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This made me livid.




As you are all no doubt aware, there are some reports suggesting that the bomb found in New York may have been linked in some way to the creators of South Park.

Now, im tired of people making excuses for Islam.

We slate Mormons, Scientologists, Christianity et all in hearty doses, the Catholic church certainly gets an enormous amount of flak, Madonna gets up on stage and depicts herself in some sort of obscene crucifiction skit for example, but nobody gets killed.

Ok.. well.. maybe very rarely (Dr George Tiller for example)

The point it, our culture is better than theirs. Im not afraid to say it. If we get super pissed, we sue people. If they do, they bayonet some school kids/gas a girls school/make more death threats.

My liberal friends talk to me about my time in Afghanistan, and they say "its not our place to tell them how to run their country" or "its not our place to say their culture is wrong"

No. It is.

Our culture is better, strict muslims are innately misogynistic for example. I do not see why more people are not offended by this, where are all the femininists for example? Why are they so silent with regards to genital mutiliation and such?

Im tired of people bending over backwards to appease Islam. We have plenty of dialogue regarding all the religions of the world, but there is a war on and Islamonazis are trying their hardest to keep us from speaking about it.

So, what does dakka think the future holds? More wars? What is a likely solution?

Can't see the vid. What is it?

You don't see why people are offended by it? Really?


Well there will lways be war as long as there is something to possibly gain from it. Only way it can stop is if we're all dead or there's nothing worth taking. On that bright note it's probably best not to think about it all too much, huh.


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@ Malfred:South Park creators got a death threat from some extremist group about their dipiction of Muhammad. Now after this poorly constructed bomb in Times Square they're trying to see if they're linked or not.

Its a video talking about an episode in which all of the major religions are mocked other than Islam, as the network asked for it to be left out fearing repurcutions.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali basically points out at the end that Islam really should be held up for account the same as every other religion. And she is entirely correct in my eyes.

All Muslims go round bombing stuff all the time
let's nuke Saudi Arabia

You know I can really see this turning into a multi-page argument devolving into flaming shortly before being locked. Hopefully it will go sensibly.

Well yeah, WHY cant we say anything bad about it?

I feel its an entirely sensible question, we slate Religion all the time in our society, look at the Catholic church of late?

Sure they deserved some slack, but so does Islam, and yet people are curiously silent.

Why cant you say anything bad about it? Why are people so silent? Why have so few people heard of Theo Van Gogh?

Surely its not just fear?

The future hold more wars for, sure.

The solution? More education.

Personally I think secularization would do the trick nicely, but, haha, fat chance of that happening.

It’s a complicated issue. Islam is not a culture, it’s a religion. While it is part of the culture, and religious fundamentalism of any stripe is generally bad and dangerous, the two are not one and the same.

The medieval / misogynistic / expansionist / fundamentalist / xenophobic culture which is concurrent with many (most?) Islamic Fundamentalists is the problem, and is something we can legitimately criticize and even consider our own culture superior to. However, these elements generally do not represent the entire culture of any given country, just as they do not represent the entire religion of Islam.

mattyrm wrote:Well yeah, WHY cant we say anything bad about it?

I feel its an entirely sensible question, we slate Religion all the time in our society, look at the Catholic church of late?

Sure they deserved some slack, but so does Islam, and yet people are curiously silent.

Why cant you say anything bad about it? Why are people so silent? Why have so few people heard of Theo Van Gogh?

Surely its not just fear?

It's also socially unacceptable to some parties. Call it, reverse racism.

Yes mannahnin, but look at the OT on dakka for example, people are always whining about Christianity (me for example! )

But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.

Now many Muslims will argue that is not the case, and i dont buy it, so i want to hear an alternative theory. I am convinced that the sole reason it is criticized less is because its followers behave worse, and if that is the case, something is seriously wrong.

In what ways would my hypothesis be incorrect? Its not like you can say it gets criticized less because it is s much more nice and tolerant in comparrison to Christianity.

There's nothing wrong with the religion (or indeed any religion). It's the individuals who get stressed out about their beliefs who are the problem. And we're talking about the minority of individuals who get a dispropportinate amount of media coverage when they start ranting like zealots or do something insane. That's what really makes me mad about the Post 9/11 and 7/7 world is that thanks largely to the media, the actions of a handful of individuals have dragged us into wars that have killed millions. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if on September 12th 2001 the world's media just shrugged their shoulders and moved onto something else.

Concluding thought... If the world is going to stay sane, we have to remember that each time somebody gets over zealous regarding their beliefs, they and their actions do not speak for the majority.

n0t_u wrote:You know I can really see this turning into a multi-page argument devolving into flaming shortly before being locked. Hopefully it will go sensibly.

The OP is a bigoted rant against approximatley a World Religion followed by approximately 1.5 billion people
what do you realistically expect?

The solution to th epproblem here is simple

Kill Kenny

A bigoted rant. hmm.

I have a question.

At what point is it okay to no longer be tolerant? Surely theres a limit where enough is enough? Can it be justified to be bigoted?

You think stuff is crazy now, just wait until a red cow is born! Basically it is the prerequisite to building the third temple in Jerusalem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Heifer

There are multiple groups around the world trying to breed a perfect red cow just for this purpose. All past attempts ended up getting a few blemishes as the cow grew older.

To quote from the wiki article and temple article:

Some Christians believe that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ cannot occur until the Third Temple is constructed in Jerusalem, which requires the appearance of a red heifer born in Israel.

The most immediate and obvious obstacle to realization of these goals is the fact that two historic Islamic structures which are 13 centuries old, namely the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, are built on top of the Temple Mount. The Dome of the Rock is regarded as occupying the actual space where the Temple once stood, and Israel has undertaken to preserve access to these buildings as part of international obligations. Any efforts to damage or reduce access to these sites, or to build Jewish structures within, between, on, or instead of them, would lead to severe international conflicts

So when one gets born then I'm sure fun times will be had by all.

Falconlance wrote:
At what point is it okay to no longer be tolerant? Surely theres a limit where enough is enough? Can it be justified to be bigoted?

When 51% of muslims start believing in and demanding more 9/11 type events. Then you can unleash the nukes

mattyrm wrote:Yes mannahnin, but look at the OT on dakka for example, people are always whining about Christianity (me for example! )

But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.

It's probably because I doubt anyone here is knowledgeable enough about Islam to have decent comments to put against criticisms or even to make criticisms.

Obviously though, it doesn't stop you from making a ridiculous thread about Islam and use something that was completely refuted in the car bomb thread(Viacom's headquarters, which is conceivably what would be targeted by the car bomb if it were related to South Park? It was at least two blocks away. You really gonna tell me a fertilizer bomb would have done any damage at all to the building?) as an excuse for it and to start asking why people don't bash on Islam.

Flashman wrote:

Falconlance wrote:
At what point is it okay to no longer be tolerant? Surely theres a limit where enough is enough? Can it be justified to be bigoted?

When 51% of muslims start believing in and demanding more 9/11 type events. Then you can unleash the nukes

I don't want to unleash nukes on the muslim world, I want to unleash schools and free thought on the muslim world.

mattyrm wrote:Yes mannahnin, but look at the OT on dakka for example, people are always whining about Christianity (me for example! )

But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.

Now many Muslims will argue that is not the case, and i dont buy it, so i want to hear an alternative theory. I am convinced that the sole reason it is criticized less is because its followers behave worse, and if that is the case, something is seriously wrong.

In what ways would my hypothesis be incorrect? Its not like you can say it gets criticized less because it is s much more nice and tolerant in comparrison to Christianity.

The problem I alluded to is that you’re conflating a smaller sub-set of Islamic Fundamentalists (the violent, fanatical ones, in particular) with the larger group of everyone who belongs to the religion. Heck, while I find fundamentalists abhorrent, not even all of them are violent fanatics. So that’s three sub-sets, and I don’t think you can legitimately claim the nasty crazies allow us to condemn the larger, more reasonable group.

I don’t think the existence of violent crazies is actually particular to Islam. More to the repressive, backwards cultures found in parts of some Muslim countries. But that’s really a feature / flaw of those cultures, and their economic and social progress (or lack thereof). How they misuse their religion is just a part of the larger whole, not really a flaw of Islam in particular. There have been (and are) certainly lots of violent fundamentalist crazies from Christian, Jewish, or other religions. They’re just not as prevalent today due to the larger cultural and economic picture where they tend to live nowadays.

Falconlance wrote:

Flashman wrote:

Falconlance wrote:
At what point is it okay to no longer be tolerant? Surely theres a limit where enough is enough? Can it be justified to be bigoted?

When 51% of muslims start believing in and demanding more 9/11 type events. Then you can unleash the nukes

I don't want to unleash nukes on the muslim world, I want to unleash schools and free thought on the muslim world.

Ironically, Saddam Hussein was a quite moderate muslim with regards to education. He advocated university education for all Iraqis, both men and women. He never really grasped the idea of free thought though...

I guess a zealot is a zealot in any religion. You get someone sufficiently frothed up over religion and they will respond in kind; Christianity isn't immune to it, we have our bile spewing zealots too.

I do accept that Islam seems to have a higher proportion...

Flashman wrote:

Falconlance wrote:

Flashman wrote:

Falconlance wrote:
At what point is it okay to no longer be tolerant? Surely theres a limit where enough is enough? Can it be justified to be bigoted?

When 51% of muslims start believing in and demanding more 9/11 type events. Then you can unleash the nukes

I don't want to unleash nukes on the muslim world, I want to unleash schools and free thought on the muslim world.

Ironically, Saddam Hussein was a quite moderate muslim with regards to education. He advocated university education for all Iraqis, both men and women. He never really grasped the idea of free thought though...

I kind of grasped that, actually. Pity he didn't turn out a better man.

Radical Islam should have no place in this world, it is a poorly interpreted version of what is an otherwise peaceful religion.

Almost all elements of radical Islam stem from mis-interpretations of the Koran or archaic traditions which have little or no religeous foundation.

At best it is oppresive and bigoted as worst it is violent and destructive

Many devout Muslims, both radical and moderate, are quick to point out that not tolerating mockery of their faith is part of their culture, well what if taking the pi$$ out of your culture is part of mine?

Why should I have to change my views and beliefes to fit in with an alien culture which has very little that it positive to bring to my own?

I have no problem with moderate religion of any type, it has it's place in society and even though I am not religeous myself if it helps others to deal with their lives and problems then its all good with me.

Falconlance:

It’s a good counter example as well, actually. He was a brutal dictator, but relatively moderate from a religious perspective.

Squilverine:

Exactly. Repressive jerks will inevitably focus on the repressive and reactionary parts of the religion. For example, Christians who fixate on prohibitions against homosexuality which are mostly out of Leviticus, a book infamous for its lists of archaic things which merit the death penalty (like cutting your beard, or working on a Sunday).

It's probably because I doubt anyone here is knowledgeable enough about Islam to have decent comments to put against criticisms or even to make criticisms.

That sure doesn't stop commentary on Christianity here.


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Falconlance wrote:

Flashman wrote:

Falconlance wrote:
At what point is it okay to no longer be tolerant? Surely theres a limit where enough is enough? Can it be justified to be bigoted?

When 51% of muslims start believing in and demanding more 9/11 type events. Then you can unleash the nukes

I don't want to unleash nukes on the muslim world, I want to unleash schools and free thought on the muslim world.

Edubombs of Mass Education!

Aasif Mandvi had some really great, cogent thoughts, speaking as a Muslim:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/thu-april-22-2010-zoe-saldana

Frazzled wrote:

It's probably because I doubt anyone here is knowledgeable enough about Islam to have decent comments to put against criticisms or even to make criticisms.

That sure doesn't stop commentary on Christianity here.

Ever heard the phrase, "only two people read the bible, atheists and scholars."?

I tried reading the Quran, I didn't have the will to get past the first 80 pages. What I did learn though, is that translating from arabic to english causes the words to lose a lot of their strength of meaning. What translates to "struggle", as an example, is a mild way to put it.

Cheer up OP..



Yeah people don't openly bag islam because they react harshly. Any group that reacts harshly and gets all serious and potentially violent gets a false smiles in public and then nasty words after.

But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.

I'm sorry, you must have been missing every time half a dozen posters including yourself spoke poorly of islam for the past year. You must also have not been watching when modern television mocked their religion and constantly berated it as violent and foolish since 2001. I can see how you would think that they get some sort of special pass when we are engaged in wars in two of their countries, recursively stop and question people of middle eastern descent because of security concerns relating to the religion, and talk about whether or not it's violent consistently in every single topic involving the religion or the region its most popular in.

Yes, I can see how you would think all these things.

Do the blinders your wearing really keep all that out that well or are you just trolling?

mattyrm do you know there are fundamentalist Christians who for religious reasons have murdered doctors?

There is nothing wrong with Islam.

There is something wrong with people.

Don't be angry at Islam.

Be angry with people.