus**

Khorzho wrote:

Thank God.... I'm glad some people on the net are seeing this with more logical analytical eyes... reading Warseer would make you think there's nothing wrong with this book, and everything is hunky dory balanced.

Synergy IS too great with this army. The number of special rules that can be applied to most units is tantamount to absurdity. Added to the comments above is that there is even MORE synergy with Fast Vehicles and Assault Delivery options (Jump Pack Dreads, Descent of Angels, DS LRs).

Lots of folks say "well, BA have higher point costs"... this is marginal at best, and not true at worst. Example.... their Assault and Tactical squads are identically priced as the Vanilla Space Marine counterparts. And while they have fewer long range options with their Heavy Support, they easily make up for this with sheer brutal CC power.

This book has actually prompted three of my friends to put the game down indefinitely. I'm actually tempted to as well. The potential for making game breaking armies with this Dex is on par with 2nd edition silliness. WHAT was GW thinking (or not)?

Seriously? This is the same drek we hear when every new codex comes out... Lash is broken. Squadrons of IG artillery are broken. "Squads" of Carnefexes are broken. JotWW is broken. Sounds more like the record is broken...

When C:BA sweeps 'Ard Boyz tournaments around the globe, then we can say the Blood Angels Codex is broken. Until then, it's a lot of the same old complaining that occurs everytime a new Codex comes out.

Let's see the lists that are actually "game breaking" before we start complaining about how broken the 'Dex is... Let's see how other players start to find holes in the "game breaking" lists. Sure there are some nasty builds in the Codex. But at the risk of shouting, THERE SHOULD BE.

Sanquinary Priests are 1W MEq ICs. They're not that hard to kill. There's no way to hide them in assault since they have to move before the rest of the squad if they've joined it.

The fast AV13 list might be a tough nut to crack for some lists, but I'm seriously not seeing it topping the IGMech/Leaf Blower list. Just doesn't have the firepower.

I doubt anyone would argue that there's not some silly/stupid stuff in the Codex. Deep striking Land Raiders would seem to be exhibit A on that front. But that's not the same as "breaking the game". Heck, most of the silly/stupid stuff is red-herring type material. Looks great at first pass, but when you actually try it in a game (vice playing interwebz theoryhammer), they just don't tend to work as well as you might want...

Hey, maybe I'm missing something, but how about seeing how the Codex settles in before we all start crying that the sky is falling?

Valete,

JohnS

**kaptaink**

No, they are not game breaking. But, they have things in there that should have been a part of Marine lists in the beginning (ASM discounted transports I'm looking at you).

Are Baal Predators OP, no, they are just a fast AV13 tank. And you should never forget it has AV11 on the sides, so don't be afraid of it, just envelop it.

Are the Priests OP? No, they are just a silly cheap option that gives such a huge advantage for a little cost in comparison.

The argument is that there are lots of 'silly/stupid' stuff in the book.

And on a side note, my other beef is that everyone things it's soooo much better than C:SM for some stupid reason and they are ditching their current rules so that they can 'better represent their chapters'... RIIIIGHT. I had 'New Codex Bandwagon Jumpers.' It sucks that marines all look the same so these people just say 'counts as' and it's all well and good.

**Gornall**

kaptaink wrote:And on a side note, my other beef is that everyone things it's soooo much better than C:SM for some stupid reason and they are ditching their current rules so that they can 'better represent their chapters'... RIIIIGHT. I had 'New Codex Bandwagon Jumpers.' It sucks that marines all look the same so these people just say 'counts as' and it's all well and good.

I detect a hint of jealousy there... Xenos player perhaps?

**Nurglitch**

It's somehow appropriate that people are bewailing the sky falling when it's the Blood Angels.

**kaptaink**

Gornall wrote:
kaptaink wrote:And on a side note, my other beef is that everyone things it's soooo much better than C:SM for some stupid reason and they are ditching their current rules so that they can 'better represent their chapters'... RIIIIGHT. I had 'New Codex Bandwagon Jumpers.' It sucks that marines all look the same so these people just say 'counts as' and it's all well and good.

I detect a hint of jealousy there... Xenos player perhaps?

Nah man, C:SM player. Salamanders, but I rarely use Vulkan at my point levels I play.

I'm not at all jealous, I like my codex more every time I play it.

**cygnnus**

kaptaink wrote:No, they are not game breaking. But, they have things in there that should have been a part of Marine lists in the beginning (ASM discounted transports I'm looking at you).

Are Baal Predators OP, no, they are just a fast AV13 tank. And you should never forget it has AV11 on the sides, so don't be afraid of it, just envelop it.

Are the Priests OP? No, they are just a silly cheap option that gives such a huge advantage for a little cost in comparison.

The argument is that there are lots of 'silly/stupid' stuff in the book.

And on a side note, my other beef is that everyone things it's soooo much better than C:SM for some stupid reason and they are ditching their current rules so that they can 'better represent their chapters'... RIIIIGHT. I had 'New Codex Bandwagon Jumpers.' It sucks that marines all look the same so these people just say 'counts as' and it's all well and good.

Sure... GW made Devastators overpay for their heavy weapons in C:SM. SW and BA (and likely future Marine lists) benefit from GW recognizing that. Similarly, Vanilla SM underpay for their TH/SS Termies. SW and BA (and future Marine lists) lose out on that front. SM get revisited a lot since GW puts to much effort into SM lists, so there's always going to be some "updating" of the rules. Look at how the rules for the Machine Spirit and Assault Cannon have changed from C: DH to C: DA to C:SM (et al). The surprise to me would, honestly, be if GW managed to get everything right the first time around.

I'll readily agree that there's some(?) silly/stupid stuff in there, but that's not what most of the, uh, C:BA haters seem to be fixating on. And, again, most of the silly/stupid stuff is just dumb, not broken per se. DS'ing Land Raiders and Stormravens carrying two units don't break the game. They're just silly add-ins that won't likely be used much outside of the odd Apocalypse game... Putting 500+pts in a DS'ing platform that has a serious chance of dying if it lands on a grot (the LR) or is an AV12 model (the 'Raven) just doesn't strike me as something that'll put the fear of Sanguinius in serious players.

Mephiston is a bit of a puzzle to me on that front. He's obviously very powerful, but he can still be tar-pitted, can't score, and is a significant points sink. I suspect that anyone knowing they'll be up against Blood Angels will need some robust psychic defense to keep him (and the rest of the BA psyker options) under control. For some armies, that's a real issue. But that's really no different than anyone playing against Space Wolves or Chaos at this point, is it? Some armies just have trouble matching up with some armies. And any army that lacks psychic defenses will have a hard time with Mephiston if they can't tar-pit him.

Valete,

JohnS

**DaveL**

I do kind of have to wonder what's in store for the Dark Eldar. Descent of Angels would've been a pretty good rule for DE...

**LastManOnEarth**

Blood Angels may or may not be overpowered relative to vanilla Space Marines. I don't know.

In my opinion, the basic problem is that to a large extent the BA list looks like a superset of the vanilla SM list. Most of the core SM units (Tactical Squads, Scouts, Bikes, Terminators, vehicles) are available in mostly identical form in the BA list, with the +10pt Fast Rhino (et.al.) vehicles being the most obvious difference. So it's hard to not see where the "BA have everything SM has, plus some" attitude comes from.

That attitude may be a bit oversold, but it does help indicate how the designers haven't done a good job in differentiating the two. If the argument boils down to the importance of Combat Tactics and Thunderfire cannons, there clearly isn't enough separation between the two.

Q: "What can vanilla SMs do that BAs can't?"
A: "Run away from combat, and their slow vehicles cost less".

Presumably the point behind BA is that they are fast and aggressive, and BA armies should be built to emphasize these strengths. I don't think it was a good idea to enable "non-BA" style builds in the BA codex, since vanilla SM already supports those.

IMO the BA list should have done more to remove or penalize non-fast and non-aggressive units. This would leave a strategic niche for vanilla SMs compared to BA (and SW): a more disciplined balanced arms approach compared to balls-out assault. Vanilla doesn't have the same CC punch, but doesn't risk going out-of-control on you. This is the Combat Tactics/Red Thirst difference, but made more obvious at the army list level.

LMoE

**candy.man**

Your idea would suggest GW actually using fluff when writting a codex.

**Arschbombe**

kaptaink wrote:No, they are not game breaking. But, they have things in there that should have been a part of Marine lists in the beginning (ASM discounted transports I'm looking at you).

You must mean for razorbacks and land raiders. Vanilla ASM can trade their packs in for a rhino or pod for free which amounts to the same 35 point discount that the BA get.

**Terminus**

cygnnus wrote:
Sanquinary Priests are 1W MEq ICs. They're not that hard to kill. There's no way to hide them in assault since they have to move before the rest of the squad if they've joined it.

The fast AV13 list might be a tough nut to crack for some lists, but I'm seriously not seeing it topping the IGMech/Leaf Blower list. Just doesn't have the firepower.

Just a quick note on these, the close combat vulnerability is not that big, because you only have to move the IC first during pile in moves. You can still easily assault with the unit and keep him out of btb.

As for the fast AV13 list, those predators are quite expensive and have side AV11. They cannot win a tank battle against IG (so all these razorspam armies make me laugh).

kaptaink wrote:No, they are not game breaking. But, they have things in there that should have been a part of Marine lists in the beginning (ASM discounted transports I'm looking at you).

Vanilla ASM DO get discounted transports, its just that they can only choose between a pod and a rhino.

The argument is that there are lots of 'silly/stupid' stuff in the book.

And on a side note, my other beef is that everyone things it's soooo much better than C:SM for some stupid reason and they are ditching their current rules so that they can 'better represent their chapters'... RIIIIGHT. I had 'New Codex Bandwagon Jumpers.' It sucks that marines all look the same so these people just say 'counts as' and it's all well and good.

There is silly/stupid stuff in every book. Some flying angel guy that shows up out of nowhere is no stupider than wolf wolfingtons with wolfclaws and a wolf saga riding a wolf. Space Vampires and Werewolves have always been stupid, so nothing has changed in that regard.

As for the bandwagon-jumpers, ignore them. People of that sort usually chase the flavor of the month uber list because they are terrible players, and can't design (much less play) a decent list if their life depended on it. If they win a game, it's usually due to both them and their opponent not being familiar with the new rules and making an outright mess of them (some folks do this on purpose and take advantage of the convenient "oh its a new book, I misread" excuse). When the next book comes out (Grey Knights? Black Templar?) they will jump ship again, and still suck.

LastManOnEarth wrote:Blood Angels may or may not be overpowered relative to vanilla Space Marines. I don't know.
Q: "What can vanilla SMs do that BAs can't?"
A: "Run away from combat, and their slow vehicles cost less".

Presumably the point behind BA is that they are fast and aggressive, and BA armies should be built to emphasize these strengths. I don't think it was a good idea to enable "non-BA" style builds in the BA codex, since vanilla SM already supports those.

I'm not sure it's necessary to handcuff player options this way. If someone wants to build a "traditional" Marine list using the BA codex, who cares? Combat tactics is far more than just "running away", so best of luck to them on that venture.

**JohnHwangDD**

LastManOnEarth wrote:Presumably the point behind BA is that they are fast and aggressive, and BA armies should be built to emphasize these strengths. I don't think it was a good idea to enable "non-BA" style builds in the BA codex, since vanilla SM already supports those.

The ability to build a non-BA-specific list is for those who still think that BA are a Codex Chapter, or want to play them that way.

More precisely, Spiky Marines can field:

Spiky Captain & Spiky Librarian
Spiky Dread
2x 5 Spiky Stabby Termies in Spiky Land Raider
6x 10 Spiky Bolter Marines in Spiky Rhinos
2x 10 Jumpy Spiky Fighty Marines
2x 10 Spiky Shooty Marines in Spiky Rhinos
Spiky Predator

(it's Spiky Battle Company FTW!)

If that's possible, why shouldn't BA ape the Codex Astartes Battle Company organization?

**Aduro**

I need to point up a list of 2x Tac Squads in Land Raiders, 3x Baals, and 3x Vindicators, plus some cheap HQ and see what it comes out to.

**LastManOnEarth**

Are they a Codex chapter or not?

If so, why would they need their own Codex?

If not, why would they need virtually every option available to Codex chapters?

My complaint is that the codex sits halfway between being different and being the same. It looks too much like a superset of C:SM which allows them to pick the 'best of both worlds'.

This is annoying for vanilla SM, since BA pull from both the shiny new BA toys AND the reliable C:SM standbys.

This is annoying for non-SM, since GW is dedicating development and release cycles to "Codex: Differently Colored Space Marines with Minor Deviations" and letting "Codex: Something Different Than Yet Still Another Space Marine Army" suck hind tit and languish for yet still another year.

Space Wolves didn't bother me because they were actually different enough from C:SM to be interesting. You couldn't just swap out a few SM units with more effective SW versions and have a strictly superior list.

But right now the only thing that prevents my 1850 SM list from ALSO being a legal BA list is the extra points for the fast rhinos/razorback/predator. That level of sameness is fundamentally less interesting to me.

LMoE

**cygnnus**

Terminus wrote:
cygnnus wrote:
Sanquinary Priests are 1W MEq ICs. They're not that hard to kill. There's no way to hide them in assault since they have to move before the rest of the squad if they've joined it.

Just a quick note on these, the close combat vulnerability is not that big, because you only have to move the IC first during pile in moves. You can still easily assault with the unit and keep him out of btb.

Huh... Would you look at that... Guess the folks I've played with (myself included!) misread that bit on p49. You learn something new every day... Still, I think the overall point well stands. They're W1 MEQ ICs which aren't that hard to kill in an assault.

Valete,

JohnS

**JohnHwangDD**

LastManOnEarth wrote:Are they a Codex chapter or not?

They are a Chapter which pays lip service to the Codex, in the same way that we all agree not to drive faster than the speed limit when there's a police cruiser nearby.

**Nurglitch**

LastManOnEarth:

Actually it's the differences in points value, and rules such as Combat Tactics, that keep interfering with my own efforts to translate my Codex: Space Marine army into Codex: Blood Angels.

Originally the army was made as a dual-purpose Blood Angel/Chaos Space Marine army since both armies had equivalents (Possessed/Death Company, Furioso/Chaos Dreadnoughts, etc). But eventually the army split into Chaos Space Marines and Blood Angels.

Part of my problem is, perhaps, the Devastators. I'm a fan of Space Marine Devastators. I'm a fan because in combination with Combat Tactics they can do brutal close support in combination with Dreadnoughts and so on. Without Combat Tactics they're worse than worthless because a Fast Predator is going to do what they do faster, more reliably, and cheaper. Okay, not everything, but everything I want to do with them.

However I do like being able to put my Devastators in the same list as my Land Raiders, and my Chaplain in the same list as my Captain and my Librarian, although it makes for a hard choice to put in my Dreadnoughts (Furioso and normal, but no Venerable) in the same army as my Terminators.

Something that I've consider is trying to figure out a Blood Angels list for my Chaos Space Marines since they share similarities of armament (Chaos Raptors with two Melta Guns, Chaos Space Marines with special weapons although the rest are armed with Bolters...).

**JohnHwangDD**

Nurglitch wrote:Originally the army was made as a dual-purpose Blood Angel/Chaos Space Marine army since both armies had equivalents (Possessed/Death Company, Furioso/Chaos Dreadnoughts, etc). But eventually the army split into Chaos Space Marines and Blood Angels.

Something that I've consider is trying to figure out a Blood Angels list for my Chaos Space Marines since they share similarities of armament (Chaos Raptors with two Melta Guns, Chaos Space Marines with special weapons although the rest are armed with Bolters...).

I've been puzzling over this as well, trying to reshuffle my Marines to cover various Codices.

Right now, I'm looking at two different approches:
- core with Codex-specific swaps for SM (core) / CSM (Cult) / BA (JP)
- lowest common denominator for CSM (CSM) / BA (Mech)

Both armies will share models due to the overlap issues you mention above, with the same overlapping models (Fury = CSM Dread, AM w/ Meltas, etc.)