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I field as many painted as I can.

But, I'll play for and against unpainted.

I field only 100% WYSIWYG and fully painted models. I have pride in my work and respect my opponent's enjoyment by not burdening them with proxies or forcing upon them unpainted models as to many, the game is a small part of the hobby and just an excuse to push painted minis around a board.

I usually prefer to play against people who are at least WIP painting. I like to see people who are working on achieving a painted army and like to see the 'in progress'. I also tend to choose events where the expectation is 100% WYSIWYG and painted.

I don't have to refuse games, but often by having a fully painted army, I am offered so many games and have so many opponents to choose from, I can simply choose the opponents who paint and deny non-painters by simply choosing someone else.

The only advice I can give someone is 100% WYSIWYG and painted army will be accepted by 100% of opponents. So if you always want a game you know the standard you need to meet.

nkelsch wrote:I field only 100% WYSIWYG and fully painted models. I have pride in my work and respect my opponent's enjoyment by not burdening them with proxies or forcing upon them unpainted models as to many, the game is a small part of the hobby and just an excuse to push painted minis around a board.

I usually prefer to play against people who are at least WIP painting. I like to see people who are working on achieving a painted army and like to see the 'in progress'. I also tend to choose events where the expectation is 100% WYSIWYG and painted.

I don't have to refuse games, but often by having a fully painted army, I am offered so many games and have so many opponents to choose from, I can simply choose the opponents who paint and deny non-painters by simply choosing someone else.

The only advice I can give someone is 100% WYSIWYG and painted army will be accepted by 100% of opponents. So if you always want a game you know the standard you need to meet.

This.

Painted only.

Well, after having one fully painted army after another deep sixed by GW, I don't worry about it as much as I used to. I paint when I can, and generally field armies that are completely or mostly painted. But I've grown disillusioned over the years and just find it hard to care whether mine or someone else's army is fully painted.

Besides, we get lots of newbs at our club nights, and there's no way I'm going to tell some young guy or gal that they have to go home and finish painting that army before we'll let them play. I'll encourage them to paint it as they're able to, but to go 'paint nazi' on them. No thanks.

I have to play with painted, its a point of simple pride.

my opponent can play with unpainted, but they have to be assembled properly or look the part. I wont play with partialy assembled figures on the table be it vehicles or units..(legs glued to base for example..)

Didn't know how to vote, so I didn't.

I will not bring an unpainted army to a game store, club, tournament, etc. I just plain will not. Also, the army must be WYSIWYG, with a few exceptions--things like Look-Out Gnoblars don't worry me too much.

This only applies to "going out" with miniatures. If my brother comes over to goof off, I have no problems using unpainted models. But I won't embarass myself by bringing less than my best out with me.

If given my choice, I would likewise only play against an opponent with a fully-painted, WYSIWYG army as well, and I despise playing against a bare plastic army (or worse, a solid black army where you cannot tell what anything is supposed to be). I'm not saying I would never play against them, but if my choices were between two identical players, one with an unpainted army, the other with a fully-painted army, I'd rather play the latter.

Quite the contrary. If those models are not 100% unpainted, I want nothing to do with them. Bare bases are a plus too. This one time I broke this rule and accidently played against a guy who had a primed army. BIG misake. He went on for literally FIVE MINUTES about his fluff and how his Tau were from a planet made of obsidian and so they were all colored black as camoflauge. Total fluff-bunny. He then made fun of me for my unpainted army and accused me of being a WAAC guy. Never again.


So sarcasm aside, everytime one of these threads come up, the question I always ask is "Why?" Why does it matter if their army is painted or unpainted? I can understand the need for your own army to be painted. I'd love to have all of my 5000+ points of IG painted, then maybe I could work on any of the other 3 armies I have. I've actually got the SM most of the way done, but there are much fewer of them. There just isn't enough time in the day. As far as what I'll play against? I'd play against empty bases and beer bottle drop pods. I know how tall everything is supposed to be and where to draw LOS from; it's not a problem. We actually did that for an Apoc game once. It was pretty good.

I dont care either way, ill play with unpainted and will play against anyone.

Im not the best painter, and this clashes with the fact that i want my minis to look really good, so it takes me a really long time just to paint one.

I do warhammer mainly for the gaming, i like to paint sometimes, just not all the time.

Im not going to pass up playing a game because i just got a new army/box of units and havent finished painting them yet.

I have a hard time understanding the crowd who refuses to play against an unpainted army. The game is the same either way. I they want to pigeon hole themselves into a position where they may not get in a pick up game with someone from time to time because the army is unpainted they are only hurting themselves.

It's the divide between the 'gamers' and the 'hobbyists', I guess.

augustus5 wrote:I have a hard time understanding the crowd who refuses to play against an unpainted army. The game is the same either way. I they want to pigeon hole themselves into a position where they may not get in a pick up game with someone from time to time because the army is unpainted they are only hurting themselves.

I have a hard time understanding why someone would bother to read a book when you can simply watch the movie. The story is the same either way.

Some people *LIKE* reading books... Just like some people *like* seeing painted models by others, seeing armies, talking about paint techniques, asking how someone did something, giving tips on painting and so on. It is not simply 'a game' but a social experience and unlike many things that are based around no effort and instant gratification, there is something 'more fun' when a game can be a cinematic narrative between two waring armies instead of the raw mechanics of 'just a game'.

There is a significant difference to me when playing on a cardboard mat with coke-can terrain and grey unpainted models and playing with two fully-painted armies on a detailed terrain board. Even in the raw gameplay. So I would hardly say the 'game is the same either way' because it really isn't.

I will say many times I will choose to *not* play a game with unpainted opponents to set up shop at the painting table and socialize with people who are painting. Often I will even paint some minis for them or help them assembly line some stuff or learn/teach techniques from/to others. It is something I enjoy and I can avoid participating in a game with unpainted models which I may not enjoy depending on the prospective opponents. But I usually never have a problem finding an opponent. Usually someone who has a WIP army is enough for me to have enough in common with to have a good gaming experience.

Oh, I like seeing painted armies and all that, but I'm not going to discriminate against someone because they're just getting started and they're all excited about the game and they haven't painted their army yet. That's how we LOSE gamers. Encourage them, support them, help them, play them. But don't get all hoity-toity on them and tell them that you won't play them until they finish painting their army and basing it and all taht crap. That is NOT what building the hobby is all about.

To use your book movie analogy. Sure, I'd much rather read the book. But if I only have two hours to spare, then all I can manage to do is watch the movie. Soemday, when I get time, I'll go back and read taht book. And putting that in gaming terms? Play time is limited, so that's when I'm going to play, and if someone's army isn't painted, so be it. When I (or they) get time, sure, paint on that army as you can. But again, don't look down on someone because, for whatever reason, their army is unpainted. That's just elitist snobbery at it's worst! Seriously, read what you've written and see if you're not coming off as a paint nazi snob.

Most "book to movie" translations aren't actually anywhere near the same. So that really doesn't work.

No matter how extreme someone sounds on the internet they're likely much more accepting in real life.

don_mondo wrote:Oh, I like seeing painted armies and all that, but I'm not going to discriminate against someone because they're just getting started and they're all excited about the game and they haven't painted their army yet. That's how we LOSE gamers. Encourage them, support them, help them, play them. But don't get all hoity-toity on them and tell them that you won't play them until they finish painting their army and basing it and all taht crap. That is NOT what building the hobby is all about.

To use your book movie analogy. Sure, I'd much rather read the book. But if I only have two hours to spare, then all I can manage to do is watch the movie. Soemday, when I get time, I'll go back and read taht book. And putting that in gaming terms? Play time is limited, so that's when I'm going to play, and if someone's army isn't painted, so be it. When I (or they) get time, sure, paint on that army as you can. But again, don't look down on someone because, for whatever reason, their army is unpainted. That's just elitist snobbery at it's worst! Seriously, read what you've written and see if you're not coming off as a paint nazi snob.

Wait, I have to sacrifice my experience and enjoyment in order to "bring new people into the hobby" now? My gaming time is limited too... Why should I sacrifice my experience by playing against unpainted models to make others happy? They only care about getting themselves a game and care not for thier opponent's experience so why shouldn't I be exactly the same way. Pushing unpainted minis on opponents is no more or less selfish than deciding not to play someone with unpainted minis because all you are doing is putting your instant gratification first.

I will gladly sit down at a painting table with a new person and help them paint and teach them techniques if they are new to the hobby, how is that elitist? Social activity is social activity be it gaming, painting, modeling or shooting the bull... All of it is the same hobby to me. There is more than "just a game".

I remember when GW refused to allow unpainted model in stores and FLGS forced painted minis to prevent theft as people would pop open blisters and glue them together quickly and they would be indistinguishable from other models in an unpainted army. That is just how it was. The only reason it is 'accepted' is because some people are flat out lazy and make up excuses about how busy they are and how limited time is. We are all busy, we all have responsibilities and some people still find time to paint. And those same responsibilities existed 10 years ago and people were capable of painting back then. So I accept no excuse because it all boils down to: "I don't feel like it and if it is not forced as a requirement then I won't do it because I can't wait a week or two to put a minimal paint job on my minis"

Personally, I choose to go to events that require painting since I enjoy meeting other modelers and painters and playing against painted armies. I do not sacrifice my opponent's experience because I show up with a fully painted and WYSIWYG army for him to play against. If I go to a place for open gaming that doesn not require painted figures, I often will play against others who have done some sorts of painting. And if the place is void of painting, I will set up shop at the painting table or simply game elsewhere. I never have a shortage of opponents or the ability to enjoy the hobby.

I would rather help someone paint figures for 2 hours than to have a bad game against some unpainted proxies.

I try to get stuff painted, but generally, not too much of a concern for me. The only army I really have any sort of standards with are for my Cryx, because Warmachine armies are small enough that if I don't really have an excuse to paint them. Not that I've ever played with unpainted WM models though...

nkelsch wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Oh, I like seeing painted armies and all that, but I'm not going to discriminate against someone because they're just getting started and they're all excited about the game and they haven't painted their army yet. That's how we LOSE gamers. Encourage them, support them, help them, play them. But don't get all hoity-toity on them and tell them that you won't play them until they finish painting their army and basing it and all taht crap. That is NOT what building the hobby is all about.

To use your book movie analogy. Sure, I'd much rather read the book. But if I only have two hours to spare, then all I can manage to do is watch the movie. Soemday, when I get time, I'll go back and read taht book. And putting that in gaming terms? Play time is limited, so that's when I'm going to play, and if someone's army isn't painted, so be it. When I (or they) get time, sure, paint on that army as you can. But again, don't look down on someone because, for whatever reason, their army is unpainted. That's just elitist snobbery at it's worst! Seriously, read what you've written and see if you're not coming off as a paint nazi snob.

Wait, I have to sacrifice my experience and enjoyment in order to "bring new people into the hobby" now? My gaming time is limited too... Why should I sacrifice my experience by playing against unpainted models to make others happy? They only care about getting themselves a game and care not for thier opponent's experience so why shouldn't I be exactly the same way. Pushing unpainted minis on opponents is no more or less selfish than deciding not to play someone with unpainted minis because all you are doing is putting your instant gratification first.

I will gladly sit down at a painting table with a new person and help them paint and teach them techniques if they are new to the hobby, how is that elitist? Social activity is social activity be it gaming, painting, modeling or shooting the bull... All of it is the same hobby to me. There is more than "just a game".

I remember when GW refused to allow unpainted model in stores and FLGS forced painted minis to prevent theft as people would pop open blisters and glue them together quickly and they would be indistinguishable from other models in an unpainted army. That is just how it was. The only reason it is 'accepted' is because some people are flat out lazy and make up excuses about how busy they are and how limited time is. We are all busy, we all have responsibilities and some people still find time to paint. And those same responsibilities existed 10 years ago and people were capable of painting back then. So I accept no excuse because it all boils down to: "I don't feel like it and if it is not forced as a requirement then I won't do it because I can't wait a week or two to put a minimal paint job on my minis"

Personally, I choose to go to events that require painting since I enjoy meeting other modelers and painters and playing against painted armies. I do not sacrifice my opponent's experience because I show up with a fully painted and WYSIWYG army for him to play against. If I go to a place for open gaming that doesn not require painted figures, I often will play against others who have done some sorts of painting. And if the place is void of painting, I will set up shop at the painting table or simply game elsewhere. I never have a shortage of opponents or the ability to enjoy the hobby.

I would rather help someone paint figures for 2 hours than to have a bad game against some unpainted proxies.

The problem is I've just finished painting 1K of marines, I'm about to expand to 1.5K, but what do I take? Dev's? Sternguard? Assault marines, I just don't know what!
I know I've a spare tac squad, let try them out as all three a couple of times, then I'll make a decision, paint and buy!

Maybe give people a little slack when they're starting out, if you were in their shoes wouldn't you appreciate it?

I am more of a hobbiest than a gamer. I would not refuse to play against unpainted. I also don't play strangers, just my friends. Since they're all working on their stuff to some degree, I know don't mind playing against completely unpainted armies. Obviously, that's what I've been doing for the last 2 years.

My preference is for painted stuff, though. Normally, my army list is around 80% painted or so. My list for the current round of our Planetary Empires campaign is completely painted, for the first time. Something I'm proud of and worked hard at. I can't wait until my friends can do the same. It makes the experience much better, IMHO. I give my friends a hard time about not painting between games. We've had a few painti-nights where we get together and watch crappy movies and paint our miniatures.

While I love painting and seeing a fully painted army on the field, I'm really freakin' lazy, so it rarely happens, even with my 'Jack heavy Warmachine lists. Doesn't help that I'm a bit of a collector as well, so I own most of the ranges that I play. I do have a few armies worth of painted models due to the yearly Hardcore tournament I attend, but I'll rarely play the same list twice these days.

As for playing against unpainted models, unless it's Hardcore I don't really give a crap. I'll gladly chat about the hobby, painting techniques, etc., and will even go so far as to paint stuff for other players (reasonable rates!), but the hobby isn't the game. If another player just isn't interested in painting, I'm not going to be TFG by forcing them to do something they hate (although I might nudge them towards one of several commission painters I know).

Reaver83 wrote:

The problem is I've just finished painting 1K of marines, I'm about to expand to 1.5K, but what do I take? Dev's? Sternguard? Assault marines, I just don't know what!
I know I've a spare tac squad, let try them out as all three a couple of times, then I'll make a decision, paint and buy!

Maybe give people a little slack when they're starting out, if you were in their shoes wouldn't you appreciate it?

Now you are talking 'playtesting' and 'proxies' which is a whole different kettle of fish. There is a huge difference when you ask someone to help you playtest something and general gaming. I would be glad to help you playtest something with proxies as you scale up to 1500 points. I would not want to play you if you were simply going to proxy all your plasmaguns as flamers because you simply want to change your army on the spot with proxies to tailor to combat my specific army. I see little fun in tailoring armies pre-game to specifically tackle your opponent. That is a crutch and makes the game not competitive or usually fun for both parties. Playtesting can also be 'not fun' because if your opponent isn't aware of how a unit works or isn't good with them the whole game can be spent muddling through that learning curve. Which is why it might be better to let your opponent know that this game would be a playtesting game so if they want a competitive game they might want to try someone else... or play 1000 points with models and units you know and are familiar with.

Sometimes talking to an opponent and realizing different people want different things out of a social activity like playing a game makes things go smoother... And sometimes it is better for two people not to play each other if they are looking for different things. Playtesting is an excellent example of something you tell an opponent about before a game and not feel any hard feelings if he is not interested (or possibly realizes he is not a good person to help with playtesting and doesn;t want to waste your time.)

I agree with don_mondo. Also, looking at where he's coming from (being an active part of a gaming club and getting others into the hobby) is, imho, a great way to go about gaming. Of course, in this environment you're not going to demand things be painted. It would turn people away that you're trying to help learn the game, etc.

However, I can also see nkelsch's point about wanting to play against painted armies. Among friends, who have worked hard to paint their own armies, I can see this standard. However, it'd be silly to go to a store to find a pick-up game, only to turn someone down if their army wasn't painted, since they're not part of your group and might not have the same standards.

An event is different, though- if it has a standard of being painted, then all of the armies should be... painted! No questions there

I don't think it's really something that people are that split over. Everyone wants things to be painted, it's just that some don't have the committed group of friends/gamers who paint their armies to play against, or aren't near enough to a large store to participate in painted-only events and the like. I don't know anyone who really wants to play with unpainted models. But as the owner of a fully painted army, I definitely plan to get some games in with my next one before it's painted. In fact, someone's starting an escalation league for just that purpose- getting people to support the store and start a new army, and letting them get some games in while they're getting it painted. It's a win-win, imho!

My Dad has gotten into the hobby somewhat recently, and before he got his army assembled we started playing. In the first few games all his troops were just the feet glued onto the bases. It was the funnest thing I've ever played against. I gave him a hard time and said all his profile stats should be halved. There were also a few Monty Python jokes.

Of course the game is a better experience with painted armies and great terrain. But in the absence of that I won't turn down a game against someone with an unpainted army and crappy terrain at the expense of not getting a game in.

nkelsh you have every right to sit on your high horse but you're just denying yourself potential games with people who you may learn a thing or two from. Or perhaps against people you could teach a thing or two too.

I don't have a problem with playing against unpainted armies. My only problem is people not playing WYSIWYG.

Of myself and those I play with, only one of us has a fully painted army while the rest of us are lucky to haev em at least half painted (or at the very least... base coated).
it really doesnt bother us if minis are painted or not, we only make a minor fuss if the mini isn't WYSIWYG, but even then that gets sorted in no time!
Game on people.... Game on!

Painted. Anything else and you should save your money and play with chits.

I won't use a figure in a game until I have painted it.

I don't really care if my opponents army is painted or not.

I must say that I think it looks really cool when both armies are painted, playing on nice terrain.

I would never refuse to play anyone at least not for arbitrary reasons like having an unpainted army. However, I bother my arse to try and make my army look presentable so why shouldn't others?

Mattlov wrote:I have no problems playing against and unpainted army, or playing with an unpainted army. It is a game.

The refusal to play against one is utterly ridiculous. You CAN'T support that position without being a total D-bag.

Well, we all play the game for different reasons. I never field unpainted models, and I don't like playing against unpainted armies. For me, the thing I really enjoy about this game is the spectacle. I enjoy seeing other people's armies and how mine look on the field of battle. In the same vein, my group will usually try and keep the table clear of dice, templates, books etc, and always use painted terrain. One of the things we really enjoy is how it looks. I consider 'how cool my army looks' much more important than 'how often it wins'.

Playing against an unpainted/primed army is just not as much fun for me, so I reserve the right to say that I'd prefer not to play. I won't do it in every situation, I might be up for a game against a friends test models etc, someone new getting into the game, whatever, but I'd certainly does affect how much enjoyment I get from the game, and I'd much rather play a painted army then an unpainted one.