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Yeah 17 dollars for a blood crusher is a great deal for that model.
Especially when you compare it to the original bulldog Juggernaut of Khorne for 12 dollars (approximate 1989 price).
20 years and a 5 dollar increase... wait a second that's 4 dollars less than inflation for a better model... well I just got gouged.

Where GW prices don't line up is in some of their older in-production minis. Like the Necron Immortals.

...and GI Joes aren't models, they are bulk produced toys.
GW models are a little below market in comparison to other serious model kits.

That 30 space marine kit was not the standard, nor the Ork or IG.
The old metals have a level of detail that could be compared to the new plastic kits.
Their old metal models are the standard of comparison, which were around 4 dollars for a single piece infantry model 2 decades ago.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I know it's a great deal in comparison to all that you get out of it, but 100 USD is an awful lot to drop at once for a parent/teen just introduced to the hobby.

But it isn't just $100. It's a $100 for the box.

Not included are the snippers, glue and files you need to assemble the miniatures, either. Hopefully they wouldn't be so silly as to buy them at the GW, but you know the salespeople will push newbies into doing just that.

So we are up to $150.

You need some sort of case to carry those minis in, you don't want them damaged and broken!

Wham! Another $75 bucks.

THIS is how GW robs people.

Your $100 starter just got them $225 for the other stuff you "need."

It reminds me of the time the local pet store had hamsters on sale, and my 3 year old talked Dad into buying one..

$4 for the Hamster..
$90 for the environment, bedding, food etc..

This topic is pointless, its the same people who like complainging about prices and whatnot, I think Reecius said it best, its a business, deal with with it.

As one of the guys who frequents my store said to someone he heard complaining about the prices, "if you think it costs too much, then your probably in the wrong hobby."


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also, comparing them to Mantic doesn't work, I've seen Mantics models, and most of them are nothing compared to the newer GW stuff, their skeletons have about 4 poses max, are mainly one pieces and are so boring and static looking.

Comparable company models would be Privateer, and its also got comparable prices, but then, nobody ever complains about them

caddock wrote:http://www.hasbro.com/risk/default.cfm?page=Products/Detail&product_id=22163 and I see it in stores for 19.99 all the time. In Canada, AoBR is $108 and IoB is $118.75. I can buy 5 copies of risk for that.

Wow my local store is just being insulting then, time to have a word with them. . .

The production that goes into a video game is massive. With GW products you do alot of the production, you have to pay for the paint, glue and other products . You get alot of playability with a video game, especially when you consider on line play. I know people that have easily racked up hours, days, weeks playing video games. How often do most people play more than a couple games of GW products a week? Comparing a video game to GW is apples and oranges.

Sergeant Horse wrote:This topic is pointless, its the same people who like complainging about prices and whatnot, I think Reecius said it best, its a business, deal with with it.

As one of the guys who frequents my store said to someone he heard complaining about the prices, "if you think it costs too much, then your probably in the wrong hobby."

I hope the store manager didn't hear that guy belittling his customers opinions. We've had problems with people who do the same thing, they drive business away.

Sorry, but I'm laughing my ass off right now at you guys. So much talk about business strategies, and why a set with over 300.00 in stuff is overpriced at 100.00)

I can walk upstairs and watch parent after parent drop 100.00 on videogames all day long. And then watch the kids trade them in a week later for 20 bucks in store credit. Or walk over to TRU and take a look at what the average parent is buying as they walk out. 100.00 is nothing these days.

I've got 50 of these on order, and will probably up it to 100 now that I've gotten a closer look at the set today. You guys can speculate and play business expert all you want. I've got to make decisions on this game that affect me putting food on the table for my family, and I think the thing is going to sell great.

Back to the negative pontification, don't let me slow you down.)

We all complain about prices but facts are facts. GW and minature gaming is not meant to be a cheap hobby. Period. Its not like we are buying food or things of necessity. So its up to everyone where you draw the line. If you think the cost gets to high, don't buy it, go buy a video game consult, the game, the power strip, the tv, etc. Its the same argument!

Whatever your hobby is your going to drop cash to do it. Your a gamer. You switch to a new system, you need: the rules, the models, maybe templates, paints, glue, etc. Maybe you have another hobby game, so you have a case and all that stuff. Compare that too...

I go buy a PS3. So I hook it up to my TV guess what I spent to do that? $200 for the PS4, $45-50 a game, the cost for the TV $600 that I paid 3 years ago, the power strip, a weekly cable bill... hey i'm over the $300 for the hobby set...

Just my opinion, its all relative. I like my little plastic men. I have my armies, they have brought me years of fun, entertainment, and met a few good friends. That worth it to me. I also recognize, its not worth it to others, and I hope they find something they enjoy.

Belphegor wrote:Hmmm.
My 60 dollar Space Hulk run through the CPI Inflation Calculator says: 2010 -- $105.57 dollar Space Hulk.
Which came with less stuff than the new fantasy box set.

Yeah, I'm not feeling the price gouge.

You need to recalibrate the calculator then since the price you are basing the inflation off of was not $60. It was $40. Second edition was $50-$60 (I am not sure what was actual MSRP for second edition because all the shops I frequented at that time had it for varying cost between the two).

That same CPI claculator says that same $40 in 1989 is now worth $70.

There is no contest however that the products within the third edition are head and shoulders above previous editions in quality. Though I have not had a problem with tilewarpage in 1st or 2nd editions as I do with 3rd edition, so I am going to side with price gouging here.

Yeah 17 dollars for a blood crusher is a great deal for that model.
Especially when you compare it to the original bulldog Juggernaut of Khorne for 12 dollars (approximate 1989 price).
20 years and a 5 dollar increase... wait a second that's 4 dollars less than inflation for a better model... well I just got gouged.

Where GW prices don't line up is in some of their older in-production minis. Like the Necron Immortals.

...and GI Joes aren't models, they are bulk produced toys.
GW models are a little below market in comparison to other serious model kits.

That 30 space marine kit was not the standard, nor the Ork or IG.
The old metals have a level of detail that could be compared to the new plastic kits.
Their old metal models are the standard of comparison, which were around 4 dollars for a single piece infantry model 2 decades ago.

Juggernaut of Khone was not 12 Dollars in 1989 i've still got one in a blister from after 1993 $7.99. Expensive at the time because it was a big heavy chunk of solid metal. Metal is expensive or at least that is always the excuse that GW gives. So now they are plastic and more expensive...yes detail is better, but technology has improved vastly, detail should be better. I very much doubt they were using cad in the old shops which cuts down on design time.

GI Joes are pretty detailed now. Each one is made up many more parts that any GW miniature. Hasbro nips them off the sprue, assembles them and paints them. GW just molds them and puts them in a box.

The plastic is cheap.....i mean really cheap, size really should play no part of pricing. Production is minimal. The most expensive part has to be design. Spread that out ove the run......lets say imperial guard cadians. Now of course I dont have the numbers, but i bet they have sold 20 times more boxes of cadians then they ever sold of the old RTB marines. Yet they still raise the price on them.

Why? Because GW hears a few people who have no idea what a great company GW used to be, make crazy comparisons (the old metal blood crusher was $50 so these plastic ones are a steal). If GW thinks they can get away with a price increase they will. Everyone of you that supports GW's price gouging is just telling them to continue to raise prices.

Ahhh, I can remember Khorne Juggernaught riding Space Marines that cost $20 in 1995. Juggernaught and rider are both ass in comparison to now. And a $3 reduction, for lighter and more resilient models 15 years later is totally gouging......

It's a business. If the market will bear it then it's not gouging. As for getting in new players it's the job of vets who love their hobby to bring it to more people too. If you don't enjoy GW or their prices then don't sweat it. Find something else. New blood will keep coming in. Brought in by people who enjoy the hobby. The more I look at it it's the people that have been "playing for 20+ years" (use condescending voice here) that have the most problem with the current set-up. You can't make most vets happy so GW doesn't try anymore.

And having sold Video games and GW product I can tell you parents truly like the idea of GW more even though it costs more. Especially if little timmy has a friend getting into it too. Personal experience only. But consistant with people I know still doing it.

mikhaila wrote:Sorry, but I'm laughing my ass off right now at you guys. So much talk about business strategies, and why a set with over 300.00 in stuff is overpriced at 100.00)

I'm not going to argue the business side of it. Fools and money... and too many parents are fools. I'd argue the philosophical view on this and say its not that players are getting $300 worth of models for a $100 its that players overpay by $200 for $100 worth of models adding to GW's sentiments that they can get even more. Great deal and nice models. I can't blame GW for milking the hobby like they do, but its simple statistics that higher prices on entry level products constrains entry even if only a little.

"it's not supposed to be a cheap hobby", Why not, it was many years ago, metal got expensive so they switched to plastic which is cheaper. What about the game screams it should be expensive. It's plastic army men!!!

"It was always expensive, you knew that getting into". No, no it wasn't at all, I used to get 6 sometimes 7 metal marauder dark elves in a blister for $5.50 (which I still think look great compared to the plastic dark elf warriors we have today...crap). It's plastic army men!!!!

Again in a company like Hasbro put out the same product it would be much cheaper....they would have had movies out years ago to get people into it (even mutant chronicles got a movie, it sucked, but still) and it would be selling like hotcakes. But how many of you would want that? You want to feel like some kind of geek elitists, classic problem in this community. If it was cheap and popular you might actually have to deal with ........normal people.

Please dont tell me how a big company like hasbro would ruin the game. The game has already been streamlined to the point where it is no longer a tactical game. Its all about suicide melta groups anyway.

Mantics first miniatures are not gold standard? Well for first miniatures they are. I'd put them up against alot of gw multipose but really only one straight standing pose works miniatures.

I'm of the belief that this starter set is adequately priced. However, if they somehow raise it by another $20 or so then I may change my mind...

I guess in response to Hellfury & Andrew1975 I will have to raise my fist and -scream- "Damn you allied hobbies!"
(Though I may be wrong about the price I paid for Space Hulk.)

Does anyone remember the MSRP on the Metal Terminators and Patriarchs from 1989?

-typo edit-

Belphegor wrote:I guess in response to Hellfury & Andrew1975 I will have to raise my fist and screw "Damn you allied hobbies!"
(Though I may be wrong about the price I paid for Space Hulk.)

Does anyone remember the MSRP on the Metal Terminators and Patriarchs from 1989?

I do recall the price for the genestealer patriarch. $7.50 for the running patriarch and came with 3 genestealer familiars.
I cant help you with the metal terminators though. The earliest price for them I recall was during late second edition when they were $35. Orginal RT termies I have no idea about.

Back in the day you didn't see 50-man blobs of IG and it didn't take the Ork player an hour to move his bazillion greenskins across the board. That's the difference to me, the size of the game has increased....the game tables feel a lot smaller now.




Damn, I'm old.


Edit:
As to the rising prices, etc. I'll continue to pay until it's not fun anymore then I'll dump all my toys in the trash.

Reccius' post = truth, justice, and win. Vote with your wallets people, as that is the only tru epower you have to influence GW. Find a herd to swim with, mebbe you can do sometyhing as a mass. Caue GW dont give a clanrat's ass about you as an individual. They are a business.

HiveFleet wrote:well, still look at what you get

2x units of 20 clanrats = $64
1 warlord = $12
1 warlock = $12
warpfire thrower = $15
Plague Mortar = $15
2 Rat Ogres = $30 (minus the giant rats from the old set)

= $148 for the rats alone.

High Elves.

Griffon = $45 if you are lucky
Swordmaster = now plastic? $35 +
Sea Guard = now plastic? $25 +
Ellyrian reavers = now plastic? $25+
mage = $12 +

= $142 for the high elves, estimated conservatively.

so, we are looking at $300 worth of Models alone for a $99 set? I am still impressed, and I think its a great deal.

it's not THAT accurate. you're comparing some metal models with plastics (which are generally cheaper) and also comparing current multi-pose plastics with mono-pose snap together kits. while the starter set minis are nice, they're worth LESS than their normal line equivalents (see the secondary market and you'll see how much less aobr marines/dreads and orks go for compared with the normal kits). starter sets should be a loss leader to get people INTO the hobby; you then proceed to suck them dry until they give up.

is it still a good buy compared to the normal plastic line? sure. will it convince someone who isn't planning on playing skaven or high elves to drop $100 on it to just try the rules set? less likely than if they had priced it at a current gen video game price of $60. i was planning on buying the new fantasy set but don't plan to now at $100. i'd rather just get a small rulebook on ebay or a local store that is willing to split the box up instead. two other 40k players i know were thinking about trying it but won't now that the price has been announced.

evilsponge wrote:This isn't inflation at work, just good old fashioned price gouging.

No, it's "price correction". At no point did GW claim that their across-the-board 50% price hikes were because of inflation. As for gouging, I think you've taken for granted how cheap it was for so long. Yes, I said it, GW has been keeping their prices LOW all these years, thus the increase now.

As mentioned, everything else in the world has gotten a lot more expensive over time. The price of rice has quadruped in the last 5 years, the price of gold has tripled, the price of gas has doubled. The fact that GW went for 5 years without much rise in prices and then only increased by 50% actually makes their price hike CHEAP in comparison to everything else.

Yeah, hiking the prices all at once may or may not have been a good idea, and yes, increasing price will make it harder for people to start new armies (so will things like the global recession). That said, it's hard to balk at spending $90 on a starter set for your child when it costs you and your spouse and your child $30 to go to a movie nowadays.

As has been said a billion times here - new players don't know what the old prices were, so this is the only price as far as they are concerned. That's why it will sell.

HiveFleet wrote:so, we are looking at $300 worth of Models alone for a $99 set? I am still impressed, and I think its a great deal.

Except no new player knows any of that, making everything you said essentially irrelevant.

Andrew1975 wrote:The production that goes into a video game is massive. With GW products you do alot of the production, you have to pay for the paint, glue and other products . You get alot of playability with a video game, especially when you consider on line play. I know people that have easily racked up hours, days, weeks playing video games. How often do most people play more than a couple games of GW products a week? Comparing a video game to GW is apples and oranges.

No its not both are something I spend my extra income on so it is not an apples and oranges comparison. And i know people that rack up hours, days, weeks, and years playing GW games. That has nothing to do with anything. What is important is how many hours of enjoyment you get from a product compared to your total investment in that product. For some people GW gives a good return on that equation and for some people it doesn't. The same could be said for video games. It doesn't matter at all what kind of production goes into a video game as compared to GW.

I find video games to be a good return for my investment because I usually spend somewhere between 40-100 hours on each game I buy (I only buy 4-6 games a year so it isn't that much) and I usually buy them used so I spend about $1.00 to $0.50 an hour on my video game habit. I think that is pretty good. Now I probably spend about a thousand dollars a year on miniatures (they aren't all GW but lets just pretend they are). So if I play one day a week say for 5 hours a week and probably I play 3 times a month then 180 hours of playing every year, then I probably spend about 6 hours a week doing general hobby related stuff (like painting and converting so that comes to about 300 some odd hours a year, so essentially I probably do about 500 man hours of hobby related stuff every year for a cost of $1000 dollars a year so I spend about $2 an hour on my GW hobby. Now I don't really find that to be all that bad either.

And more importantly I could stop spending money on my GW hobby and still have a wide variety of new gaming experiences while that would be much harder to do with video games and much less convenient.

Belphegor wrote:I guess in response to Hellfury & Andrew1975 I will have to raise my fist and screw "Damn you allied hobbies!"
(Though I may be wrong about the price I paid for Space Hulk.)

Does anyone remember the MSRP on the Metal Terminators and Patriarchs from 1989?

If I remember correctly most of the miniatures boxes cost the same whether it was the plastic marines, harlequins, terminators or a regiment of renown they were all $19.99 at the store and $18 if you ordered them from a discount store. Most of the big box games (Space hulk, space marine, blood bowl. Etc) were $55 you could probably get them for $50 at a discount store. Blisters of lead miniatures were packed 3-6 in a blister for $5.50. You could get a 5 man aspect squad for $5.50, now its what $30. You cant tell me those old Jess Goodwin sculpts were bad. In fact the Pheonix lords are the same sculpt, they were $5.50 when they came out, now they are $17. GW has more than made the design costs off them, all they are paying for now is metal and making new molds. Yes making new molds cost money, but GW uses those molds until they are dust...i've seen some models that really should never have passed quality control.



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No its not both are something I spend my extra income on so it is not an apples and oranges comparison. And i know people that rack up hours, days, weeks, and years playing GW games. That has nothing to do with anything. What is important is how many hours of enjoyment you get from a product compared to your total investment in that product. For some people GW gives a good return on that equation and for some people it doesn't. The same could be said for video games. It doesn't matter at all what kind of production goes into a video game as compared to GW.

I find video games to be a good return for my investment because I usually spend somewhere between 40-100 hours on each game I buy (I only buy 4-6 games a year so it isn't that much) and I usually buy them used so I spend about $1.00 to $0.50 an hour on my video game habit. I think that is pretty good. Now I probably spend about a thousand dollars a year on miniatures (they aren't all GW but lets just pretend they are). So if I play one day a week say for 5 hours a week and probably I play 3 times a month then 180 hours of playing every year, then I probably spend about 6 hours a week doing general hobby related stuff (like painting and converting so that comes to about 300 some odd hours a year, so essentially I probably do about 500 man hours of hobby related stuff every year for a cost of $1000 dollars a year so I spend about $2 an hour on my GW hobby. Now I don't really find that to be all that bad either.

And more importantly I could stop spending money on my GW hobby and still have a wide variety of new gaming experiences while that would be much harder to do with video games and much less convenient.

So if your math stands you count building your miniatures as hobby time, but you are not including the costs of your other materials. Also Video games come complete. You don't have to build or paint them. I've never heard of a video game that you had to finish programming before you could even start it.

Play time and hobby time are completely different aspects. Remember that GW passes ALL assembly and paint costs onto the customer, they just pump out sprue! Some people like it some people dont (painting is my favorite part anymore) but if assembly is required those costs including time and materials should be taken into account. For those reasons video games are much cheaper than GW products.

While I have known people to play 36 hours of video games pretty much straight, i find very few people can do it with a miniature game. We used to have 24 hour games during Christmas break college (slaughter claus) with about 10 people on a side. Half the time it isn't your turn and you are BSing with everyone else. Im not sure that we ever really finished a game.


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I remember when GW and Milton Bradely had a short love affair. MB was releasing these games with tones of plastic miniatures, many that were better than the GW equivalent at the time. Battle Masters and Heroquest being the big ones here in the states, I know they launched advance space crusade in the UK with the coolest chaos dreadnought. Battle masters was $25 even less when it went on clearance. It came with a butt load of miniatures.

* 1 Battle mat, 4 1/2 x 5 feet
* 1 Tower

The Imperial Army - 11 Units:
+ 3 Lord Knights mounted (1 unit)
+ 9 Imperial Knights mounted (3 units)
+ 15 Imperial Men-at-Arms (3 units)
+ 10 Imperial Archers (2 units)
+ 5 Imperial Crossbowmen (1 unit)
+ 1 Mighty Cannon with 2 crew (1 unit)
o The Chaos Army - 14 Units:
+ 3 Champions Of Chaos mounted (1 unit)
+ 10 Chaos Warrios (2 units)
+ 10 Chaos Archers (2 units)
+ 10 Orcs (2 units)
+ 10 Goblins (2 Units)
+ 6 Wolf Riders (2 units)
+ 10 Beast men
+ 1 Ogre Champion (1 unit)

That's 21 cavalry models 80 infantry 1 ogre and 1 war machine (with crew) plus a awesome plastic tower . SO YEAH 3 BLOOD CRUSHERS FOR $50 IS CRAZY. Yeah not as good as GW now, but better than GW then. It's a value comparison, they did it then, they could do it now.

So don't tell me that a company like Hasbro, which owns MB, could not put out the same quality for a better price. I'm sure their capabilities are much better than GW.

Now apparently GW's customer service is much better than it used to be, when you got a bad mini before you were pretty S.O.L., from the stories I've heard now they bend over backwards. That costs more than you think, but does not excuse a 600% increase in 20 years.

I heard there was going to be some use of Callidus assassins in the EU and other world wide governments to have Warhammer made a mandatory GCSE subject (or whatever other things useless countries take at that age).

No, seriously now..with the general appearance of the miniatures becoming more cartoon/cliche like, the prices being raked up and some of the wonderful rules being written up to make sure they alienate as many of the old school as possible who wouldn't want to start Warhammer? I can't see why GW had financial issues (i'll ignore the obvious drop in the LOTR market for the convenience of my current point) or are even considering product attraction as a problem because they scream loyalty to me.

I don't understand why people get so aggressive and derisive when someone says that they think something isn't good value for money. I've decided the starter isn't worth it for me (if it had orcs or dwarves in it it might be) so I'm not going to buy it. I think a lot of the newer releases are not worth it, so I don't buy them. *shrug* It's not a moral judgement, it's just what I think is value for money. If it happens to enough other people, that'll be bad for GW. Then again, maybe it won't happen. But why get so narky about it?

I don't understand why people get so aggressive and derisive when someone says that they think something isn't good value for money. I've decided the starter isn't worth it for me (if it had orcs or dwarves in it it might be) so I'm not going to buy it. I think a lot of the newer releases are not worth it, so I don't buy them. *shrug* It's not a moral judgement, it's just what I think is value for money. If it happens to enough other people, that'll be bad for GW. Then again, maybe it won't happen. But why get so narky about it?

I don't know either, it may have to do with an illusion of exclusivity that is really prevalent in many subcultures. Some people feel special when they pay more for things. "ha ha look at you with your black reach marines, i paid $50 for my 5 stern guard, that makes me a real gamer" Eh whatever, I still use my hordes of old plastic beakies, they kill just as well.

I think it is also a fear of the general public, if the game was available to everyone then lots of little kids would play, most adults don't want their strategic combat simulation game to be misconstrued with poke mon. "We are cool, these are war games not kids games."

I just think GW is in the same place the American car manufacturers were a few years ago, no real competition has made them pretty fat and complacent. They have gotten to big for their own good...GW stores I'm talking to you. GW stores to me only exist to force people to play with GW miniatures (my warzone Bauhaus imperial guard would never fly there) . I'd rather play at a friends house with a beer, or at a independent store any day.

I think back to the GW store I ran (in Sydney, Australia) 15 years ago. We'd regularly sell 20-30 "starter sets" of 2nd Edition 40K and 4th Edition Warhammer each month. Those boxed sets were $140 each.

One thing we made sure to do was tell the potential customer about the hobby, the joy of the hobby, and explain to them the amount they could expect to outlay for hobby materials (paints, clippers, glue, etc) and for their first army.

Some people said "Pffft, that's ridiculous!" and walk out. Some people would say "Thanks for the honesty, maybe later." and walk out.

Some people would say "Thanks for all the information, this sounds like a great hobby, let's get started" - those sales were often $200+ with the right equipment to get started on a life long love affair with toy soldiers.

Honesty is key, and if the staff in GW stores are honest about the costs and potential enjoyment of getting into the hobby, those who are interested and will stay in the hobby won't be worried about the price.

It's when you try to trick the customer, or be slick, is when you misrepresent the hobby and the purchase and "recruit" those who were never really interested in the hobby to begin with. Quick bucks that can lead to a lean future in your store. I've seen that happen, when a great "salesman" sold 40 40K boxes in a month, but had only a couple of those folks buying armies three months later.

Just my two cents.

Cheers
Dave

$165 in Australia. Wow thats gonna take me a while to save for lol. Stupid GW and there ridiculous prices. Yet I'm still going to buy it -.-

H.B.M.C. wrote:As has been said a billion times here - new players don't know what the old prices were, so this is the only price as far as they are concerned. That's why it will sell.

HiveFleet wrote:so, we are looking at $300 worth of Models alone for a $99 set? I am still impressed, and I think its a great deal.

Except no new player knows any of that, making everything you said essentially irrelevant.

Speaking of irrelevant...

Because EVERY new player buys the starter box with no previous exposure to any miniature game or kit ever.