Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ShumaGorath wrote:

But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.

I'm sorry, you must have been missing every time half a dozen posters including yourself spoke poorly of islam for the past year. You must also have not been watching when modern television mocked their religion and constantly berated it as violent and foolish since 2001. I can see how you would think that they get some sort of special pass when we are engaged in wars in two of their countries, recursively stop and question people of middle eastern descent because of security concerns relating to the religion, and talk about whether or not it's violent consistently in every single topic involving the religion or the region its most popular in.

Yes, I can see how you would think all these things.

Do the blinders your wearing really keep all that out that well or are you just trolling?

Ive never seen TV mock Islam, only report on current events involving them. I was not aware that we went to war against Iraq and Afghanistan because they are muslim countries. I have never heard of a security guard telling someone he was pulled through security "because youre muslim."

Its never openly about Islam, even when it should be, and I think thats the point OP is trying to make.

Except it's not openly about Islam.

A security guard stopping someone for a "random" inspection isn't because "Well, he looks Muslim!".

It's because he looks Middle-Eastern. The two may be similar, but you don't see them stopping Nigerians or Filipinos for the random security sweeps(unless the guard doing the sweep happens to be particularly knowledgeable).

And where the hell have you been Falcon? Fox News and alot of the talking heads on other networks in the days following 9/11 were talking about the "barbarity" of the Islamic religion.

This has allready been touched on, but Islamofascists are a small portion of the greater Islamic world. Most of that militantsy comes from culturally influenced interpretations of the Koran. Mostly from the middle eastern culture which is derived from primitive nomadic tribes.

The Koran itself is so open ended that just about any interpretation for Jihad can be applied, whether that be the internal struggle over the sin nature of man, or "Kill the infidels".

I know muslims that are of east Indian descent and they reject the "crazies" as "bad" Muslims.

So, I think a better outlet would be against "bad Muslims" and not greater Islam.

GG

ShumaGorath wrote:

But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.

I'm sorry, you must have been missing every time half a dozen posters including yourself spoke poorly of islam for the past year. You must also have not been watching when modern television mocked their religion and constantly berated it as violent and foolish since 2001. I can see how you would think that they get some sort of special pass when we are engaged in wars in two of their countries, recursively stop and question people of middle eastern descent because of security concerns relating to the religion, and talk about whether or not it's violent consistently in every single topic involving the religion or the region its most popular in.

Yes, I can see how you would think all these things.

Do the blinders your wearing really keep all that out that well or are you just trolling?

Modquisition on.
I'm stepping out, other than for the occasional needed wiener dog action photo, to mod this.
Everyone will be polite, or the thread will be closed and persons suspended. Discuss the topic in a polite manner to other posters.

Shuma, you and i have had this out many times before, you know i have a general dislike for Islam as a whole, and i concede this is slightly irrational but is a response to living and working in Islamic countries and not liking what i saw. But im not trolling, im asking why Islam doesnt get criticized as much as Christianity in general.

Its not like it has a better track record.

People dispute me when i say that it, but its true. It doesnt get criticized as much, people are scared of mocking Islam, but not scared of mocking Judaism, Mormonism, Christianity, Scientology et al.

I say it is because people fear repercussions, this is denied by Muslims.

And you say.. what?

I have not heard an acceptable answer that is different from mine.

Look at the forums here, people slate Christianity, but leave Islam well enough alone, and i think this speaks volumes of the both of us.

Kanluwen wrote:Except it's not openly about Islam.

A security guard stopping someone for a "random" inspection isn't because "Well, he looks Muslim!".

It's because he looks Middle-Eastern. The two may be similar, but you don't see them stopping Nigerians or Filipinos for the random security sweeps(unless the guard doing the sweep happens to be particularly knowledgeable).

And where the hell have you been Falcon? Fox News and alot of the talking heads on other networks in the days following 9/11 were talking about the "barbarity" of the Islamic religion.

I will admit, I don't watch a lot of TV, least of all fox.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that most westeners haven't been exposed that much to Islam, Matty. It may be as simple as, they don't know enough about it. Yet everyone knows the ins and outs of our own culture, therfore it is much easier to poke fun at ourselves.

GG

Well gg at least gave a decent answer, ill concede that might be true, for example, i slate my own home town, but take issue when someone else from elsewhere does it.

Because there is NO REAL BASIS FOR CRITICIZING THE ENTIRE RELIGION BASED ON A FEW WHACKJOBS.

How is this difficult to understand?

It's common knowledge, Matt, that the "Islam" practiced by Al Qaeda and its followers is not Islam. It's a perversion of the religion, completely twisted to their own ends to justify wholesale slaughter and imposing their own will on a world that doesn't want any of what they're selling.

It's very different when you're discussing things like the Catholic Church's continual slating of homosexuality as a sin, the cover-up by said church of pedophilic and homosexual relations between the clergy and the children they're supposed to be tending the faith to or what whacky story the Scientologists have come up with to bilk you out of your money this time.

Ive never seen TV mock Islam, only report on current events involving them. I was not aware that we went to war against Iraq and Afghanistan because they are muslim countries. I have never heard of a security guard telling someone he was pulled through security "because youre muslim."

Its never openly about Islam, even when it should be, and I think thats the point OP is trying to make.

Clearly you haven't listened to rush/o'rielly/beck/hannity/numerous other talking heads between 2001 and now, bush is on record as are (some) generals stating (incorrectly) that the wars do have religious ideological underpinnings, and you definitely haven't seen someone screened because of their religion but you certainly have because of the color of their skin. They aren't being screened because brown people explode for no reason, they are being screened because of religious ideological extremism from the regions that people of those colors hail from.

Everyone will be polite, or the thread will be closed and persons suspended. Discuss the topic in a polite manner to other posters.

The concept of this thread isn't particularly polite in the first place.

Shaman wrote:Cheer up OP..



Yeah people don't openly bag islam because they react harshly. Any group that reacts harshly and gets all serious and potentially violent gets a false smiles in public and then nasty words after.

Shaman has earned a bonus point... and so did frazz

ShumaGorath wrote:

Ive never seen TV mock Islam, only report on current events involving them. I was not aware that we went to war against Iraq and Afghanistan because they are muslim countries. I have never heard of a security guard telling someone he was pulled through security "because youre muslim."

Its never openly about Islam, even when it should be, and I think thats the point OP is trying to make.

Clearly you haven't listened to rush/o'rielly/beck/hannity/numerous other talking heads between 2001 and now, bush is on record as are (some) generals stating (incorrectly) that the wars do have religious ideological underpinnings, and you definitely haven't seen someone screened because of their religion but you certainly have because of the color of their skin. They aren't being screened because brown people explode for no reason, they are being screened because of religious ideological extremism from the regions that people of those colors hail from.

Actually, I take that back, now that you mention it, I do remember, the summer of 2002, I had a summer job in between 10th and 11th grade.. One of the welders I worked with was listening to Rush on the radio, and he was discussing how people, in particular college age kids, were defending Islamic society, putting them on an equal level with our own. At which point he brought up the treatment of women, female circumcision, being disowned and beaten for daring to dishonor their families by getting raped, etc.

I try not to listen to pundits, theyre all full of gak.

mattyrm wrote:So, what does dakka think the future holds? More wars? What is a likely solution?

As you have pointed out there is an incredible double standard when considering criticism of other world religions and Islam. I can draw no other conclusion than that it is a direct result to the violent and threatening reaction to such criticism. While you do have the occasional abortion doctor shot by a radical Christian, you don't see YouTube videos of heads being sawed off or hear of horrific stabbings in broad daylight like you do from the Islamic side of the street.

Despite apologists to the contrary, there is really only one future for the world and Islam. They want to conquer the world. No really, not in the figurative "I'm going to convince everyone that Islam is best" kind of conquering. The literal kind. A major school of Islam teaches they will dominate the world and others will either convert or be subject to the Muslim. The whole point of dhimmitude is to show submission.

The real answer to the question of what the future holds and what the solution is lies solely in the hands of the mainstream Muslim. If they can get control of their religion and keep it peaceful then they can usher in a new era of world peace and cooperation. If they let radicals continue to steer their faith down a violent path then the future hold another great war. Probably involving nukes. It's that simple.

Matty makes a point. Atheists and liberals around the world poke fun at Christianity and mock it because of a few wack jobs and yet people defend Islam because "not all Muslims are wack jobs."

The simple truth is that as far as the two (Christianity and Islam) are concerned one gets attacked more than the other, even though both should be equally attacked because both have it's share of nut jobs.

Of course we don't dare attack Islam and Muslims because that's considered profiling and stereotyping and heaven forbid we piss off a few middle-easterners. :rolleyes:

Matty and Fateweaver: Confirmation Bias exhibits A and B.

The Green Git wrote:

mattyrm wrote:So, what does dakka think the future holds? More wars? What is a likely solution?

As you have pointed out there is an incredible double standard when considering criticism of other world religions and Islam. I can draw no other conclusion than that it is a direct result to the violent and threatening reaction to such criticism. While you do have the occasional abortion doctor shot by a radical Christian, you don't see YouTube videos of heads being sawed off or hear of horrific stabbings in broad daylight like you do from the Islamic side of the street.

Despite apologists to the contrary, there is really only one future for the world and Islam. They want to conquer the world. No really, not in the figurative "I'm going to convince everyone that Islam is best" kind of conquering. The literal kind. A major school of Islam teaches they will dominate the world and others will either convert or be subject to the Muslim. The whole point of dhimmitude is to show submission.

The real answer to the question of what the future holds and what the solution is lies solely in the hands of the mainstream Muslim. If they can get control of their religion and keep it peaceful then they can usher in a new era of world peace and cooperation. If they let radicals continue to steer their faith down a violent path then the future hold another great war. Probably involving nukes. It's that simple.

That's heretical talk Git. There are no Islamic training camps in the US, there are no suicide bombers that do it in the name of Islam. After all, the official report doesn't mention them. Everything you have been told is a lie. Every Muslim in the world wants to integrate with the US and live amongst us in harmony. No, our President is not a closet Muslim either. Stop with the heresy Git, the men in black will show up at your door otherwise.

As you have pointed out there is an incredible double standard when considering criticism of other world religions and Islam. I can draw no other conclusion than that it is a direct result to the violent and threatening reaction to such criticism. While you do have the occasional abortion doctor shot by a radical Christian, you don't see YouTube videos of heads being sawed off or hear of horrific stabbings in broad daylight like you do from the Islamic side of the street.

Don't pay much attention to africa do you? In Uganda a set of laws that would make gay sex a capitol offense and which are highly supported by the government are working their way into being. But then if you can't see the constant day in and day out criticism of islam that occurs especially in America than I doubt you can see much of anything in reality.

Despite apologists to the contrary, there is really only one future for the world and Islam. They want to conquer the world. No really, not in the figurative "I'm going to convince everyone that Islam is best" kind of conquering. The literal kind. A major school of Islam teaches they will dominate the world and others will either convert or be subject to the Muslim. The whole point of dhimmitude is to show submission.

Realistically there are direct parallels to christianity with these practices.

The real answer to the question of what the future holds and what the solution is lies solely in the hands of the mainstream Muslim. If they can get control of their religion and keep it peaceful then they can usher in a new era of world peace and cooperation. If they let radicals continue to steer their faith down a violent path then the future hold another great war. Probably involving nukes. It's that simple.

The religion hasn't really been steered anywhere. You can't steer religions via minority extremism, all you can do is steer public perception of that religion. Something you seem to have fallen under.

That's heretical talk Git. There are no Islamic training camps in the US, there are no suicide bombers that do it in the name of Islam. After all, the official report doesn't mention them. Everything you have been told is a lie. Every Muslim in the world wants to integrate with the US and live amongst us in harmony. No, our President is not a closet Muslim either. Stop with the heresy Git, the men in black will show up at your door otherwise.

Why do you make up arguments and then argue against them? No one said that. You're making yourself look foolish.

Ahtman wrote:Matty and Fateweaver: Confirmation Bias exhibits A and B.

We are biased because we see the hypocrisy in the situation? Bias is defending Muslims and their religion even with it's nut jobs and yet at the same time slamming Christianity for it's nut jobs.

Fateweaver wrote:Matty makes a point. Atheists and liberals around the world poke fun at Christianity and mock it because of a few wack jobs and yet people defend Islam because "not all Muslims are wack jobs."

The simple truth is that as far as the two (Christianity and Islam) are concerned one gets attacked more than the other, even though both should be equally attacked because both have it's share of nut jobs.

Of course we don't dare attack Islam and Muslims because that's considered profiling and stereotyping and heaven forbid we piss off a few middle-easterners. :rolleyes:

You should probably watch out how you roll those eyes, I think you've GONE BLIND IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE CONSTANT BERATEMENT OF THE ISLAMIC RELIGION THAT HAS OCCURRED FOR A DECADE. You should get that gak checked yo.

Muhammed is srs buisness.

Islam has been negatively depicted and criticized as much as other religions. Durka Durka.

May not seem that way since most of us are Westerners living in predominately Christian societies and if you already don't like religion then you have a much closer issue to deal with...well actually I think an ethnocentric view helps when it comes to "hating on Islam" since most Westerners probably think veils and their fundamentalist views go against how things "should be".

You get in trouble when you start generalizing things since not ALL cops are pigs and not all lawyers are scumbugs...well maybe the latter is true

Fateweaver wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Matty and Fateweaver: Confirmation Bias exhibits A and B.

We are biased because we see the hypocrisy in the situation? Bias is defending Muslims and their religion even with it's nut jobs and yet at the same time slamming Christianity for it's nut jobs.

Confirmation bias (or myside bias[1]) is a tendency for people to prefer information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses, independently of whether they are true.[2][3] People can reinforce their existing attitudes by selectively collecting new evidence, by interpreting evidence in a biased way or by selectively recalling information from memory.[4] Some psychologists use "confirmation bias" for any of these three cognitive biases, while others restrict the term to selective collection of evidence, using assimilation bias for biased interpretation.[5][2]

Actually you're biased because you're wrong but don't care about reality or the facts. You have an opinion and you'll ignore reality and latch onto anything that can make it seem even ephemerally true. Thats what a confirmation bias is. The thing you didn't bother to look up, and didn't know. The thing that you then constructed a false argument against to make yourself somehow seem correct.

The hypocrisy Shuma, like Matty pointed out, is that the ones who attack Christianity, in OUR experience, are the ones who defend Islam.

I have humanitarian and liberal friends who are constantly belittling Christianity but whenever I mention how bad Islam is because of those who would take it to the extreme call me a bigot and close-minded and that I "don't understand".

It boils down to fear of pissing off people in countries who's ass our country is trying to kiss. In all the years South Park has been on the air not ONE episode has been edited or cancelled because of Christ being portrayed as he is and I'm willing to bet Trey and Matt have been threatened (maybe not with physical violence but with lawsuits). Has it changed how they portray Christ? Nope. Yet they get threatened, in a roundabout way, by Islamic extremists and what does CC do? "Oh noes, the sky is falling. Some nut jobs on the internet threatened two of our networks writers so we must edit the show."

How do you not see the hypocritical double-standard? Pissing off millions of Christians (actually 10's of millions) is okay but pissing off a few thousand Islamic extremists from www.nut-jobs.com is forbidden?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Matty and Fateweaver: Confirmation Bias exhibits A and B.

We are biased because we see the hypocrisy in the situation? Bias is defending Muslims and their religion even with it's nut jobs and yet at the same time slamming Christianity for it's nut jobs.

Confirmation bias (or myside bias[1]) is a tendency for people to prefer information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses, independently of whether they are true.[2][3] People can reinforce their existing attitudes by selectively collecting new evidence, by interpreting evidence in a biased way or by selectively recalling information from memory.[4] Some psychologists use "confirmation bias" for any of these three cognitive biases, while others restrict the term to selective collection of evidence, using assimilation bias for biased interpretation.[5][2]

Actually you're biased because you're wrong but don't care about reality or the facts. You have an opinion and you'll ignore reality and latch onto anything that can make it seem even ephemerally true. Thats what a confirmation bias is. The thing you didn't bother to look up, and didn't know. The thing that you then constructed a false argument against to make yourself somehow seem correct.

Like how people slamming on Christianity are conformationally biased. I mean, they only look at information that confirms their preconceptions of Christianity. Right?

I don't know about the rest of the world, but where I live, there's a huge amount of racism for people from the middle-east and more specifically, Musliums. And wasn't the website giving a warning to the writers of South Park, not a threat?

Nice Muslims don't make good news coverage. *Rolls eyes*

Fateweaver wrote:I have humanitarian and liberal friends who are constantly belittling Christianity but whenever I mention how bad Islam is because of those who would take it to the extreme call me a bigot and close-minded and that I "don't understand".

Humanitarian or Humanist?

The humanist friends should dissaprove of Islam as well as Christianity.

The hypocrisy Shuma, like Matty pointed out, is that the ones who attack Christianity, in OUR experience, are the ones who defend Islam.

I don't think anyone cares about your experience here. It's irrelevant.

I have humanitarian and liberal friends who are constantly belittling Christianity but whenever I mention how bad Islam is because of those who would take it to the extreme call me a bigot and close-minded and that I "don't understand".

Cool.

It boils down to fear of pissing off people in countries who's ass our country is trying to kiss. In all the years South Park has been on the air not ONE episode has been edited or cancelled because of Christ being portrayed as he is and I'm willing to bet Trey and Matt have been threatened (maybe not with physical violence but with lawsuits).

Irrelevant.

Has it changed how they portray Christ? Nope. Yet they get threatened, in a roundabout way, by Islamic extremists and what does CC do? "Oh noes, the sky is falling. Some nut jobs on the internet threatened two of our networks writers so we must edit the show."

Yeah, family guy did it too. The point is still irrelevant.

How do you not see the hypocritical double-standard? Pissing off millions of Christians (actually 10's of millions) is okay but pissing off a few thousand Islamic extremists from www.nut-jobs.com is forbidden?

Well we aren't actively trying to stem resurgent christian militant extremism. Comedy central was attempting to avoid international issues similar to those of the danish cartoon issues and it clearly took the threat as legitimate as it pulled the episode. Comedy central is a television channel, not the fething u.s. government, it determines it's own course of action in regards to when some of it's top writers receive death threats. It's not a double standard because there is no standard. You just take offense to the fact that it's not fair in your mind. Well guess what, it doesn't matter in the slightest. Currently militant islam is the issue of the day, not militant christianity. So thats what we fething deal with. Your friends double standard isn't my or anyone elses problem, and no one cares.

Not to slap on any organised religion. (even though I think they're all stupid) However, here's a nice little tidbit for you.

Working here in the jail, there are lots of guys who "find" religion. Now this is for obvious reasons that we wont bother with.

Most of the calmer/nicer inmates seem to gravitate toward christianity, reading the bible and holding prayer time in the block.

There are an equal amount of Inmates finding religion in the Kouran.
Most of these guys, almost without exception are the most hateful, authority chafing, and haterz of "the man" there are. BTW, I've not met nor searched a single inmate who was over say...35...with a Kouran bible in his property. Its always the young punks, gangers or prime A-holes.

Yea, I'm sure this religion is on the up-and-up and not any more hateful than others.

Wake up.


BTW the Kouran teaches to kill the jew, and cut off the head of the infidel...sounds like a peaceful religion to me.

the holy bible-do not judge lest ye be judged.

Like how people slamming on Christianity are conformationally biased. I mean, they only look at information that confirms their preconceptions of Christianity. Right?

You do realize that by selectively choosing arguments to argue against, and then constructing fake arguments that no one ever made around those statements you're actually actively engaged in selective confirmation bias. You're just proving the point made about you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:Not to slap on any organised religion. (even though I think they're all stupid) However, here's a nice little tidbit for you.

Working here in the jail, there are lots of guys who "find" religion. Now this is for obvious reasons that we wont bother with.

Most of the calmer/nicer inmates seem to gravitate toward christianity, reading the bible and holding prayer time in the block.

There are an equal amount of Inmates finding religion in the Kouran.
Most of these guys, almost without exception are the most hateful, authority chafing, and haterz of "the man" there are. BTW, I've not met nor searched a single inmate who was over say...35...with a Kouran bible in his property. Its always the young punks, gangers or prime A-holes.

Yea, I'm sure this religion is on the up-and-up and not any more hateful than others.

Wake up.

Yeah, I'm sure prison inmates are an AMAZING sample by which to draw your opinions here.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure prison inmates are an AMAZING sample by which to draw your opinions here.

Well then shuma, you explain to ME why model and older inmates are the ones that gravitate toward christianity and the more violent or authority chafing ones go to the Kouran.

Its a group of people, I dont see why an example cannot be seen here of the sort of people that either religion attracts. Doubly so due to the frequency that incarcerated persons go to find comfort in religion.

I think it serves as an example to determine the sort of person attracted to either religion.

Id say a prison an amazing place to draw conclusions on which religion violent criminals gravitate towards.