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How about the DE raider stats but only able to carry 6 or 8 models and the shield rule from the wave serpent. They should be able to out flank or something along the lines or that.

nathan2195 wrote:How will it work?
What I think the rule should be to deploy them any table edge as long as they are not with in 12" of an enemy unit and within 12" of the edge. As for the points maybe 60-65 per unit armed with the normal weapons as vypers.

They would only benefit from the outflank when coming in from reserve.

Macok wrote:This isn't a good idea and I don't think we will ever see this.

4 vipers carry 8 Harlies. What happens when one viper gets shot down? Two disembark and form a new unit? Those 2 are destroyed? Everybody must disembark?

Every idea is so disadvantageous that this wouldn't be a viable option. Taking a single transport for 8 models is easier and cheaper (points and money) too.

Funny, it is already in the game used by our little brothers the Tau. The Stripped Vypers(Thinking Passenger Pillon Upgrade +5 Points) would operate in the same manner as the Tau Piranha w/their drones in that if one is downed then all units disembark. Also, Acrobatic rule will possibly allow safer dismounts at faster speeds.

nathan2195 wrote:How about the DE raider stats but only able to carry 6 or 8 models and the shield rule from the wave serpent. They should be able to out flank or something along the lines or that.

Don't want the Two armies to start looking the same. If that happens then GW will be only one step from combining the codices. I was proposing the Vypers because of the inter-unit support that would occur and because it would look different from the DE while somehow looking very right for the Eldar.

Ok, now that we have taken care of the major issues it is back to the smaller but still important. I am proposing about 60-65 per unit armed with the normal weapons as the vypers.

focusedfire wrote:Don't want the Two armies to start looking the same. If that happens then GW will be only one step from combining the codices. I was proposing the Vypers because of the inter-unit support that would occur and because it would look different from the DE while somehow looking very right for the Eldar.

Your right some what, they would not get combined the DE would get eliminated and we don`t want that...

Time for the next unit. I would like to go with the Guardians ans Storm Gaurdians.

How would you improve the Guardians and storm guardians?

They haven't changed since 3rd edition, back when only Eldar and other fast armies had units which could run. Back then, they weren't really worth their points since they would die after their unleashed their shots, now they will die before they get to shoot since everyone can run, so having a 12" weapon just won't do.

Here's just a few options:
* Give them Avenger cats
* Reduce points
* Increase number of platforms, probably incrementally depending on Guardians.

As for Storm Guardians, well... again, they are weaklings with slightly better statline. Costly for their efficiency. Personally I'd like to see a deep strike simply added, but there are probably other ways to deal with them. Ironically that bringing 3 meltas with the squad is mandatory, no?
At the very least, give them 'nades. Edit: maybe a disclaimer: I've never actually had any practical experience with storm guardians.

I was thinking that maybe following the old craftworld codex idea but extending it.

First, I believe all Guardians should be BS 4. Yes, they are poets, artists and such but that doesn't preclide gaining experience. Elvis was an artist but he learned how to shoot straight once trained.
We are talking about a citizen militia that have been organized and fighting for hundreds of years if not more. Yet, Humans get BS 4 after 10 tears of combat? This makes no sense.

As to their weapon skill....I am up in the air. Personally, If the gaurdians got the same stat line as storm trooper for the old price of 10 points each I wouldn't mind. Then just change their basic weapons to Lasblasters or a range 24" rapid fire shuriken weapon for the Gaurdians and leave the Storms equipped as they are. Give both units Hay Wire grenades. This would leave them not as good as Dire Avengers but better and mor distinctive than they are.

To sum up:
WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 A 1 I 4 Ld 7-8 Save 4+

Guardians get Range 24" Rapid Fire rifles and Defensive Grenades

Storms get Shuri-Pistol, sword(chain sword), Assault grenades

Both units are Fleet of Foot

What do you think?

I like your idea for the guardians except for their saves they should have 5+ not 4+, dire avengers should be better at something. Other than that they are good.

I went with 4+ save to reflect that they would want to preserve the lives of their citizen militia.

As things would stand with my version of the guardians, the Dire Avengers would still be carrying Assault 2 Range 18" weapon. This would translate into an extra attack per combined shooting/assault than the Storm Guardians and this is before the exarch powers kick in.

Also, With the standard guardians, you would start to see the support weapons again.

I feel this would make the DA's, Guardians, and Storm Guardians all viable to use, depending upon the build.

If it is to powerful in playtest them maybe roll back to 5+ save but think I would rather up the costs and DA's abilities to maintain balance.

The Eldar militia has been organized since the downfall of the Eldar civilization, but their citizens only serve part-time in it. Part-time for an Eldar, however, is quite possibly longer than a human soldier is expected to live, and that's only the amount of training the Eldar militia get.

The only problem I see with BS4, however, is strictly a gaming one. The volume of fire Eldar can dish out is quite high. Additionally, Guardians with BS4 rubs off on several other areas such as platforms, vehicles, etc. Yes, it can be done, but price hikes and several other things will change.
I'm more fond of changing Warlock powers to include a BS or hit chance increase instead, since this gives targeted and controllable boost to Guardian performance.

Guardians being fragile is OK. They aren't the survival troop choice, after all, that's the realm of the Spiritseer-Wraiths. Guardians are support/firepower troops, and simply put need more of it. I'm much more comfortable with more platforms to form the motivator for more Guardians. Then the Guardians themselves would be the hull or protectors of the fire-base. An extra spike if you get too close.
Incidentally, it's easier and cheaper to get heavy weapons on the board if you use Vypers, which are supposed to be a tactical unit rather than a firebase unit. Maybe they get taken down a bit easier than Guardians, though...

As for Storm Guardians - holo fields a'la Harlequins (5++ save)?

Ok, I don't have much time to get everything down, but how about a Catapult with an adjustible fire mode. Make them 12" Assault 2 or 18" Assault 1? That would give them the mobility that is a hallmark of Eldar, while not being overpowered, and not being the same as other similar weapons. And it would be different, play wise, to the way Rapid Fire works.

I'd put armor to +4, though, just because they should have better protection to justify the fluff. If the cost is too cheap, they need to be repointed, not weakened to justify the cost. Ultimately, fluffwise, they should be immensely skilled to represent the years of training they have, but if we want to go that way, we'll have to pay for it.

OK, I see your point for the saves. One thing I need for the guardians is the option to take more than one platform

How about the ability for the platform to fire at a different target?

The reason I'm thinking of going this route is that I believe the guardians should be limited to 10-12 man units?

focusedfire wrote:How about the ability for the platform to fire at a different target?

That would be good because usually the weapon I take is for anti-tank uses.

focusedfire wrote:The reason I'm thinking of going this route is that I believe the guardians should be limited to 10-12 man units?

For that idea have it 10 max without a heavy weapon, than for squads with a heavy weapon it has two more men which is the crew of the gun.

Limiting them to 10 with two being replaced, instead of added, to control the platform is by far easier and neater, and if that doesn't convince you then consider the Wave Serpent's transport limitations.

What about upgrading specific guardians with a hand-carried Shuriken Cannon? It's assault, after all... Eldar are a bit static, their units tend not to have many options at all to choose from.

I really want the Defender Guardians to reflect a mobile ranged aspect of warfare, while the Storm Guardians are a little more assault oriented. The reason for this is to reflect the Eldar nature of focusing upon one aspect or another.

I am thinking that the Warlock will gain a longer ranged version of destructor or much improved conceal that will compliment the defender guardian abilities.

The Guardian Defenders should be armed with Rapid Fire weapons that force a choice between move or shoot long range. The exception to this would be the weapon platforms that can move and fire to max range. I don't know if the platforms should be relentless or slow and purposeful. If the weapons stay as they are with the boost in BS then they should have relentless, but if they are improved further by twin-linking then they would have to become slow and purposeful, I think

Here's another thought.

Eldar Longrifle - changed to assault 1
Rangers - WS improved to 4. Unit may no longer be upgraded to Pathfinders, but may be joined by a Pathfinder at +25 points.
Pathfinder - Any unit lead by a Pathfinder benefits from the Scout and Move Through Cover USR. A unit of Rangers also ignores difficult terrain. A Pathfinder may exchange his Long Rifle for a Power Weapon and a Shuriken Pistol at no cost.
Guardian - A unit of Guardians may be joined by either a Warlock or a Pathfinder at +25 points.

This way you can make an Alaitoc force, and you get more tactical options with your Storm Guardians. In most cases, a Pathfinder would be better than a Warlock, but a Warlock still has it's uses in an Iyanden oriented force or an Ulthwé oriented one because of spiritsight or that the Pathfinder does not provide important cover saves for a non-mech force.
Conceal could be reworded that if the unit additionally is in cover, the cover will be improved by +1.
I'm not certain Destructor need to be rewritten, but rather the supportive abilities the Warlock can otherwise chose be made more relevant to a shooting unit.

Mahtamori wrote:Here's another thought.

Eldar Longrifle - changed to assault 1
Rangers - WS improved to 4. Unit may no longer be upgraded to Pathfinders, but may be joined by a Pathfinder at +25 points.
Pathfinder - Any unit lead by a Pathfinder benefits from the Scout and Move Through Cover USR. A unit of Rangers also ignores difficult terrain. A Pathfinder may exchange his Long Rifle for a Power Weapon and a Shuriken Pistol at no cost.
Guardian - A unit of Guardians may be joined by either a Warlock or a Pathfinder at +25 points.

Longrifle- No, all snipers should be heavy 1 just not the eldar`s
Rangers- WS should be improved. As for the pathfinders idea not a good idea just leave it as it is.
Guardian- They are good as it is for squad leaders.

Well, regardless, common comments about Guardians are, roughly in order of frequency:
* Die very easily
* Low amount of firepower at an effective range
* Tend to miss a lot with the heavy weapon (requires Guide to be effective)
* Heavy weapon is the only reason to take them
* Costly for efficiency

So fixes to the problems seem to be, roughly in order of relevancy:
* Increase armour save to 4+
* Increase basic weapon range with +6" in one way or another, or increase number of platforms, or both
* Increase number of platforms or increase BS to 4
* ..
* OR, lower point cost to 6-7 per model. (Personally not a fan of this one)

Depending on how much you compound the other changes, you may need a price increase per Guardian. However, considering that Guardians can be described as the reason why Eldar usually scale poorly in games 0-1500 points or games at points where the FOC tend to be filled, essentially an Eldar's force has nearly all the versatility in Heavy Support and Elite choices. Guardians are the bread and butter foot troops of the Eldar army and described as support teams.

* 4+ save: Could possibly make them more assaulty. Certainly a boon for Storm Guardians. Could be argued that doesn't merit a cost increase on it's own.
* Shuricat 18": May remove the niche that Avengers occupy similar to how it was in 3rd edition. Extending Guardian's range beyond 12" could possibly mean they need a new weapon entirely.
* BS4: This has impact on the rest of the Eldar mechanized section. All vehicles are piloted by Guardians. Vypers are already rather costly and this could be their way out, Falcons may move from slightly costly to slightly too good, War Walkers bring so much firepower already that this may simply overpower them. Fire Prisms are left untouched.
* Increase number of platforms: My personal favorite. Simply put, you don't need to do anything with the price at all, the platforms have their own cost. All you need to do is have it scale with the size of the squad. This still leaves the fact that the Guardians would be fillers, but try to look at a Guardian Squad as a modified War Walker squad (less long ranged firepower, more survivability against anti-tank, less survivability against CC).

Sorry for repeating, slightly, what has been said in other threads and this one, but the way I look at it these are some of the best options. I'm personally a fan of 4+ with more platforms combination, particularly 1 platform per 5 Guardians.

I like your idea of giving them 4+ that makes them objective holders not cannon fodder in my army. As for the platforms they need that from the very start

@Mahtamori-Your analysis is spot on and no need to apologize for the summing up. You narrowed down to the four points that I've been addressing and supplemented with the reasons of the needed changes so that others wishing to join in conversation will have better understanding. As to some of the points made, I'd like to either echo or clarify my perspective on the Eldar for each of these.

Improve armour save to 4+: Yes, From both a fluff and game mechanics perspective. Back in second or third edition the 5+ may have cut it but not with the current level of codex creep and mechanization in 5th ed. For Storm Guardians this is along with plasma grenades and bumping their BS to 4 would be enough to make them viable.

Change Guardian weapons: Yes & No, Strictly from a unit purpose perspective. Guardian defenders are a defensive unit by nature and have no need for a 12" range 2 shot assault weapon. The unit would be better defined and balanced by a switch to a Rapid Fire version of Lasblasters or something similar that has a 24" range.
Storm Guardians on the other hand are perfectly equipped with the pistols and swords. Their standard weapons with the improvements already mentioned would make them a solid unit. They wouldn't be as good as Dire Avengers in assaults and objective holding, but would have better tactical flexibility.

Improving Guardian BS to 4: Yes, Strictly from an army design point of view. The average Eldar are supposed to be super-human in their grace speed and accuracy. This should translate to BS 4 standard on both Guardians and Eldar Vehicles because of guardian crews. This would make most of the Eldar vehicles close to being worth their points costs and the only unit that would become OP would be the War Walkers which could easily balanced by an appropriate points increase.

Eldar weapon platforms changes: This is a grey area. I like the idea of of a platform for every 5 guardians as it reflects the Eldar Glass Hammer design philosophy. This would reduce the number of alblative wounds for each weapon platform while increasing overall unit cost. This would make the unit good at Alpha striking but it points effectieness would decrease dramatically when going second, coming under fire from blast weapons, or when facing opponents with a High VoF.

I also, like my idea of allowing these weapons to target and fire upon seperate units, but this may not fit the Eldar character and will be OP if combined with more platforms. This ability might could be a new Warlock/Autarch power but it may be a bit to Tau-ish.

Then there is the question of the Eldar Heavy weapon platforms. These are also operated by Guardians with any changes to the base guardian stat-line affecting these units. I have posted an idea but it feels unfinished or a little off. It is my base concept that the Eldar should not have any static units. Instead they should be based upon movement and speed.

What do yopu guys think?

Platforms aren't heavy weapons, so you stand a somewhat good chance of hiding them and then moving them out when ready to fire. Additionally, reserving them also protects them more from alpha strikes and makes the Eldar army threaten a larger area, so spending points in there and chancing it on the dice to go first isn't devastating - it can be mitigated.

Good point about the platforms.

My main question is now more about the Support Weapon Squads. How do you fix these units?

Support weapon squads need the ability to different weapons. That is really the only thing they need.

Mahtamori wrote:Well, regardless, common comments about Guardians are, roughly in order of frequency:
* Die very easily
* Low amount of firepower at an effective range
* Tend to miss a lot with the heavy weapon (requires Guide to be effective)
* Heavy weapon is the only reason to take them
* Costly for efficiency

So fixes to the problems seem to be, roughly in order of relevancy:
* Increase armour save to 4+
* Increase basic weapon range with +6" in one way or another, or increase number of platforms, or both
* Increase number of platforms or increase BS to 4
* ..
* OR, lower point cost to 6-7 per model. (Personally not a fan of this one)

Really, Eldar must be different from Marines, Tau, and IG. They cannot be too much of a horde as they are a dying race. They cannot have heavy armor because they prize speed and agility. If they have long range, then they must have high cost to match their mobility. So the best option is to increase their short range firepower. Leave them BS 3, T3, 5+ save, but make shuricats assault 4. Since they will only have one turn of shooting at best, they should be the glass cannon and destroy what they shoot at.

@Durandel-Shuricats at assault 4 would make the Guardians as good as Dire Avengers for less points.

Giving the Guardians a 4+ save, bumping them to BS 4, while better defining(Narrowing) their focus will fit better with the overall Eldar Codex.

@nathan-The support weapons are to vulnerable against everything, especially for a valued Heavy Support Slot. Something more than just adding Bright Lances, EML's, and the such.

Either make them a better non-suicide unit or get rid of the unit altogether.

@focusedfire
I see your point so maybe give them a 2+ or 3+ save that will make them less likely to die as fast.

People here really can't agree on how good guardians should be, but they might be thinking of different craftworlds. There would be a huge difference between a craft world that has managed to avoid constant use of guardians (and the loss of precious eldar life that goes along with it), and craft worlds that have been in such bitter conflict that they have been excessively using their guardians to the point where they have few left leaving nothing but battle hardened guardians.

I really feel the only way to properly show that is for the next eldar codex to include 2 tiers of guardians for both defenders and storm guardians much like how IG has guardsmen & veterans.

Black Guardians a'la Craftworld Ulthwé? (Ulthwé happen to be the most populous craftworld)

I think most would agree that Guardians should perform equally well as to merit 8 to 10 points. At the moment I'd give at most 6 points for Guardians. I don't think there's a wide agrement over Guardians being throw-away troops.

The problem with Guardians is that they use weapons which are essentially close combat, but without stats to back it up. Defenders use the close combat weapons in alpha-strike while storm guardians are more tie-up forces. If there's anything Bladestorm has taught us is that shurikens in high volume of fire can actually be effective, but the biggest difference is that Avengers have three advantages:
1. They don't need to get in guaranteed counter-charge range
2. They have greater and more reliable VOF per troop
3. They do have armour and supporting abilities to sustain an assault (the latter requires Exarch).
While they still are crap in assault, they can hold out long enough to support them. Guardians can not.

Nathan, please don't over-do it. We're not trying to create a new Spess Mahreens codex

The way you are making guardian's play woud make DA's redundent.

I'd suggest keeping them as they are, changing their weapons to be the same as a boltgun (longer range than DA's but have stay still to make use of it) that would encourage Guardian's to gard objectives ect. maybe BS4 but not WS4. Then reduce the points to make them a viable choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing that could be considered would be to improve the save granted from the warlock power conceal and increase its point cost (maybe 4+ save?). That would help their survivability from ranged fire.

I believe that 8 points with a 4+ save is more or less what it takes. It helps the Stormies and it helps the Guardians survive, which is their greatest problem.

However, the Guardians also need more platforms, which are payed for separately. Increasing the number of weapons mean that you also get more synergy benefits from Guiding them, which in turn helps them with their hit-related problems.

Now, 6" on Guide can sometimes be a bit difficult to work with, especially considering the costs you pay for it in comparison to what other armies pay for their psychic powers, but as a tactical concept it is still sound.