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Falconlance wrote:

dogma wrote: Luke 19:26-27
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" .

Also attributed to Jesus.

I can look up some others if you like, but those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head.

Ooh, wow, how did THAT one stay hidden from me all this time?

The Luke 19 quote is misleading because it's a partial quote. The line Dogma tries to use to say Jesus said to kill people was actually the words of a nobleman in a parable. Let's take it in context, shall we?

Luke 19:11 While they were listening to these things, Jesus went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately.

12So He said, "A nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return.

<snip verses 13-25>

26"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.

27"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."


I'd like to remind everyone of another verse. Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"

As a general rule, the books weren't written to have single snippets taken out of as we're so accustomed to doing today. It's not like the scrolls have little numbers next to different passages. Out of context quotes from any book mean almost nothing. I believe the phrase war of attrition applies here...

dogma wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
So far that's 5 passages against my "Wall of Hatred and Intolerance"....keep going. So far the Quran is BY FAR the more hateful Tome.

Small wonder that it is preferred by the more hateful and authority chafing inmates in jail IMHO.

I'm actually itemizing and refuting that post right now, if this thread gets closed before I'm done, I'll post it in a separate thread. In any case, I know where you lifted that wondrous little list from, so I doubt that you read the entirety of it.



Link

Hey man, where there's smoke there's fire. Thats not bigotry, prejudice, or anything but good police work! I dont see much of an uprising online against Christianity.

See, as hateful as some christians can be, looking down their noses at you because you dont have the same faith as they, at least they're not blowing up stuff with people inside.....well, much.

The Green Git wrote:
I'd like to remind everyone of another verse. Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"

Alright, so whats that one mean nowadays, and what did it mean back in the day?

Religion, ban the fething lot of it.
Caused nothing but problems since the dawn of its creation.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Religion, ban the fething lot of it.
Caused nothing but problems since the dawn of its creation.

I think we already covered that, were branching out at this point.

Falconlance wrote:

The Green Git wrote:
I'd like to remind everyone of another verse. Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"

Alright, so whats that one mean nowadays, and what did it mean back in the day?

Since you asked... what it means to me is you shouldn't say it's good that people go around sawing heads off and say it's bad when a policeman puts down a menace to society.

But that's just me.

You really think im going to read 5 pages crammed full of biased posts and weak flame baiting falcon?
I rather not waste the time, just posting my views on it as a whole.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Out of context quotes from any book mean almost nothing. I believe the phrase war of attrition applies here...

Nailed it on the head.

I think that this thread would do better if deadshane, Fateweaver and Shuma stayed out for a day or two to left things cool down since they seem to the the "fringe" posters of this discussion.

Ah, so we aren't allowed to post our opinions?

If it ever got so that I can't post my opinion on Dakka I'd leave Dakka forever.

Mortified Penguin wrote:I think that this thread would do better if deadshane, Fateweaver and Shuma stayed out for a day or two to left things cool down since they seem to the the "fringe" posters of this discussion.

If you remove the extremes, all youve done is promoted the next mark over to the fringe.

No, at this point Dakka Rule #1 to other posters is being followed with vigor. For the moment as long as that is followed and this doesn't drop into nanynanybooboo level (note I'm not posting) then trying to keep open.

Anyway, I will leave this thread though (with of course my wall of Quran Quotes) because this entire issue is assinine.


YES, you're completely justified in being angry with Islam. Anything taken to extreme is bad. To argue that all Islams are tolerant and peaceful is a ridiculous statement. Of course, I'm sure some are tolerant and peaceful, possibly even the majority. Be angry at the ones that blow up sh!t and kill innocents for no other reason than political or religios aggenda. Nothing justifies that.

By the same token, I can see how people could be angry with the site that I grabbed that long list of atrocious quotes. They're justified as well, but not to the point of violence.

I dont beleive in ANY organised religion. In my opinion they're all silly little books that people take FAR too literally...christians included.

The SECOND you take your beliefs and attempt to influence MY life against my will...you're wrong. Worship in private and dont bug me? More power to you!


I DO find the Quran a bit extreme, and many of their followers extreme as well. I DO find that more violent inmates seem to follow islam and remain intolerant and violent, whilst heavy duty christians in the block tend to be mild and obedient...take from that what you will. Fact is right now there are 3 inmates in my block that I KNOW have the Quran in their property, one of which is devout...all three are actually "BLOODS", two of which are VERY defiant inmates. Strange that I notice that sort of thing but dont notice the same capability of violence in devout christian inmates. Hmmmmm.

From what I've seen I find it to NOT be a very tolerant religion...AT ALL. I don't find Christians to be very tolerant either...in fact...I've met some Christians that were downright hateful!

Whatever, I scoff at your organised religion, all of them. ESPECIALLY Islam. Now is not really the time to be touting the Tolerance and Peacefulness of your religion in America...not unless you're ready for this sort of thread.

Dont be surprised.

Wow... Okay, okay, It seems to me that deadshane and fate are playing the, "Oh but they are worse than us!"

Christianinty is no better than Islam (in the whole emtremist sense)

DO NOT come here and say that ALL Christians are peaceful loving people. DO NOT say that all muslims are hating people. DO NOT say that Islam is a violent, bloody religion. A TINY minority, A TINY, not even significant in population terms, are extreme, they twist This religion into their own sick twisted cult. I mean, christ, Fate, Shane, you are calling me a Jew hating, Christian hating, Violent person, by the way you depict Islam. I am not, and niether are any muslims I know. My best friend, the person I've relied on, since freaking 1st grade is Hard-core Baptist. Another close Friend of mine is Jewish. I see women as my equals, not as my sex slaves. I don'twant to kill all non muslims. I mena, you say that Islam has done this and that, WHAT ABOUT CHRISTIANS! What about Hutaree, thatgroup that tried to bomb a Police Officers wedding? Shristian Identity Movement? A majority of Nazis? How about Slave owners? Many did that in hteName of Jesus. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, these are emaples of Christian extremists. Passages from the Bible were given out to counter passages of the Quran. Hell, both exdamples are probably not even good enough, as Arabic to English translation pof the Quran is many times Shoddy, ANd there are God know how many different versions and translations of the Bible. You know, it's so, so easy to criticise things you don't know gak about. Not every Muslim is terrorist. Nearly ALL of us are normal people just trying to get on with our lives. And some fethers, a bunch of dip-shitted, dumb-ass, Cock-bags are ruining it for all of us. the actions of those FEW VERY FEW, and now those are the beliefs of all. It's complete horse-gak. I am Adam Muhammad Ismail Sweilem, 15, Muslim, Sunni. I lovevguitar, Blue, I pray 5 -times a day, I love 40k, I love games. My Muslim friends all have their own likes, but NONE of us hate others (race, religion, etc.) W are muslims, we are not terrorists, aned it is time you got that in your head

When I said leave for a day, I meant in order to give poeple time to collect their arguments and to cool tempers. I didn't intend to try and "censor" anyone (note I suggested that both sides leave). In any case having this kind of debate over the internet is difficult since everything gets distorted and exaggerated through the medium of text. Personally, I don't care one way or the other, although the level of Islamophobia in Europe has some dangerous parallels with historical anti-Semitism.

isthatmycow wrote:Wow... Okay, okay, It seems to me that deadshane and fate are playing the, "Oh but they are worse than us!"

Christianinty is no better than Islam (in the whole emtremist sense)

DO NOT come here and say that ALL Christians are peaceful loving people. DO NOT say that all muslims are hating people. DO NOT say that Islam is a violent, bloody religion. A TINY minority, A TINY, not even significant in population terms, are extreme, they twist This religion into their own sick twisted cult. I mean, christ, Fate, Shane, you are calling me a Jew hating, Christian hating, Violent person, by the way you depict Islam. I am not, and niether are any muslims I know. My best friend, the person I've relied on, since freaking 1st grade is Hard-core Baptist. Another close Friend of mine is Jewish. I see women as my equals, not as my sex slaves. I don'twant to kill all non muslims. I mena, you say that Islam has done this and that, WHAT ABOUT CHRISTIANS! What about Hutaree, thatgroup that tried to bomb a Police Officers wedding? Shristian Identity Movement? A majority of Nazis? How about Slave owners? Many did that in hteName of Jesus. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, these are emaples of Christian extremists. Passages from the Bible were given out to counter passages of the Quran. Hell, both exdamples are probably not even good enough, as Arabic to English translation pof the Quran is many times Shoddy, ANd there are God know how many different versions and translations of the Bible. You know, it's so, so easy to criticise things you don't know gak about. Not every Muslim is terrorist. Nearly ALL of us are normal people just trying to get on with our lives. And some fethers, a bunch of dip-shitted, dumb-ass, Cock-bags are ruining it for all of us. the actions of those FEW VERY FEW, and now those are the beliefs of all. It's complete horse-gak. I am Adam Muhammad Ismail Sweilem, 15, Muslim, Sunni. I lovevguitar, Blue, I pray 5 -times a day, I love 40k, I love games. My Muslim friends all have their own likes, but NONE of us hate others (race, religion, etc.) W are muslims, we are not terrorists, aned it is time you got that in your head

Take a vicadin, man. I got gak to do so I'll leave this thread for a few hours (or maybe forever). Though I have a feeling it won't be up much longer.

Peace.

Mortified Penguin wrote:When I said leave for a day, I meant in order to give poeple time to collect their arguments and to cool tempers. I didn't intend to try and "censor" anyone (note I suggested that both sides leave). In any case having this kind of debate over the internet is difficult since everything gets distorted and exaggerated through the medium of text. Personally, I don't care one way or the other, although the level of Islamophobia in Europe has some dangerous parallels with historical anti-Semitism.

I have overheard many, and participated in one (very short, due to my aversion to being shouted down) conversations that covered this exact same topic. The amount of rhetoric I hear, has calmed down a bit, but it is still at strong as ever, and it still draws that strength from abstract statements concerning race and religion.

Real life is real.

Folks found some on the New Testament, but honestly, a lot of modern Christian Fundamentalists find fuel for their hate in the Old.

Leviticus in particular is full of blood and exhortations about various things which are abominations in the sight of the Lord, and punishable by death. There are quite a few commandments having to do with violent relations with other religions scattered here and there.

Numbers 33:52 then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their figured stones, and destroy all their molten images and demolish all their high places;

Deuteronomy 7:5 "But thus you shall do to them: you shall tear down their altars, and smash their sacred pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire.

That Deuteronomy quote in particular gave me some unpleasant feelings about Christianity when I was a kid.

Overall, however, the point remains that nasty and terroristic behavior comes from a culture, and has more to do with poverty, misogyny, and tribalism than it does with any particular religion.

If Islam and Christianity were somehow magically switched in time, geography and which countries and cultures subscribed to them, Mattym would be starting this exact same conversation about Christianity, and and isthatmycow would have just posted a passionate stream of consciousness rant about his feelings as a young Christian, hating the stereotypes about Christian terrorists and fanatics.

Woah. I just logged on and read this thread.

I feel like I've just opened a door to a room and found a coke-fuelled orgy going on, but then as I've turned to leave, I've spotted my Mum out of the corner of my eye.

Y'know the feeling, kind of amused at first, maybe even a little excited - then shocked, and then a little bit depressed.

The Green Git wrote:
The Luke 19 quote is misleading because it's a partial quote. The line Dogma tries to use to say Jesus said to kill people was actually the words of a nobleman in a parable.

Of course its misleading, the purpose of the post was to illustrate that words in scripture, taken out of context, are meaningless. In fact, I even said that my 'interpretation' was wrong, in the same post.

Well, let's get this nonsense out of the way then. To begin, Deadshane got his information, virtually word for word from this website. The logo on the main page of this website?



Anyway, in the course of this post I will provide three different translations of the passages quoted by Deadshane; at least where there are substantively varying alternatives. I will not provide my own analysis, unless I am later questioned. I will, however, provide initial commentary pertaining to the structure of each passage as presented by Deadshane, and may also point out instances where the meaning of that passage is vague. These comments will be in bold and will refer to the passage below them. I will not comment on the Hadith, as it does not hold the same weight as the Koran.

Warning, this will be a very long post.

Anyway, on to it.


The manner in which this first passage has been treated is incredibly disingenuous. Even not accepting context, there is clearly an ellipsis present, which is not reassuring with respect to the veracity of the commentary. I will include the omitted segment when providing my alternative translations.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Koran 2:191

YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Koran 2:192

YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Koran 2:193

YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.



For the purposes of the following passage, and all passages which turn on the word, it should be noted that 'fight' is not intrinsically related to a physical (in the traditional sense) act.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Koran 2:244

YUSUFALI: Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.

PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.

SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearing, Knowing

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Koran 3:56

YUSUFALI: "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

PICKTHAL: As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers.

SHAKIR: Then as to those who disbelieve, I will chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers.


The initial commentary here speaks of the descriptor 'unbelievers' as applying to Christians. This is incorrect, as the Christians were a protected group, subject to Dhimma; primarily because the doctrine of the Trinity is largely mirrored by the traditional interpretation of Allah as a single being with multiple aspects. Though it is true that Islam places more emphasis on the singularity of Allah.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Koran 3:151

YUSUFALI: Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

PICKTHAL: We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.

SHAKIR: We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.


The commentary for this passage points out that this passage is the theological basis for suicide bombing. It is correct, however suicide is considered to be against the interests of Islam, and its is broadly accepted that knowingly going to one's death is not subject to the promise of reward.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Koran 4:74

YUSUFALI: Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

PICKTHAL: Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

SHAKIR: Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

Koran 4:95

YUSUFALI: Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-

PICKTHAL: Those of the believers who sit still, other than those who have a (disabling) hurt, are not on an equality with those who strive in the way of Allah with their wealth and lives. Allah hath conferred on those who strive with their wealth and lives a rank above the sedentary. Unto each Allah hath promised good, but He hath bestowed on those who strive a great reward above the sedentary;

SHAKIR: The holders back from among the believers, not having any injury, and those who strive hard in Allah's way with their property and their persons are not equal; Allah has made the strivers with their property and their persons to excel the holders back a (high) degree, and to each (class) Allah has promised good; and Allah shall grant to the strivers above the holders back a mighty reward:


More ellipses.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Koran 4:104

YUSUFALI: And slacken not in following up the enemy: If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships; but ye have Hope from Allah, while they have none. And Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

PICKTHAL: Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. If ye are suffering, lo! they suffer even as ye suffer and ye hope from Allah that for which they cannot hope. Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

SHAKIR: And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain, and you hope from Allah what they do not hope; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.


This passage, as with all passages in the eighth Surah, specifically relates to the concept of war in the name of God

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Koran 8:12

YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Koran 8:15

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.

PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them.

SHAKIR: O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

Koran 8:39

YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Koran 8:57

YUSUFALI: If ye gain the mastery over them in war, disperse, with them, those who follow them, that they may remember.

PICKTHAL: If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.

SHAKIR: Therefore if you overtake them in fighting, then scatter by (making an example of) them those who are in their rear, that they may be mindful.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Koran 8:59

YUSUFALI: Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).

PICKTHAL: And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.

SHAKIR: And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.

Koran 8:60

YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

PICKTHAL: Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.

SHAKIR: And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.


Here it must be noted that the concept of idolatry in Islam is not akin to idolatry in Christianity.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Koran 9:5

YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant."

Koran 9:20

YUSUFALI: Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).

PICKTHAL: Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant.

SHAKIR: Those who believed and fled (their homes), and strove hard in Allah's way with their property and their souls, are much higher in rank with Allah; and those are they who are the achievers (of their objects).



Here note that 'son' is distinct from 'prophet', though in many ways the difference is the result of terminological confusion between Arabic and Greek.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Koran 9:30

YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."

Koran 9:38

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.

PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! What aileth you that when it is said unto you: Go forth in the way of Allah, ye are bowed down to the ground with heaviness. Take ye pleasure in the life of the world rather than in the Hereafter? The comfort of the life of the world is but little in the Hereafter.

SHAKIR: O you who believe! What (excuse) have you that when it is said to you: Go forth in Allah's way, you should incline heavily to earth; are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter? But the provision of this world's life compared with the hereafter is but little.

Koran 9:39

YUSUFALI: Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things.

PICKTHAL: If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom, and will choose instead of you a folk other than you. Ye cannot harm Him at all. Allah is Able to do all things.

SHAKIR: If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."

Koran 9:41

YUSUFALI: Go ye forth, (whether equipped) lightly or heavily, and strive and struggle, with your goods and your persons, in the cause of Allah. That is best for you, if ye (but) knew.

PICKTHAL: Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.

SHAKIR: Go forth light and heavy, and strive hard in Allah's way with your property and your persons; this is better for you, if you know.

Deadshane1 wrote:
(9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them"

Koran 9:42

YUSUFALI: If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them. They would indeed swear by Allah, "If we only could, we should certainly have come out with you": They would destroy their own souls; for Allah doth know that they are certainly lying.

PICKTHAL: Had it been a near adventure and an easy journey they had followed thee, but the distance seemed too far for them. Yet will they swear by Allah (saying): If we had been able we would surely have set out with you. They destroy their souls, and Allah knoweth that they verily are liars.

SHAKIR: Had it been a near advantage and a short journey, they would certainly have followed you, but the tedious journey was too long for them; and they swear by Allah: If we had been able, we would certainly have gone forth with you; they cause their own souls to perish, and Allah knows that they are most surely

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Koran 9:111

YUSUFALI: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

SHAKIR: Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.


Maybe just a little interpretation going on here

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

Koran 47:4

YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

PICKTHAL: Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.

SHAKIR: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.


The commentary here asks why the blind, lame, and sick are exempted if this is meant to be a spiritual jihad. The simple answer is that Islam generally requires works of its followers, and this allows certain exemptions where necessary.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."

Koran 48:17

YUSUFALI: No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill (if he joins not the war): But he that obeys Allah and his Messenger,- (Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, (Allah) will punish him with a grievous Penalty.

PICKTHAL: There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom.

SHAKIR: There is no harm in the blind, nor is there any harm in the lame, nor is there any harm in the sick (if they do not go forth); and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, and whoever turns back, He will punish him with a painful punishment.


Wow, that's a wicked cut.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Koran 48:29

YUSUFALI: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

PICKTHAL: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.

SHAKIR: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"

Koran 61:4

YUSUFALI: Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.

PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah loveth them who battle for His cause in ranks, as if they were a solid structure.

SHAKIR: Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall.



Tense is important here.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed).

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.


Anyway, if you've stuck with this post for this long, then thanks. If not, then you're not reading this, too bad. Here come some final insights.

As in the Bible, the majority of instances in which violence is advocated are highly contextual, and subject to translation error. You'll note that many of the above passages become far milder when translated differently. Additionally, it should be noted that most of the metaphors for violence are congregated in the first 10 Surahs of the Koran, and the Hadith. If we are permitted to assume that Christianity (as a whole) is a religion of peace on the basis of only part of its holy text (The New Testament), then it seems safe to say that cherry-picking the Koran is fully justifiable.

dogma wrote:Warning, this will be a very long post.

dogma wrote:

Matthew 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.

For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;

and one's enemies will be those of his household."

Attributed to Jesus himself, no less. Apparently Jesus advocated fratricide, matricide, patricide, and perhaps even infanticide. Of course, that's not what this passage really means, but there you have it.

This is why you need to look at context.

This passage has nothing to do with fratricide, matricide, patricide, and perhaps even infanticide or any other 'cide. It's about persecution.

Jesus is saying that he is taking responsibility because the time will come when believers will be persecuted and hated, future tense from when he was speaking. As usual He is right and the warning timeless. Being a Christian can lay yourself open to all manner of abuse from those who hate the faith and yes persecution can come from any number of angles not excluding ones own family. The martyr I knew was stabbed to death by her own husband, a very close example of what Jesus was warning about.

While culpability for persecution is on the head of the abuser, Jesus knows that making a stand in his name is a catalyst for persecution as and of itself. Thus He feels reponsible for the plight of those who suffer in His name. All those who have known persecution for adherence to the Christian faith, and what I have experienced barely qualifies as touching this, can draw comfort from these verses.

Being Jewish, I don't tolerate things like this.

I was made fun of ENDLESSLY in school for my religion, I don't give two gaks about being politically correct about Islam.

If Islam doesn't want to be criticized just like every other religion, then it can stop being a religion.

This type of crap will only be resolved in 1 of 2 ways. Either its all going to boil down to severe war and we will kill everyone on the plant. Or 2. Our knowledge in sciences will transcend the need for religions, and we will all move to make life better through the glorious light of technology and one ness. It sounds pretty damn loopy, but if we all merge our bodies with technology more and more, eventually we will all be the same

KingCracker wrote:This type of crap will only be resolved in 1 of 2 ways. Either its all going to boil down to severe war and we will kill everyone on the plant. Or 2. Our knowledge in sciences will transcend the need for religions, and we will all move to make life better through the glorious light of technology and one ness. It sounds pretty damn loopy, but if we all merge our bodies with technology more and more, eventually we will all be the same

That second option sounds pretty bad. The 'one consciousness of humanity' thing.

It COULD be good, but Im a realist, itll get ruined with all kinds of bureaucratic non sense and will all end in flames

Wed all be Necrons of sorts at least. So we would be legally owned by GW

Orlanth wrote:
This is why you need to look at context.

This passage has nothing to do with fratricide, matricide, patricide, and perhaps even infanticide or any other 'cide. It's about persecution.

Yes, and just to be clear, that's what I was attempting to illustrate.

KingCracker wrote:This type of crap will only be resolved in 1 of 2 ways. Either its all going to boil down to severe war and we will kill everyone on the plant. Or 2. Our knowledge in sciences will transcend the need for religions, and we will all move to make life better through the glorious light of technology and one ness. It sounds pretty damn loopy, but if we all merge our bodies with technology more and more, eventually we will all be the same

Way #3: Zombie Appocolypse, where everyone is too concerned with surviving over who worships who.


Anywho, My parents are pretty much christian fanatics, and you can imagine how they feel about having a son who doesn't share their beleifs.....

Personally, I beleive any "mainstream" religion is bad. I will use myself as an example: my parents included me into the catholic church before I was old enough to decide what I wanted to do with my life. Hell, I still have no idea what to do with my life. But they practically forced me into something I didn't want. I had to attend classes learning about how much everything was practically my fault, and that I should repent for things I didn't do. Now, I am not saying I don't beleive in A God, but I don't buy the one I have been raised to beleive in. I mean, the first part of the bible is saying "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", and the other half is saying "Turn the other cheek". So which is it?

Anyway, Yeah, I hate religion, partly because most of the time they don't make sense, but also because if your not worshipping this god or that god, or even THOSE gods, your going to hell purely for that reason..... I mean, seriously? I have to conform to 50 different religions just to have a chance of some sort of reward that NO ONE has any clue about, they just go by something someone else preachs?