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Prison inmates are more of the "real world example" than happy go lucky, middle class douche bags who are getting their way paid for in life.

Prisoners have a lot less media and tv influence than those of us not part of the prison system. I'm willing to bet prisoners are more capable of making their own decisions than Bunny or Sean, the spoiled UC Berkeley grads.

Cane wrote:Islam has been negatively depicted and criticized as much as other religions. Durka Durka.

Yes, but other religions don't go around sawing off heads, murdering artists on their front porches and declaring jihad on Salman Rushdie.

The point is not that Islam doesn't get criticized... it's how Islam responds when it does.

"When can we acceptably start getting angry at Islam?"

I'd say (since I must be an infidel) it was about the time that the Kouran suggested it was ok to cut my friggin' head off.

See, I rather prefer my head attached to my body.

I.E. Screw that barbaric religion....in the goat butt.

Well then shuma, you explain to ME why model and older inmates are the ones that gravitate toward christianity and the more violent or authority chafing ones go to the Kouran.

Modern social acceptance of americas founding religion vs the adoption of a religion that has had militant underpinnings politically in the prison and gang systems since malcom x's time? You're blaming a religion for a societal issue, Islam was proselytized to the more militant african american population for decades and it still has strong ties within areas of minority black criminal uptake. Due to the history of the civil rights struggle and the ensuing issues it has a history of identification with rebellious youthful identities in black (And modernly eastern) culture.

Id say a prison an amazing place to draw conclusions on which religion violent criminals gravitate towards.

Not particularly. It's heavily dependent on the prison population. I would imagine that prisons with high percentages of latin american criminals would gravitate towards christianity. It's actually just a bad place to draw this kind of conclusion at all, since it's intrinsically linked to the inmates themselves.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Not to slap on any organised religion. (even though I think they're all stupid) However, here's a nice little tidbit for you.

Working here in the jail, there are lots of guys who "find" religion. Now this is for obvious reasons that we wont bother with.

Most of the calmer/nicer inmates seem to gravitate toward christianity, reading the bible and holding prayer time in the block.

There are an equal amount of Inmates finding religion in the Kouran.
Most of these guys, almost without exception are the most hateful, authority chafing, and haterz of "the man" there are. BTW, I've not met nor searched a single inmate who was over say...35...with a Kouran bible in his property. Its always the young punks, gangers or prime A-holes.

Yea, I'm sure this religion is on the up-and-up and not any more hateful than others.

Wake up.

Yeah, I'm sure prison inmates are an AMAZING sample by which to draw your opinions here.

This thread is not going to be a bastion of logic Shuma... You are certainly aware of that.

Useless anecdotal information, simply used to reinforce ideas that are flamed on by the mainstream media (the one that has been feeding this abstract nonsense for years now), doesn't amount to jack-gak. A prison guard who doesn't like inmates, and dislikes the more violent ones even more?

UTTERLY SHOCKING...

Aye calm down lads, no need to get so heated, neither of you blokes are muslims are you?

Thats all my point is, im obviously not saying all or even most muslims are bad people, im saying that to me it seems like the religion is not criticized as much as others, speicifically Chrsitianity, and when i say it is down to fear, people dispute it, but what else would it be?

It seems that people know they can mock Christianity safely, but not Islam, and that speaks volumes for said Religion and leads me to claim that one Religion is less barbed than the other. I have disdain for all mono theisms, but at least the X-tians can take a question civily.

I guess another question would be, why the hell cant Islam take a joke, when Christianity can?

The Green Git wrote:

Cane wrote:Islam has been negatively depicted and criticized as much as other religions. Durka Durka.

Yes, but other religions don't go around sawing off heads, murdering artists on their front porches and declaring jihad on Salman Rushdie.

The point is not that Islam doesn't get criticized... it's how Islam responds when it does.

This post has been edited. Further attacks on another poster will result in displinary meaures.

Prison inmates are more of the "real world example" than happy go lucky, middle class douche bags who are getting their way paid for in life.

Prisoners have a lot less media and tv influence than those of us not part of the prison system. I'm willing to bet prisoners are more capable of making their own decisions than Bunny or Sean, the spoiled UC Berkeley grads.

Yes, decisions like the ones that landed them in prison. You know, where they aren't allowed to make decisions about when to go to bed or when to eat. Are you high?

Strife ridden third world....

American prison system....

Sounds pretty close to the same type of people to me. Maybe you'd invite these people to your pool party...I wouldnt.

mattyrm wrote:Aye calm down lads, no need to get so heated, neither of you blokes are muslims are you?

Thats all my point is, im obviously not saying all or even most muslims are bad people, im saying that to me it seems like the religion is not criticized as much as others, speicifically Chrsitianity, and when i say it is down to fear, people dispute it, but what else would it be?

It seems that people know they can mock Christianity safely, but not Islam, and that speaks volumes for said Religion and leads me to claim that one Religion is less barbed than the other. I have disdain for all mono theisms, but at least the X-tians can take a question civily.

I guess another question would be, why the hell cant Islam take a joke, when Christianity can?

I don't know...

Why don't you ask Islam, like the individual person you set it up to be? Why not follow what CNN, FOXnews, etc... tells you? You are simply ignoring the fact that violence stems from all religions, because there are PEOPLE in them. Some of those people happen to be crazy, but all religions have a few handfuls of these crazies. Ignoring that the MM is focusing on Islam, simply promotes a reliance on the MM, to make your decisions for you.

Deadshane1 wrote:"When can we acceptably start getting angry at Islam?"

I'd say (since I must be an infidel) it was about the time that the Kouran suggested it was ok to cut my friggin' head off.

See, I rather prefer my head attached to my body.

I.E. Screw that barbaric religion....in the goat butt.

Where the feth does it say in the Koran that it's acceptable in everyday life to cut someone's head off?

Oh right. It doesn't.

As for why Christianity gets bashed more than Islam?

Your mainstream Muslims aren't protesting gay marriages, firebombing/shooting up churches of their own faith but with a different color skin of the members, the religious leaders aren't officially covering up sexual abuse of small children by the priesthood(and in some cases, actively blocking law enforcement from prosecuting such cases), or having a faction that believes that doctors performing legitimate medical procedures(crazy huh? Abortions are legit procedures, and in some cases--completely necessary or acceptable by mainstream society) being murdered is okay.

Well, if people are pissing in their Cheerios they brought it upon themselves. The larger terrorists groups control the country and/or the countries military. They have the power to change it.

It's not the 12yo child blowing up cars because his home life sucks. It's the militant government organizations that are blowing gak up. Their country is gakky because they'd rather blame the world for their misgivings than fix their own damn problem, which they have the power to do.

mattyrm wrote:Aye calm down lads, no need to get so heated, neither of you blokes are muslims are you?

Thats all my point is, im obviously not saying all or even most muslims are bad people, im saying that to me it seems like the religion is not criticized as much as others, speicifically Chrsitianity, and when i say it is down to fear, people dispute it, but what else would it be?

It seems that people know they can mock Christianity safely, but not Islam, and that speaks volumes for said Religion and leads me to claim that one Religion is less barbed than the other. I have disdain for all mono theisms, but at least the X-tians can take a question civily.

I guess another question would be, why the hell cant Islam take a joke, when Christianity can?

I think you're just really bad at drawing logical conclusions. Christianity and Islam are both dogs. Christianity has spent its whole life getting pet, living in posh places, sleeping on nice pillows, and eating the expensive food. Islam lives outside, it gets beaten constantly, it has to fight for the food it gets, and and the junkyard it lives in is pretty cold. I wonder which dog is more likely to bite?

You're looking at the people for the religion and not the religion for the people. Islam is majority found in gakky countries, with poor governments and poor economies. Christianity is not. They're both just books that say almost the exact same gak. One book is popular in a nice part of the world, the other is popular in a not so nice part. Draw conclusions from there, don't just fabricate some sort of myth about an evil religion. Religions are just groups of people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:Well, if people are pissing in their Cheerios they brought it upon themselves. The larger terrorists groups control the country and/or the countries military. They have the power to change it.

It's not the 12yo child blowing up cars because his home life sucks. It's the militant government organizations that are blowing gak up. Their country is gakky because they'd rather blame the world for their misgivings than fix their own damn problem, which they have the power to do.

You do realize that afghanistan is a tiny fraction of the total muslim population? Wait. No you don't. Selective bias.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:Strife ridden third world....

American prison system....

Sounds pretty close to the same type of people to me. Maybe you'd invite these people to your pool party...I wouldnt.

If those sound like the same people than I think we're done here. You clearly aren't worth attempting to hash this out with.







I'm done here. This threads just a whining ground for the incredibly ignorant so that they can talk about how christianity is somehow getting the short end of the stick in america (YOU KNOW WHY YOU SEE MORE PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT CHRISTIANS? BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN AMERICA AND EUROPE ARE CHRISTIAN).

Kanluwen wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:"When can we acceptably start getting angry at Islam?"

I'd say (since I must be an infidel) it was about the time that the Kouran suggested it was ok to cut my friggin' head off.

See, I rather prefer my head attached to my body.

I.E. Screw that barbaric religion....in the goat butt.

Where the feth does it say in the Koran that it's acceptable in everyday life to cut someone's head off?

Oh right. It doesn't.

As for why Christianity gets bashed more than Islam?

Your mainstream Muslims aren't protesting gay marriages, firebombing/shooting up churches of their own faith but with a different color skin of the members, the religious leaders aren't officially covering up sexual abuse of small children by the priesthood(and in some cases, actively blocking law enforcement from prosecuting such cases), or having a faction that believes that doctors performing legitimate medical procedures(crazy huh? Abortions are legit procedures, and in some cases--completely necessary or acceptable by mainstream society) being murdered is okay.

Hmm. So it's still okay to slam Christianity because a few dozen doctors are killed each year for doing abortions and that Christians protest gay marriage peacefully but Islam should be left alone because apparently 9/11 and the near disaster that was the pants bomber, the shoe bomber and now the failed Times Square bomb are somehow "less" significant?

I hope you aren't implying that but that is the tone I'm getting from you. That it's okay to slam Christians because they hate gays but we have no room to slam Islamists even though they apparently hate the West.

Peaceful Religion? Have at you....

Golden rule of islam is, " If you deliver infidels to Allah, Allah will deliver houries to you".

Thus the only pillar of islam is killing and delivering infidels to Allah or in other words, carrying out violent Jihad against all infidel unless they submit to Islam. That is what our prophet Mo preached and practiced and that is what our greatest scholars preached.

Greatest muslim scholars of recent times were Syed Qutub, Dr. Salah Serea and Mohammed Abed Al-Salem. They all preached Violent Jihad and the golden rule of islam.


"Demolish all governments and organizations that are established by man. The return of Allah's kingdom can only be established with a sword. Absolute rebellion is a must against anything on earth that conflicts with islam and to destroy it with great power".

9.38: Believers, What is the matter with you, when you are asked to go forth and fight for Allah's cause you cling to the earth? Unless you fight, Allah will punish you with a painful doom

ShumaGorath wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Aye calm down lads, no need to get so heated, neither of you blokes are muslims are you?

Thats all my point is, im obviously not saying all or even most muslims are bad people, im saying that to me it seems like the religion is not criticized as much as others, speicifically Chrsitianity, and when i say it is down to fear, people dispute it, but what else would it be?

It seems that people know they can mock Christianity safely, but not Islam, and that speaks volumes for said Religion and leads me to claim that one Religion is less barbed than the other. I have disdain for all mono theisms, but at least the X-tians can take a question civily.

I guess another question would be, why the hell cant Islam take a joke, when Christianity can?

I think you're just really bad at drawing logical conclusions. Christianity and Islam are both dogs. Christianity has spent its whole life getting pet, living in posh places, sleeping on nice pillows, and eating the expensive food. Islam lives outside, it gets beaten constantly, it has to fight for the food it gets, and and the junkyard it lives in is pretty cold. I wonder which dog is more likely to bite?

You're looking at the people for the religion and not the religion for the people. Islam is majority found in gakky countries, with poor governments and poor economies. Christianity is not. They're both just books that say almost the exact same gak. One book is popular in a nice part of the world, the other is popular in a not so nice part. Draw conclusions from there, don't just fabricate some sort of myth about an evil religion. Religions are just groups of people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:Well, if people are pissing in their Cheerios they brought it upon themselves. The larger terrorists groups control the country and/or the countries military. They have the power to change it.

It's not the 12yo child blowing up cars because his home life sucks. It's the militant government organizations that are blowing gak up. Their country is gakky because they'd rather blame the world for their misgivings than fix their own damn problem, which they have the power to do.

You do realize that afghanistan is a tiny fraction of the total muslim population? Wait. No you don't. Selective bias.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:Strife ridden third world....

American prison system....

Sounds pretty close to the same type of people to me. Maybe you'd invite these people to your pool party...I wouldnt.

If those sound like the same people than I think we're done here. You clearly aren't worth attempting to hash this out with.







I'm done here. This threads just a whining ground for the incredibly ignorant so that they can talk about how christianity is somehow getting the short end of the stick in america (YOU KNOW WHY YOU SEE MORE PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT CHRISTIANS? BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN AMERICA AND EUROPE ARE CHRISTIAN).

It's selectively biased to believe all Christians are hate-mongers.

Your point being?

Shuma wrote:I think you're just really bad at drawing logical conclusions. Christianity and Islam are both dogs. Christianity has spent its whole life getting pet, living in posh places, sleeping on nice pillows, and eating the expensive food. Islam lives outside, it gets beaten constantly, it has to fight for the food it gets, and and the junkyard it lives in is pretty cold. I wonder which dog is more likely to bite?

You're looking at the people for the religion and not the religion for the people. Islam is majority found in gakky countries, with poor governments and poor economies. Christianity is not. They're both just books that say almost the exact same gak. One book is popular in a nice part of the world, the other is popular in a not so nice part. Draw conclusions from there, don't just fabricate some sort of myth about an evil religion. Religions are just groups of people.

The power of nightmares...

This series is not specifically about Islam, as it actually provides a basis for it's accusations, and does not target anyone but those involved.

It is well worth watching, and I don't assume that it has every fact right, just that it really studies a big part of the problem we are currently discussing.

Again though, this thread is not going to be a monument to logic... Watch the doco though, it's worth it, and it has a lot to do with what we are discussing.

Not pointed at Shuma BTW, but the thread in it's entirety.

Again...peaceful religion at work...

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.



Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.



Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.



Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).



Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?



Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.



Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" From the historical context we know that the "persecution" spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah."



Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.



Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."



Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.



Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.




Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).




Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.



Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."




Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."



Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."



Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"



Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.



Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"



Qur'an (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"



Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?



Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.



Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed!



Qur'an (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.



Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.



From the Hadith:



Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."



Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.



Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'



Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah



Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."



Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"



Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"



Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."



Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.



Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.



Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”



Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.



Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who was it that suggested that the Quran doesnt advocate the slayings of Infidels?

You were saying?

It's selectively biased to believe all Christians are hate-mongers.

Your point being?

Confirmation bias (or myside bias[1]) is a tendency for people to prefer information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses, independently of whether they are true.[2][3] People can reinforce their existing attitudes by selectively collecting new evidence, by interpreting evidence in a biased way or by selectively recalling information from memory.[4] Some psychologists use "confirmation bias" for any of these three cognitive biases, while others restrict the term to selective collection of evidence, using assimilation bias for biased interpretation.[5][2]

Are you seriously doing this gak on purpose? Or do you really not realize that you're doing it?

And Fate:
Peaceful protests against gay marriage? Hahahahahaha. Sorry there sweetheart, but when the idea of a "peaceful" protest is carrying signs saying "FAGS BURN IN HELL" or "YOU'RE WHY GOD HATES AMERICA" is no fething way peaceful.

Also, Deadshane?
Christianity is not one to be casting stones about stupid people and their statements.

Or hey, how about Haiti just asking for that earthquake or New Orleans offending God?

Apparently "do unto others as they would do unto you" somehow equates to "kill the infidels and all those who would disbelieve in Allah".

?

Modquisition on. Final warning. Posts disparaging other posts will lead to disciplinary proceedings from this point forward. All are advised as such.

Further everyone needs to take it down a notch. You can have a discussion without going all monkey flinging poo like.

Fateweaver wrote:Apparently "do unto others as they would do unto you" somehow equates to "kill the infidels and all those who would disbelieve in Allah".

?

My head asplode.

mattyrm wrote:
Now, im tired of people making excuses for Islam.

Me too, but let us not dig at Islam, that would be very unfair. Dig at violent Islamic Fundamentalists, and only those who preach violence.

mattyrm wrote:
We slate Mormons, Scientologists, Christianity et all in hearty doses, the Catholic church certainly gets an enormous amount of flak, Madonna gets up on stage and depicts herself in some sort of obscene crucifiction skit for example, but nobody gets killed.

its a matter of power projection. It all comes down to how and if the religious community being lampooned responds. Some pointers:

South Park is very irreverent and its creators do not care about that. They mock Jesus directly with impunity. This is not on. While mocking a faith is one thing, mocking a religious icon is not. Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Allah etc should all be off limits preisnts and followers and the odd thngs we/they do are fair.

They also mocked Scientiology, but not with impunity. Scientologists did not take this lying down, they seldom do, and while attacking South Park cost them a lot of their rapidly dwindling credibility it was at least partly successful.

Taking on Islam is in fact rather dumb, because they will not back down, but they are not alone. Taking on Judiasm is even worse mistake, because you will very quickly and successfully get labelled anti-semitic and all sorts of gak can rain down.

Christians will largely grin and bear it, in fact it helps when they do not as those who don't are usually laughably bad at complaining, as will most Buddhists though I rarely see anything anti-buddhist in the western media. Hindus, Jews and Moslems can get very shirty though the Jews tend to react to insult in round about ways. For examples of that look at the Jewish reactions to Mel Gibsons film The Passion of the Christ. that was attacked with money lawyers and delays and 'bumps within Hollywood. Four years ago there were Hindu riots in Birmingham on account of a new play.

As for Islam remember the cartoon images in the Dutch press which caused a stir, they were banned in the UK. The only nation to actually go as far as to ban them, quite contrary to the government view on similar comments on other faiths including Christianity. The cartoons that causes a stir were in fact very tame, you would see similar ones very frequently in Private Eye or in the funnies of the newspapers. it is hard to take offense at them, but Islam has grown a privileged position where it can afford to have no sense of humour.

This is what Rowan Atkinson was complaining about regarding a new law restricting lampooning of religion and campaigning for the bill to be scrapped. He said that much of this routine would disappear if he could not lampoon priests he has a point, but also missed the point. The government had to make the legislation appear blanket, even though it is still not applied in the effect of lampooning Christian priests and likely never will the laws restricting lampooning of religion are there for Jews Hindus and especially for Moslems. I was wondering if Rowan Atkinson would like to play a game of 'Rowan roulette', whereupon he was given a live mike, unrestricted recording, and six jokes in envelopes, five containing hardened jokes mocking Christianity, and one equally hardened joke which profaned Islam. How many would he dare open? Atkinson is a clever man, not least because he knows what he can get away with, I have seen plenty of his anti christian sketches and caticatures in numerous works, and he does a very funny job. I am yet to see him ever lampoon Judaism or Islam or a follower of such.

legoburner wrote:You think stuff is crazy now, just wait until a red cow is born! Basically it is the prerequisite to building the third temple in Jerusalem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Heifer

There are multiple groups around the world trying to breed a perfect red cow just for this purpose. All past attempts ended up getting a few blemishes as the cow grew older.

To quote from the wiki article and temple article:

Some Christians believe that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ cannot occur until the Third Temple is constructed in Jerusalem, which requires the appearance of a red heifer born in Israel.

The Talmud records that of the mysteries of God recorded in the Old Testament , the Red Heifer sacrifice it is the only one Solomon did not understand the meaning of.

It is required for those forms of Judaism seeking the coming of the Messach, its is not required for Christianity. Some signs for the Second Coming are required, but the Red Heifer is not one of them. instead there is all the 666, three and half years of Tribulation and such stuff.
While I can beleive some Chritian fringe groups might be wanting a Red Heifer, but they don't read their Bibles if they do. The Red Heifer is only needed prior to the first coming of the Messiah not the second. looking at the link this ma even be a minority of one, the nutcase trying to breed one.

As for building the Third Temple, the Red Heifer is the least of the problems, what is required are the temple ornaments, thats a LOT of gold, and some land clearance. as the land clearnace includes the Dome of the Rock mosque, the second most holy place in Islam after the Kabbah, you are immeidately going to have problems way beyond the colour of a cow.

Kilkrazy wrote:mattyrm do you know there are fundamentalist Christians who for religious reasons have murdered doctors?

I think you are talking about anti-abortionist nutjobs yes. we have two subsets there, most Christians are pro-life however they are only a portion of the anti-abortion movements. Those who picket abortion clinics can come from extremist fringe churches but also comes from secular society. it isnt fair to blame that on christians, and those nutjobs like the Westboro Baptists can be rightly dismissed as not-Christian at all in the same way an honest Moslem should disown suicide bombers.

Frazzled wrote:Modquisition on. Final warning. Posts disparaging other posts will lead to disciplinary proceedings from this point forward. All are advised as such.

Change that to personal attacks on other posters, and I will take it entirely at face value.

One can express a negative opinion, while not attacking the poster themselves.

I think dakka needs some islamic representation. The bible has all of that horrible violent bigoted crap in it as well, but as soon as some body brings that up, the jesus fan club pops in and gives their interpretations which seem far less violent and criminal than the actual words written in the book imply.

Im sure a few good muslims could do the same, here?

Kanluwen wrote:
And Fate:
Peaceful protests against gay marriage? Hahahahahaha. Sorry there sweetheart, but when the idea of a "peaceful" protest is carrying signs saying "FAGS BURN IN HELL" or "YOU'RE WHY GOD HATES AMERICA" is no fething way peaceful.

Also, Deadshane?
Christianity is not one to be casting stones about stupid people and their statements.

Or hey, how about Haiti just asking for that earthquake or New Orleans offending God?

The people who do this have as much in common with you by being 'fellow Americans' than they do with me for being 'fellow Christians'.

Do you feel kinship to them or their beliefs world views and lifestyles. No. We dont either.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Modquisition on. Final warning. Posts disparaging other posts will lead to disciplinary proceedings from this point forward. All are advised as such.

Change that to personal attacks on other posters, and I will take it entirely at face value.

One can express a negative opinion, while not attacking the poster themselves.

Sigh, it takes someone with an avatar of dancing monkeys (or monkeys stick fighting) to show the way of it.
personal attacks against other posters or dispersions against their character will not be tolerated from this point on.

Falconlance wrote:I think dakka needs some islamic representation. The bible has all of that horrible violent bigoted crap in it as well, but as soon as some body brings that up, the jesus fan club pops in and gives their interpretations which seem far less violent and criminal than the actual words written in the book imply.

We also don't need to fight fire with fire. I was literally two seconds from flooding this thread with quotes from every other religion expressing the exact same ideologies, but that would have been a very bad idea... Refer to wall of Koran text on this page, for context.

Im sure a few good muslims could do the same, here?

We don't need this to turn into a poo-slinging fest.

Frazz wrote:Sigh, it takes someone with an avatar of dancing monkeys (or monkeys stick fighting) to show the way of it.
personal attacks against other posters or dispersions against their character will not be tolerated from this point on.

The fight is eternal.

Orlanth wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And Fate:
Peaceful protests against gay marriage? Hahahahahaha. Sorry there sweetheart, but when the idea of a "peaceful" protest is carrying signs saying "FAGS BURN IN HELL" or "YOU'RE WHY GOD HATES AMERICA" is no fething way peaceful.

Also, Deadshane?
Christianity is not one to be casting stones about stupid people and their statements.

Or hey, how about Haiti just asking for that earthquake or New Orleans offending God?

The people who do this have as much in common with you by being 'fellow Americans' than they do with me for being 'fellow Christians'.

Do you feel kinship to them or their beliefs world views and lifestyles. No. We dont either.

But therein lies the point, Orlanth.

Does it seem likely in any way, shape, or form that the majority of Muslims approve of suicide bombers blowing themselves up in the middle of a crowded schoolyard in Baghdad, New Jersey, or anywhere?

Of course not, no more than the majority of Christians would approve of some guy firebombing an abortion clinic or killing a homosexual couple.

Orlanth wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And Fate:
Peaceful protests against gay marriage? Hahahahahaha. Sorry there sweetheart, but when the idea of a "peaceful" protest is carrying signs saying "FAGS BURN IN HELL" or "YOU'RE WHY GOD HATES AMERICA" is no fething way peaceful.

Also, Deadshane?
Christianity is not one to be casting stones about stupid people and their statements.

Or hey, how about Haiti just asking for that earthquake or New Orleans offending God?

The people who do this have as much in common with you by being 'fellow Americans' than they do with me for being 'fellow Christians'.

Do you feel kinship to them or their beliefs world views and lifestyles. No. We dont either.

I like this. This is an enlightening perspective.