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SlaveToDorkness wrote:Is it just me or is that Wolf list kinda dumb? Of course, who am I to question The Great and Terrible Stelek...lool

Not at ALL. The list has MSU + enough units to threaten the midfield and your opponents backfield all while still having a firebase back home AND having both shooting and CC threat. It also seems really flexible having the ability to infiltrate scouts or flank them, deep strike speeders or hang them back.

All I can say bout the game though is that it was a great one.

Hey folks!

I'm on the road from D.C. back to Florida today - I'm in NC right now headed south, pulling off for a few minutes so that we can grab some lunch. I'll get my Whiskey Challenge Battle report written hopefully tonight when we get home, and follow up with the rest of the batreps this week / next week / this weekend etc as time presents itself to do so.

One (rules) question:

Turn 1:
One rhino moves forward and dumps their space puppies out so the IST can jump in the now empty rhino...giving Stelek a scoring rhino in the center of the board,

I thought you couldn't have one unit get out and another get into the same vehicle in the same phase. Am I remembering the rule wrong?

Before anyone jumps on me, if I had my ruebook at work, I *would* look it up myself . : )

Thanks.

Eric

I was the reporter watching the game.


MVBrant is almost right in the order of things. I didn't include the full details of the entire discussion in the report because well frankly I didn't feel a live battle report was the place for it. The players worked it out amicably amongst themselves and I wanted to pretty much leave it at that. But to be exact, here is how it went down.

1. Their is a big bastion in the center of the board. Both players agreed that it was impassable.
2. Both players deploy their stuff thinking that it was impassable.
3. Someone from the crowd mentions that tourney rules say no terrain is impassable.
-In hindsight they probably shouldn't have said anything as both players agreed to how to play and it's really bad form to comment on other peoples game.
-However, once they determined that it shouldn't be impassable, they agreed to keeping it that way because, after all, thats how the rest of the tournament was going to be played. They didn't discuss the terrain any more and left it at that.
4. Dash moved, and said something to the effect of "I'm moving through this terrain, how do you want me to represent it?" Stelek said something to the effect of "Just put dice around which parts should be outside of the terrain".
-At this point, Stelek assumed that dash was on top of the bastion with parts hanging out over the edge, while Dash assumed his battlewagons were inside the terrain with only it's butt showing.
5. Stelek moved to shoot and get melta gun shots off. When it came to shooting thats when both players realized they had different assumptions about where the battle wagons actually were (on top of the bastion or inside the bastion)
-Although slightly irritated because he was out of position to shoot and felt it was kind of BS, Stelek let it go and proceeded with his shooting phase with the assumption that the battle wagons were inside the terrain out of LOS.
6. Sometime after the shooting phase a judge was summoned just to clarify how it will actually work for the real games tomorrow, and that's when they determined that the battle wagon should have indeed been placed on top of the bastion in LoS of everything.
7. Both players agreed, and the game continued on, and the TO's made sure that it was clear how that worked the next day


Ultimately the rules issue wouldn't have effected anything anyways. The melta-guns that would have shot at the battlewagon shot at other stuff and either missed, failed to penetrate, or Dash made his KFF saves. Although Stelek was a bit irritated, he rolled with the punches and they proceeded to have a great game and earned a lot of respect for each other at the end of the game.


As far as the final victory points, I don't know what they actually were. Stelek may well have had more than a 250 point spread...but it wasn't much more as he had lots of stuff dead. I thought I heard Stelek say that they might be under 250 points, but he had him on straight VP's. But it was very late at that point, and I was tired so my brain registered 4'th tie breaker and ran with it.

Wow people all still annoyed at stelek. I just read this for the lolz but sounds like it went well.

I understand it is a rules change, but it's one that increases the integrity of the event ... not decreases it.

If the goal is to make everything equal, that is fine, and I understand how you can make the argument that it increases the integrity of the event.

The rules for terrain exist for a reason, and they should be followed.

I would personally disagree with increasing the integrity of the event by leveling the playing field on terrain, it should be what it is, a player has no control over the terrain he could have, just like he had no control over the type of army he faces. I think it hurts you more to have terrain become more ambiguous because it forces your players to adapt to your particular style of terrain interpretations, which I think is evident in this fight. If it was just treated as an intact building, there wouldn't have even been an argument. The only thing a player should expect is 25% terrain coverage with some blocking terrain.

This is just my opinion and like I said, I have huge respect for what the Nova has done for competitive players. It has proved the you can have your cake and eat it to, that sportsmanship scores are the roaster illusion people like me have been saying for years now, and you proved that there is such a thing as a healthy competitive scene. You have my respect for that.

Playing devil's advocate, I would say that isn't necessarily true. Now, I don't agree with Stelek about Orks, but in his defense his assumption about that terrain piece put him in a real bad spot in that game.

Both Dash and Stelek can argue all day long about where the game could have/ should have gone considering the interpretations and assumptions made, at the end of the day the results stand.

My point is that, as a reader of Stelek's blog (more because there is very few good competitive 40k resources on the net, I disagree with him on a number of issues) is that Stelek has said so many bad things about Orks, that the only way for him to be justified in the things that he has said is to almost totally blow out Dash of Pepper. Here is probably his most scathing post on the subject:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/03/editorial-why-orks-suck.html

Dash says that Orks are a plenty competitive codex in the right hands, and at the end of the day, he went to the 4th tie breaker before loosing. If this was an Aard Boyz or Adepticon style mission, it would have been a straight draw. Considering also Stelek was playing an army from one of the most competitive 40k codexes right now, a list that subsequently took 3 in the whole tournament, you have to give props for pulling that off.

Both players made their points, whatever needed to be made. Dash showed orks to be competitive in good hands, Stelek got his win. Bottom line, sounds like a good game, all that could have been hoped.

Mahu wrote:

Dash says that Orks are a plenty competitive codex in the right hands, and at the end of the day, he went to the 4th tie breaker before loosing. If this was an Aard Boyz or Adepticon style mission, it would have been a straight draw. Considering also Stelek was playing an army from one of the most competitive 40k codexes right now, a list that subsequently took 3 in the whole tournament, you have to give props for pulling that off.

Especially, when you consider that Dash had the same record in the actual event the next day (4-0) and made it to the same round in the finals as Stelek (round 6). Stelek and Dash each got beat by the players that would play in the final round. I think it's safe to say that Dash made his point.

Mahu wrote:

My point is that, as a reader of Stelek's blog (more because there is very few good competitive 40k resources on the net, I disagree with him on a number of issues) is that Stelek has said so many bad things about Orks, that the only way for him to be justified in the things that he has said is to almost totally blow out Dash of Pepper. Here is probably his most scathing post on the subject:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/03/editorial-why-orks-suck.html

Dash says that Orks are a plenty competitive codex in the right hands, and at the end of the day, he went to the 4th tie breaker before loosing. If this was an Aard Boyz or Adepticon style mission, it would have been a straight draw. Considering also Stelek was playing an army from one of the most competitive 40k codexes right now, a list that subsequently took 3 in the whole tournament, you have to give props for pulling that off.

I agree. I think this shows that Orks are certainly competitive. In fact I would say that Dash lost because his list wasn't entirely optimal. If it had been he might be looking at a win instead of a narrow loss.

Kevin Nash wrote:

Mahu wrote:

My point is that, as a reader of Stelek's blog (more because there is very few good competitive 40k resources on the net, I disagree with him on a number of issues) is that Stelek has said so many bad things about Orks, that the only way for him to be justified in the things that he has said is to almost totally blow out Dash of Pepper. Here is probably his most scathing post on the subject:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/03/editorial-why-orks-suck.html

Dash says that Orks are a plenty competitive codex in the right hands, and at the end of the day, he went to the 4th tie breaker before loosing. If this was an Aard Boyz or Adepticon style mission, it would have been a straight draw. Considering also Stelek was playing an army from one of the most competitive 40k codexes right now, a list that subsequently took 3 in the whole tournament, you have to give props for pulling that off.

I agree. I think this shows that Orks are certainly competitive. In fact I would say that Dash lost because his list wasn't entirely optimal. If it had been he might be looking at a win instead of a narrow loss.

Yeah, I think Stelek actually admitted that Dash could have won if he had a better list.

MagickalMemories wrote:One (rules) question:

Turn 1:
One rhino moves forward and dumps their space puppies out so the IST can jump in the now empty rhino...giving Stelek a scoring rhino in the center of the board,

I thought you couldn't have one unit get out and another get into the same vehicle in the same phase. Am I remembering the rule wrong?

Before anyone jumps on me, if I had my ruebook at work, I *would* look it up myself . : )

Thanks.

Eric

The same unit can't get embark and disembark (or vice versa) in the same turn. Maybe that's what you're thinking of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Snikkyd wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:

Mahu wrote:

My point is that, as a reader of Stelek's blog (more because there is very few good competitive 40k resources on the net, I disagree with him on a number of issues) is that Stelek has said so many bad things about Orks, that the only way for him to be justified in the things that he has said is to almost totally blow out Dash of Pepper. Here is probably his most scathing post on the subject:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/03/editorial-why-orks-suck.html

Dash says that Orks are a plenty competitive codex in the right hands, and at the end of the day, he went to the 4th tie breaker before loosing. If this was an Aard Boyz or Adepticon style mission, it would have been a straight draw. Considering also Stelek was playing an army from one of the most competitive 40k codexes right now, a list that subsequently took 3 in the whole tournament, you have to give props for pulling that off.

I agree. I think this shows that Orks are certainly competitive. In fact I would say that Dash lost because his list wasn't entirely optimal. If it had been he might be looking at a win instead of a narrow loss.

Yeah, I think Stelek actually admitted that Dash could have won if he had a better list.

Wasn't that the center of the entire debate, though? The weakness of the list? Or was it the Ork codex in general? And I think the discussion is beginning to take away some credibility from Stelek. After all, he did win. Why is everyone so focused on what -would- have happened rather than what did happen? I dunno. Maybe it's because Stelek is frowned upon here and this is Dash's "turf". But "If it had been x tournament" or "if Dash had taken x" or "if he had done this or that or the other" is all well and good, but it wasn't Tournament X, Dash didn't take X and Stelek eeked out a win. Grats to him, imo, rather than trying to figure out how many ways it could be considered that he didn't win.

Anyone find it significant that the event was won by a 16 year old?

Nurglitch wrote:Anyone find it significant that the event was won by a 16 year old?

Think it's just you.

There were some 12-14 year olds, it would be significant if THEY had placed well, but 16 leaves enough room to have enough smarts, and enough time to have played the game for a reasonable amount of time, I mean I know kids that have been playing for over twice the time as alot of adults who pick up this game.

Granted, their armies usually aren't as pretty.

I did honestly think that Stelek or Dashofpepper were going to win though, I was looking forward to another match between them too.

Was it expected? No. Significant? Less so.

...not really. Explain?

Nurglitch wrote:Anyone find it significant that the event was won by a 16 year old?

No, but I find it significant that:
1. ITG Stelek couldn't beat Dash's Orks with his uber Spaz Woofz, had to go to 4th tiebreaker to claim a marginal "win".
2. ITG Stelek couldn't beat a 16-yo kid

The batrep was very helpful. Based on this event, along with his game against Parker, it seems to me that Stelek isn't nearly as good of a player as he (and his fan club) thinks he is. He didn't win out, despite taking a top-tier Codex. I wonder what sort of excuses he'll be making...


Anyhow, major congratulations to Dash for taking Orks to what would otherwise be a dead draw against ITG Stelek fielding a WAAC list.

Don't worry Dash, you can still win!

Just have to believe in da hart of da Orks!

WAAAAAGGGGGHHHH!

And it looked like a decided momentum changer when Dash finally lost the last of his BWs and had little mobility with which to contest against Stelek.

It sucks that Dash lost, mainly because I think Stelek is an asshat for how he trashes other armies. But I have to say it was a nice read. Man those guys beat the piss out of each other eh? Now those are the games I enjoy most. When its just a slug fest, count me in.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Anyone find it significant that the event was won by a 16 year old?

No, but I find it significant that:
1. ITG Stelek couldn't beat Dash's Orks with his uber Spaz Woofz, had to go to 4th tiebreaker to claim a marginal "win".
2. ITG Stelek couldn't beat a 16-yo kid

The batrep was very helpful. Based on this event, along with his game against Parker, it seems to me that Stelek isn't nearly as good of a player as he (and his fan club) thinks he is. He didn't win out, despite taking a top-tier Codex. I wonder what sort of excuses he'll be making...


Anyhow, major congratulations to Dash for taking Orks to what would otherwise be a dead draw against ITG Stelek fielding a WAAC list.

If you read what he said about Nova, he didn't make an excuse. He said Dash was a great player and that Tony (the 16 year old) was a great general and he was happy to have had a challenge. And as Mannahnin said earlier, Stelek actually won on 3rd tie breaker >250 VP but it was reported inaccurately at first. Dash will have to confirm that.

He went to Nova and played against some tough folks and came in third out of a field of 90 or so. How did you do?

Don't try to make him out to be a boogie man. He's just a guy. He put his money (for flights) where is mouth is and went. Took a bunch of balls considering the Stelliehate out there. I don't know that a lot of other ITGs would do the same.

I thought Stelek was supposed to bring Tau? Not taking anything away from him but being able to tailor build a list with what is currently the most dominant tournament codex is a distinct advantage. I could have sworn I read somewhere that he was going to beat Orks with Tau to show how much "orks suck"?

Regarding ages of individuals that entered -

Tony K's (the winner) brother: Andy K, went 3-1 in Day 1.

He is 14. As expected by now, Andy (the 14 yr old) was using Blood Angels

Just pointing that out as I know them both. Andy I couldn't believe he got that far from how I played him before (like a year ago) - Too rash and headlong into a game no real forethought.

Tony I recall we drew our games as we tried SW out with their Old Codex before this new one was released.

BladeWalker wrote:I thought Stelek was supposed to bring Tau? Not taking anything away from him but being able to tailor build a list with what is currently the most dominant tournament codex is a distinct advantage. I could have sworn I read somewhere that he was going to beat Orks with Tau to show how much "orks suck"?

I believe this changed because he didn't want to bring two armies. Dash might know.

pretre wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Anyone find it significant that the event was won by a 16 year old?

No, but I find it significant that:
1. ITG Stelek couldn't beat Dash's Orks with his uber Spaz Woofz, had to go to 4th tiebreaker to claim a marginal "win".
2. ITG Stelek couldn't beat a 16-yo kid

The batrep was very helpful. Based on this event, along with his game against Parker, it seems to me that Stelek isn't nearly as good of a player as he (and his fan club) thinks he is. He didn't win out, despite taking a top-tier Codex. I wonder what sort of excuses he'll be making...


Anyhow, major congratulations to Dash for taking Orks to what would otherwise be a dead draw against ITG Stelek fielding a WAAC list.

If you read what he said about Nova, he didn't make an excuse. He said Dash was a great player and that Tony (the 16 year old) was a great general and he was happy to have had a challenge. And as Mannahnin said earlier, Stelek actually won on 3rd tie breaker >250 VP but it was reported inaccurately at first. Dash will have to confirm that.

He went to Nova and played against some tough folks and came in third out of a field of 90 or so. How did you do?

Don't try to make him out to be a boogie man. He's just a guy. He put his money (for flights) where is mouth is and went. Took a bunch of balls considering the Stelliehate out there. I don't know that a lot of other ITGs would do the same.

+1

I don't even read his blog or follow him in any form or fashion, but to say he went 5-1 at this event and beat Dash as well, that's saying something for him, I'd say. And I love how everyone keeps saying "top tier codex" as if to say the codex makes the player. I guess it has nothing to do with the person behind the little figurines, eh? You just put your codex's rules down on the table and compare notes, then decides who wins? You can just as easily take a "top tier codex" and lose.

Ah, Tony is really, really good. His schedule was absurdly tough ...

Mafty's jetseer/mech eldar
2 x Loganwing w/ thunderwolves
2 x Razorwolves, including Stelek
Mark Ferek's BA

Mark himself went through
2 optimized mech-heavy marines
Dameon Green's multi-ticket-winning CSM
Danny Internet's Ard Boyz successful IG (Danny won Ren Man)
Justin Hilderbrandt's Orks - aka DashofPepper

So Tony beat all them, and the guy who beat all those ...

and would probably kick just about all yall's butts more often than not.

Taking a potshot at Stelek, whatever ... IDC. But taking a potshot at him by referring to it as a proof of weakness that he lost to a "16 y/o kid" is ignorant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for anyone who wants to see an absurd slugfest, look for the battle report Dash will invariably post regarding Mark Ferek vs. Him in the semi-finals.

I think there were 700 vp left on the table, total, and it was determined by a single dice at the end of Turn 7.

I agree; the whole "Codex tiers" blather really detracts from the role of the player in Warhammer 40k. Speaking of, it occurred to me that it could be the preponderance of Space Wolf armies at the tournament rather than any essential virtues of the army list itself that resulted in its disproportionate representative in the finalists.

I haven't seen a list of which armies were at the tournament, nor any analysis of their representation by %, but I'm very curious because it would be interesting to see if there were more or less Space Wolf armies than 3/4, and exactly how much.

I have no problems with a 16 y/o kid being good - his win is deserved.

I do hope that future Stelek is less of an ass to people who don't play what he says they have to, given that it's clear he's not as good as he wishes he was.

Nurglitch wrote:I agree; the whole "Codex tiers" blather really detracts from the role of the player in Warhammer 40k. Speaking of, it occurred to me that it could be the preponderance of Space Wolf armies at the tournament rather than any essential virtues of the army list itself that resulted in its disproportionate representative in the finalists.

I haven't seen a list of which armies were at the tournament, nor any analysis of their representation by %, but I'm very curious because it would be interesting to see if there were more or less Space Wolf armies than 3/4, and exactly how much.

Check the Nova Open thread. MvB just posted the #'s and I posted the %'s.

Thanks pretre!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

No, but I find it significant that:
1. ITG Stelek couldn't beat Dash's Orks with his uber Spaz Woofz, had to go to 4th tiebreaker to claim a marginal "win".
2. ITG Stelek couldn't beat a 16-yo kid

The batrep was very helpful. Based on this event, along with his game against Parker, it seems to me that Stelek isn't nearly as good of a player as he (and his fan club) thinks he is. He didn't win out, despite taking a top-tier Codex. I wonder what sort of excuses he'll be making...


Anyhow, major congratulations to Dash for taking Orks to what would otherwise be a dead draw against ITG Stelek fielding a WAAC list.

So you posted this thread so that way you could see if Stelek lived up to your unrealistic expectations? I'm not sure what the point is, you created an impossible scenario: either Stelek wins, and then it is because he is a WAAC douche, or he loses and he is not a good player. In this case ... he wins, but not by a big enough margin by your standard and therefore he is both a WAAC douche and not good at the game.

If you read the batrep, or anything about the game, or even Stelek's posts you'd see that both him and Dash were great sports and had a good time. Your grudge against Stelek shouldn't take away from that.

Furthermore, your logic in this post is rather ridiculous. Basically you just said:

No, but I find it significant that:

1. Stelek couldn't beat one of four players in round 6 (the top 4%)
2. Stelek couldn't beat the person who won the tournament

Again, I'm all for saying that Stelek's Ork arguments were clearly disproven, but to implicate that he is not a good player because his two losses came against two of the remaining four players on Sunday is a little obtuse.

Again, I'm all for saying that Stelek's Ork arguments were clearly disproven, but to implicate that he is not a good player because his two losses came against two of the remaining four players on Sunday is a little obtuse.

I agree with that point a little, though not is a drama inducing way.

Stelek proved that he is still a good player and can make the cut. Even he has admitted that he was simply outplayed by Tony, but in a tournament of 90 people, he still made it to the top tables. That is an accomplishment.

Dash and Stelek both proved they are good players this weekend, and Dash did it with a codex that supposedly "fails". He also had a very close game against Stelek. He proved that his codex is still competitive.

@Timmy: Stelek created the situation, not me. He's the one saying stuff like Orks suck and people suck, not me.

I'm just asking if he's as good as he says he is, and the reality says no, he isn't.