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Wow... Look's like i shouldn't be here.

*Hides Quran, AK-47, and Grenade Launcher*

First off, to those who say Islam has been getting a free pass when it comes to not being Discriminated against, I want to say, "Are you blind deaf and dumb!?!" American Dad, Team America Movie, Family Guy, South Park, Fox, Savage/Levin/Haniity/Beck, Anne Coulter, Bob Horowitz, Geert Wilders, Billy Graham and His son, Jerry Falman (I think vthat's his name) have all given Islam ALOT of Flak, flame, and bigoted, untrue stereotyping. So Matt, I think you need to step out of that rock you've been living in, because for the past 10 years, Islam has been prime hunting game when it comes to bashing/flaming.

Are you guys really that ignorant to think that al-Quaeda, Taliban, Hizbi-Islami, represent the entirety of Islam? Do you really think that whenever Osama Bin Laden Sends a message, every Mosque in the world broadcasts it during Jumaa prayer? Well, hate to burst your Bigoted bubble, but you are DEAD wrong.

Matt, Fateweaver, I want to know, have you ever even READ a Quran?

Have you ever read any Islamic books, like by Ahmed Dedaat?

Have you ever even SPOKEN to a muslim Shiekh? Or ever even spoken to a muslim period?

I doubt you even look online for info about Islam.

How do you know what you say is true? I can garuntee that Deadshane1's statement that, "the Koran teaches muslims to kill the Jews and behead the infidel."

WTF kind of crap is that?

Islam is a very tolerant religion. The quran itself states that "there is no compulsion in religion", and here is a Surah devoted to that:

Suraat al Kafiroon (The Unbelievers)

Oh those who do not believe!

I do not worship what you worship

You do not worship what I worship

And I will never vworship what you worship

And you will never worship what I worship

Go your way, and I shall go mine.

^ is a good example of islam's tolerance.

Deadshane1 wrote:"When can we acceptably start getting angry at Islam?"

I'd say (since I must be an infidel) it was about the time that the Kouran suggested it was ok to cut my friggin' head off.

See, I rather prefer my head attached to my body.

I.E. Screw that barbaric religion....in the goat butt.

You know, bigoted statements like that, don't prove your point. Actually, they show how incredibly ignorant you are.

Matt says, When should we be angry with Islam? When should I b angry with christians? I should hate vall christians because of the Christian Identity movement (A white supremecist Christian oraginzation)? Should the inquisition, or the crusades have pissed me off? I should obviously be angry at all christian, because that group represents ALL of christianity, doesn't it?

matt and fate are under the assumption that all muslims, (now remember, there's 1.5 BILLION of them) act and think likev one person. They don't, they all have different beliefs, though the core beliefs are the same: That God (or Allah, or Jehovah, or Yahweh) is one and Muhammad is the his last prophet.

And yes, some people in the middle east don't really like the west. Why? well, since I spent a good 13 months there, I know. They feel the west doesn't care about them. They see the as constantly acting so condensending toward them, that all they want is their oil. There is a saying that goes, "No one cared about the middle east before they found oil, and no one will care when they run out"

I spent a year going back and forth between Jerusalem and Amman, the Capital of Jordan. People are poor, and alot aren't educated. So poor uneducated people, who don't know, easliy can hate. And terrorsits take advantage of that. THey vexploit a few fears and turn it into a roaring fire of hate, fueled by a perversion of a tolerant religion.

So Fate, Shane, Matt, and anyone else, get your facts straight before you criticise my religion.

holy crap, ask and you shall recieve!

I didn't ask for a windstorm.

Sorry, I'll continue to be biased so long as the nut jobs practicing Islam keep blowing up or attempting to blow up skyscrapers and towers and setting off bombs in Times Square.

Thank you and good day.

isthatmycow wrote:

Islam is a very tolerant religion.

Then how do you explain that LONG post that I made last page?

Tolerant religion....riiiggghhhtt. I'm not buying what you're selling. However, its your religion so I suppose you're obligated to support it. Maybe you should know some of the passages of your own bible.


"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

Sounds tolerant to me.

Then how do you explain that LONG post that I made last page?

I could do one of those for christianity if you like. Bhuddism as well (Did you know that collected bhuddist writ is almost 20 times as long as all the combined biblical texts?). I could definitly do it for judaism, some of the stuff in the old testament is just ridiculous. It would be all to easy to do it for hindu.

It proves absolutely the feth nothing.

"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

That sounds like a call to proselytize, not a call to violence. That is unless you have a totally different definition for the words stern or strive than the ones everyone else uses.

Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.

I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.

So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.

Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.

I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.

So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.

Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.

Funny, I went through Confirmation and went to church every Sunday from infant to HS and I don't recall the Bible containing phrases anywhere near that.

"Don't worship false idols."
"Do unto others as they would do unto you."
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."


Yep, those certainly do compare to the passages Deadshane posted. Eye roll.

ShumaGorath wrote:
I could do one of those for christianity if you like.

Old Testement perhaps...I doubt you could do that well in the New, you know, were Jesus teaches ACTUAL tolerance and love?

...and not the "I want to cut your head off, but I'll be tolerant of you" brand of tolerance.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.

I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.

So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.

Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.

Unless Dead is quoting from a different Quran he cited several passages that stated infidels and non-believers should be killed. We had isthatmycow defend his religion and say it's tolerant. I pointed out the irony of his religions view of tolerance.

How again is that making stuff up?

Deadshane1 wrote:

isthatmycow wrote:

Islam is a very tolerant religion.

Then how do you explain that LONG post that I made last page?

Tolerant religion....riiiggghhhtt. I'm not buying what you're selling. However, its your religion so I suppose you're obligated to support it. Maybe you should know some of the passages of your own bible.


"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

Sounds tolerant to me.

As you may well know by now I am no moslem but I must give isthatmycow some support for coming here. It gets heated enough defending Chritianity, and I am not not alone. Got a Moslem who wants to defend his corner, lets give him standing room.

Your one liner comments were unfair asn many verses need to be read in context. This is especially true of the Koran, wherin a proper recital is usually of a minimum length. Chritians may use a lot of one liner quotes, not normally the very nice ones and those that can be understood within the length of the sentence.

All of the Judaic religions have some hard stuff in them, and it requires interpretation. a lot of fighting talk is about fighting sin or fighting a spiritual fight. The Epistles talks about putting on the Armour of God and making a stand in the fight, this is NOT a call to arms, it's a call to prayer.

You need context.

Orlanth wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

isthatmycow wrote:

Islam is a very tolerant religion.

Then how do you explain that LONG post that I made last page?

Tolerant religion....riiiggghhhtt. I'm not buying what you're selling. However, its your religion so I suppose you're obligated to support it. Maybe you should know some of the passages of your own bible.


"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

Sounds tolerant to me.

As you may well know by now I am no moslem but I must give isthatmycow some support for coming here. It gets heated enough defending Chritianity, and I am not not alone. Got a Moslem who wants to defend his corner, lets give him standing room.

Your one liner comments were unfair asn many verses need to be read in context. This is especially true of the Koran, wherin a proper recital is usually of a minimum length. Chritians may use a lot of one liner quotes, not normally the very nice ones and those that can be understood within the length of the sentence.

All of the Judaic religions have some hard stuff in them, and it requires interpretation. a lot of fighting talk is about fighting sin or fighting a spiritual fight. The Epistles talks about putting on the Armour of God and making a stand in the fight, this is NOT a call to arms, it's a call to prayer.

You need context.

I guess we're taking the Quran WAY out of context then....havent seen any other religion ever taken so out of context before. You know with so many passages about killing, infidels, putting people to the sword and such.

I'd like to see such an "out of context" list be made out of the New Testement. Do so and I'll eat some crow.

Fateweaver wrote:
Unless Dead is quoting from a different Quran he cited several passages that stated infidels and non-believers should be killed. We had isthatmycow defend his religion and say it's tolerant. I pointed out the irony of his religions view of tolerance.

How again is that making stuff up?

English translations of Arabic are notoriously wonky, and almost always heavily politicized. In general, unless you can read Arabic, its a good idea not to accept any one translation of the Koran, which is especially difficult to translate. That in and of itself points towards a tendency of 'making stuff up'.

Additionally, you're pointing to a religion as a though it were a monolith, which is stupid. Do all Christians believe that the earthquake in Haiti was caused by a deal with the devil, as Pat Roberston stated? Do all Christians believe that its acceptable to murder abortion clinic doctors, or set fire to the clinics themselves, as several have done or attempted to do? Of course not, and it would be ludicrous to draw that conclusion.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Old Testement perhaps...I doubt you could do that well in the New, you know, were Jesus teaches ACTUAL tolerance and love?

Matthew 10:34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

He throws the money-changers out of the temple. He commands you to leave your family behind and let the dead bury the dead. And most importantly, he tells you to follow the Old Testament laws (which is often white-washed since they are inconvenient).

Christianity has it's share of calls to violence. Both religions share a common root, so it's to be expected to some degree. What members of a faith practice can differ significantly from their holy texts. Muslim faiths feature a heavy balance of tradition as part of their teachings, making them more akin to Catholics than Protestant Christians.

IceRaptor wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
Old Testement perhaps...I doubt you could do that well in the New, you know, were Jesus teaches ACTUAL tolerance and love?

Matthew 10:34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

He throws the money-changers out of the temple. He commands you to leave your family behind and let the dead bury the dead. And most importantly, he tells you to follow the Old Testament laws (which is often white-washed since they are inconvenient).

Well, thats three against the...how many did I post? Keep going and we'll see which text is more hateful and intolerant...and which promotes peace and nonviolence.
Christianity has it's share of calls to violence. Both religions share a common root, so it's to be expected to some degree. What members of a faith practice can differ significantly from their holy texts. Muslim faiths feature a heavy balance of tradition as part of their teachings, making them more akin to Catholics than Protestant Christians.

@Deadshane

An obviously biased source is http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html. Make of it what you will.

Fateweaver wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.

I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.

So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.

Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.

Unless Dead is quoting from a different Quran he cited several passages that stated infidels and non-believers should be killed. We had isthatmycow defend his religion and say it's tolerant. I pointed out the irony of his religions view of tolerance.

How again is that making stuff up?

It's making things up because the quote didn't say that.

"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

That does not say "kill unbelievers". It says strive against them. This can mean argue with them to change their minds, divert them from their wicked path, and save them from Hell.

That's a different interpretation. I'm no Koranic scholar so I will not presume to say whether mine or Fateweaver/DeadShane's is correct.

However it is clear that the words do not say "kill people".

I was refering to the wall of txt that deadshane posted.

Several passages elude to killing non-believers.

I don't recall quoting that passage in my rebuttal.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.

I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.

So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.

Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.

Unless Dead is quoting from a different Quran he cited several passages that stated infidels and non-believers should be killed. We had isthatmycow defend his religion and say it's tolerant. I pointed out the irony of his religions view of tolerance.

How again is that making stuff up?

It's making things up because the quote didn't say that.

"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

That does not say "kill unbelievers". It says strive against them. This can mean argue with them to change their minds, divert them from their wicked path, and save them from Hell.

That's a different interpretation. I'm no Koranic scholar so I will not presume to say whether mine or Fateweaver/DeadShane's is correct.

However it is clear that the words do not say "kill people".

Perhaps you prefer this one...

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Or

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.



Yea, nice. Tolerant too!

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.

I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.

So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.

Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.

You might disgaree with his argument, but rebut it, politely. He's not being insulting to you in that post.

Deadshane1 wrote:
I guess we're taking the Quran WAY out of context then....havent seen any other religion ever taken so out of context before. You know with so many passages about killing, infidels, putting people to the sword and such.

I'd like to see such an "out of context" list be made out of the New Testement. Do so and I'll eat some crow.

Matthew 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.

For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;

and one's enemies will be those of his household."

Attributed to Jesus himself, no less. Apparently Jesus advocated fratricide, matricide, patricide, and perhaps even infanticide. Of course, that's not what this passage really means, but there you have it.

Luke 19:26-27
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" .

Also attributed to Jesus.

I can look up some others if you like, but those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head.

I think im gonna try and bust out another 80 pages of the Quran when I get home. Hopefully the thread will still be active tomorrow, maybe I can add something useful.

Frazzled wrote:Further everyone needs to take it down a notch. You can have a discussion without going all monkey flinging poo like.

OT, but damn that was funny.

dogma wrote: Luke 19:26-27
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" .

Also attributed to Jesus.

I can look up some others if you like, but those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head.

Ooh, wow, how did THAT one stay hidden from me all this time?

dogma wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
I guess we're taking the Quran WAY out of context then....havent seen any other religion ever taken so out of context before. You know with so many passages about killing, infidels, putting people to the sword and such.

I'd like to see such an "out of context" list be made out of the New Testement. Do so and I'll eat some crow.

Matthew 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.

For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;

and one's enemies will be those of his household."

Attributed to Jesus himself, no less. Apparently Jesus advocated fratricide, matricide, patricide, and perhaps even infanticide. Of course, that's not what this passage really means, but there you have it.

Luke 19:26-27
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" .

Also attributed to Jesus.

I can look up some others if you like, but those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head.

So far that's 5 passages against my "Wall of Hatred and Intolerance"....keep going. So far the Quran is BY FAR the more hateful Tome.

Small wonder that it is preferred by the more hateful and authority chafing inmates in jail IMHO.

This thread has been reported and I am watching it, but will try to keep open if people remain civil.

Frazzled wrote:This thread has been reported and I am watching it, but will try to keep open if people remain civil.

I'll be civil to everyone BUT the Quran....since I believe that its a fairly barbaric "modern" religion in its text.

Like I said, I'm prolly an infidel, but I prefer my head where its at.

Dang Shane, back down buddy, you made your point, on paper Islam is the big bully and christianity is the little bully. Let someone else have a go.

Deadshane1 wrote:
So far that's 5 passages against my "Wall of Hatred and Intolerance"....keep going. So far the Quran is BY FAR the more hateful Tome.

Small wonder that it is preferred by the more hateful and authority chafing inmates in jail IMHO.

I'm actually itemizing and refuting that post right now, if this thread gets closed before I'm done, I'll post it in a separate thread. In any case, I know where you lifted that wondrous little list from, so I doubt that you read the entirety of it.



Link

Falconlance wrote:Dang Shane, back down buddy, you made your point, on paper Islam is the big bully and christianity is the little bully. Let someone else have a go.

Nope....I love bein' right! (...and making fun of organised religion!)