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malfred wrote:I sometimes wonder if WD has changed, or if it's the game and the hobbyists
who have changed.

I would like to say it is the gamers, however as I haven't bought a copy since March 2006, and that was the first one since about 1989, I find it hard to really tell how much the content has changed.

I mean I gave it up around 1990 because it had by then already become a catalogue for the latest 40K and WHFB releases, plus the occasional useful article such as upgrades for Space Hulk.

I know they had features like Chapter Approved during the 90s, which I missed out on. Even that sort of useful, bonus content seems to have been dropped by the early 00s. I don't think a lot has changed in the past five or six years.

It isn't aimed at veteran gamers, it's aimed at newcomers, so naturally as you get experience in wargaming you begin to find WD repetitive and unsatisfying.

Who constitutes the main part of the market for WD?
There may be a case for suggesting that it gets picked up by new hobbyists for a while, who then fall by the wayside and drop it.
Or if they continue the hobby, they no longer feel a need for the mag.

Either way it probably doesn't matter too much, as the contant stream of freshers take up the slack.

do what i did stop getting white dwarf and subscribe to war games illustrated . that mag is just crammed with wargaming goodness !

On the plus side, H.B.M.C. , I finally got the Corey Hart / Andy Chambers reference you made in your retro review!

For me having been away from the hobby for 7 or 8 years, until I started up again 12 months ago, White Dwarf while yes being an advertising platform for the newest products has been very useful to me helping me get familiar with what's new, what's changed, what's still the same, and what's coming up in the next few months. Essentially it helped ease me back into the hobby with out having to go into my local workshop and face the sales pitches for things I didn't want or need. 12months down the line I still read it every month and even have a subscription simply because it was cheaper then buying a copy in store each month when it stops being of any use to me I'll cancel my subscription simple as that.

I do miss the writing of some of the old white dwarf staff from years gone by but I don't feel the magazine as a whole is any worse then it was in the past the articles have changed the formats a little different but over all your getting the same information as you ever have. That said the one article I rarely read is standard bearer, I don't dislike Jervis in fact he's responsible for a lot of things I love about the hobby both GW and non GW but his articles always seam a bit boring if any thing and I have to agree with the comment earlier that this months just felt a little thrown together at the last minute for me a bit like he was really stretching for ideas about what to write.

Back in the good old day’s I used to hold onto my copies of White Dwarf until, the wife finally lost her cool with clutter in the study. At this point I cut out the articles I found interesting and file them away in a series of folders. The remainder was generally the cover and adverts, which was thrown out.

I still get the White Dwarf, god knows why, though now I don’t get every issue.
and I still hold on to them, but now when forced to reduced the clutter in the study I desperately scan through each issue looking for articles to keep, rarely finding anything worth holding onto. So now it one or two rare articles that are kept and the bulk of the mag goes straight into the bin.

I generally come away despondent with the whole mag, making the general comment that it just a load of rubbish, which considered my recycle bin is full of the said mag seems a justifiable comment.

Still I keep getting it in the hope that just maybe the good old days will return

I still buy it and yes, only the odd article here or there is any good.

I really miss the days when they did scratch built terrain articles. Anybody remember the ruined temple made out of plaster wedding cake pillars? Or the amazing inn with a courtyard and opening gates.

I also liked seeing articles about other people's armies as I found them more inspiring than the Eavy Metal painted standard which I will never be able to achieve.

I'll be buying november due to the DE painting stuff, but that's all.

Flashman wrote:I still buy it and yes, only the odd article here or there is any good.

I really miss the days when they did scratch built terrain articles. Anybody remember the ruined temple made out of plaster wedding cake pillars? Or the amazing inn with a courtyard and opening gates.

Maisontaal's Abbey? That arcticle was great, including the rules for a 3 armies battle too. Hmm... Bretonia vs Undead vs Skaven IIRC.

Erasoketa wrote:

Flashman wrote:I still buy it and yes, only the odd article here or there is any good.

I really miss the days when they did scratch built terrain articles. Anybody remember the ruined temple made out of plaster wedding cake pillars? Or the amazing inn with a courtyard and opening gates.

Maisontaal's Abbey? That arcticle was great, including the rules for a 3 armies battle too. Hmm... Bretonia vs Undead vs Skaven IIRC.

I remember that too and it was indeed excellent.

I don't like to complain. So it's a shame that I am. I'm pretty sure I'm like Harms66 in this. I used to get every issue and read it again and again until it looked like an old rag. That was when I used to play (roughly the lifespan of 3rd Ed and the beginning of 4th). Looking back, it was already going downhill by then, and probably contributed to me ditching the hobby.

When I got back into 40k last year I bought a white dwarf. As well as the rip-off price it was thinner than my old issues, the battle report seemed pretty farsicle, the whole thing seemed like a big advert (not a clever advert like it used to be, a big blatant advert), and apart from the odd article about a tornament or painting/modelling it was generally disappointing. I don't buy it much anymore (only if something I'm really into is released) since I can generally get most of the content from skim-reading it on the shelf in Smith's!

There was a battle report I enjoyed fairy recently however- I don't have the issue, but it was an IG vs orks kill-team style thingy that ended with a Stompa trashing the board.

And the old WD wasn't all good, either. Although Chapter Approved was generally an awesome read it did contribute towards convoluting 3rd Ed with unbalanced random updates, strange army lists and the like.

In danger of sounding like an old geezer... Paul Sawyer (Fat Bloke) and his White Scars, Adrian Wood and his orks, Nick Davis and his Imperial Guard, all the old lot... those were the days!

Pick up a copy of No Quarter and a copy of WD and compare. I would argue that the gamer has not changed.

WD its to expensive for its content, I also remember the old days were there was little to no information about the hobby and WD was usefull. Internet changed that.
I'm still the kind of guy that prefers to take a mag rather than a laptop to the toilet so I ask this... what Hobby orientated mag do you guys read and think that its worthy of its price tag?

Im curious about the PP mag does it have nice painting articles? I dearly miss like the bread on my table the deceased cry havok... some years later and I still have not found a substitute ( anyone has sugestions?)

I only buy white dwarf if there is something I want in it...like spearhead. And even then I'll wait untill its 2-3 months old and snag it off the discount shelf.

MattRendar wrote:do what i did stop getting white dwarf and subscribe to war games illustrated . that mag is just crammed with wargaming goodness !

QFT

Why cry when you can put that 10 bucks to good use on something worth it. Aside from the content on the GW site, you really don't need to waste the money on Pravda propaganda.

A better use for that money is to just light it on fire, then at least you can say you'd get a neat light show.

I've heard very good things about "Game Forces" magazine, I've only seen a few previews currently, but some of the modelling stuff is supposed to be absurdly good.

Well, I got around the problem of the magazine's overpricing by simply borrowing copies occasionally from a better-off friend. Yay for friends!

I've recently been going through all my old White Dwarfs and I can say the magazine has changed a hell of a lot in some aspects whilst the advertising etc...has remained pretty much the same.

The one thing that has changed a lot in WD (and other magazines in general - even Empire) is the amount of writing. You don't get enough writing anymore, which is why many liken it to a catalogue - which has certainly always been a part of it and you'd expect it to be. I only buy WD now if it has a decent painting article in it (which is pretty much every month - the ). The older WD's (170-300ish) had many rules contained within them and you don't see that anymore. I liked the older ones as they released things off key and included rules for them, with full background, sometimes even tactics, within the one article - of course the specialist games systems were more 'used' then so they had a great variety within them as well. I feel now WD has become very formulaic - you get the new release, design notes, painting article and battle report then maybe a few minor things for the systems where the main release isn't focused on - if any at all - and that's it.

It's a shame as I feel a lot of the 'free' spirit has been lost but that's just how it is

I assume only newbies buy the magazine because there's nothing in it for the long term hobbyist. It's just an advertising piece you are expected to pay for. And it is expensive even before you consider the number of pages devoted to advertising their own stuff. There are cheaper magazines out there full of modelling articles and reviews and readers models, and coverage of events etc.

What gets me is the way that the articles and gaming reports are just adverts for the latest army and game. And they then follow the article with a few actual adverts, so if they just did a game with Space Marines, there would be a few pages advertising the 40K game and those very Space Marines. The article itself was a thinly disguised advert, but they then follow it up with an actual advert, perhaps they think their readers just can't take a clue, or perhaps they just can't think of something to fill the pages with.

The only way I get to see miniatures other than those painted by the 'eavy metal team is online, WD doesn't even feature readers armies, or those done by staff any more. People used to use their own home painted armies for battle reports making it different each time, though the 'army of the month' was often studio painted. I flick through it now, and the "'eavy metal showcase' often uses the same photographs as the catalogue but magnified. How lazy, simply filling out a few pages and leaving a lot of white space.

It's desperately sad that a game as big as Warhammer with its huge following has so little real hobby support. WD used to be billed as a "gaming supplement", and it was. I don't want to be one of these people trying to boast how long they have been a gamer by declaring WD wasn't worth a damn after issue #100 but it really has lost all it's content, but the content was not bad at all for longer that some will claim, well into the #200s. You used to get army lists and rules in the magazine for new vehicles in 40K, you had scale plans to build your own vehicles; the first Baneblades were all made from plans issued in WD and plans were issued for several Ork vehicles and conversions for Space Marine vehicles. Whole army lists; the Squats list first appeared in WD, a list for Norse in fantasy. Even in later years they did this, the first Tomb Kings list was published for 5th ed fantasy around issue #230 and you'd get articles to support games like Gorkamorka for new gubbins and random events lists and the occasional new scenario. Mordenheim was first released in the pages of White Dwarf around this time too, issues #220-230 or thereabouts, at first some simple rules but then they added many more for equipment lists, scenarios, different warbands and there were articles on kitbashing your own gangs. Collected together the rules were almost as complete as something like Necromunda, and clearly they thought so to because Mordenhiem received a full commercial release. Space Hulk was supported with a health stream of rule for new weapons, new rules, new missions, new shapes of floor tiles which you could cut out or photocopy and use in your game, some essential new rules like weapons and the like appeared in the Deathwing/Genestealer expansions, but odder ones like using Traitor Terminators or standard beaky marines were only in White Dwarf. Thus they were supplemental to add extra spice, not essential.

It was a gaming supplement because you had to buy the magazine to get some of the more obscure rules, the latest releases for many games were issued through the magazine especially for things like Man o' War and others. I would stress that you didn't have to miss out though, they bundled these together to make things like the Chapter Approved and Best of White Dwarf books in later years that meant you could pick up the collected rules for things or whole army lists like Chaos Dwarves. Chaos Dwarves never had a true Army Book, they had a book that collected White Dwarf articles. I bet they couldn't even put together a book of supplemental rules today, it would just involve reprinting their battle reports and painting articles and padded out with adverts.

There were card pieces galore for at least a year or two, when Gorkamorka was released you got a huge watchtower to build, when new vehicles were released they gave you the Datafax in the magazine to add to the contents of your game. There was the Gorkamorka game around issue #230 which gave you a floorplan and tokens to play a game called "Brewhouse bash".

White Dwarf just reflects the way that the company all came under the control of suits looking to wring money out of it, the personal hobby elements are pushed aside for advertising the lowest common denominator content as far as gaming goes. They don't do anything any more that isn't seen as being immediately cost effective, and creating a 'gaming supplement' which fosters the hobby isn't part of their strategy. Maybe it's because they see their main customer base as being kids that have a short term interest that they have to fleece as quick as possible for maximum profit; they won't have the skill or patience to scratch build something so why encourage it? Just supply a few plastic buildings and fill that magazine space with adverts. They don't believe in investing in players to keep them long term because the money is all in the newcommers buying into it. Real gaming content, be it the painting of individual staff, the making of terrain, the develoment or rules and ideas to sell in a magazine is simply viewed as an inefficent way to fill the magazine. Magazine "quality" is quantified by what it looks like, being colourful and glossy and pushing the latest products.

I'll reiterate what others have already said. White Dwarf is nothing, and has never been anything, but a printed commercial for GW products that you have to pay for.

It's not a hobby magazine like Dragon Magazine used to be. Dragon used to have articles about multiple different gaming systems from multiple different game manufacturers back in the day. White Dwarf has never contained content for anything besides GW products.

While WD used to have more supplemental stuff (new rules, FAQs, scenarios, etc.) than it does now, it still served no other purpose than to encourage you to buy/play GW games.

By this point, some 20 years into the existence of WD, none of us should be surprised by this.

Oh, as to the quality of the Battle Reports, they never use "tournament quality" armies because they're more interested in the casual gamer than the tournament gamer. GW has made that painfully clear for more than a decade.

Saldiven wrote:White Dwarf has never contained content for anything besides GW products.

I think it did but you'll have to go a looong time back to find it.

I agree with the advertising. White Dwarf needs to settle down with it. Especially considering the magazine is one of the most expensive ive ever seen. When you think about it, it makes no sense. White dwarf is not a magazine that is easily accessible or commonly found in bookstores or news stands. When an individual picks up a copy of the mag, they typically know what they are looking at before they open the cover. Its not as if its a People or GQ mag where the average reader will find themselves browsing through it; no, this is a magazine with a certain specificity dedicated to a small group of readers who are aware of this game.

I used to buy the magazine good or bad articles, just to have it. Now because of the ads coupled with the 9$ shelf price, I carefully choose the issues I want

reds8n wrote: I've heard very good things about "Game Forces" magazine, I've only seen a few previews currently, but some of the modelling stuff is supposed to be absurdly good.

Will check into this, thanks for the tip.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I assume only newbies buy the magazine because there's nothing in it for the long term hobbyist. It's just an advertising piece you are expected to pay for. And it is expensive even before you consider the number of pages devoted to advertising their own stuff. There are cheaper magazines out there full of modelling articles and reviews and readers models, and coverage of events etc..

Names please or it didnt happen

White Dwarf............I still have the bestest of them all, the first time they had a Bat Rep about the Carnage scenario, the free-for-all with CSM, 2 Orks, and some other race.

That's the only one I've kept for so long...

Been out of the hobby for a while but WD now does not interest me. It seems the only outlet left for experimental rules is imperial armour. The 'Index Astartes' period of WD was the best time, pre 6th edition WHFB white dwarf was a bit rubbish IMHO. I think it generally went downhill after Fat bloke. I think the guy that ruined it was an Ex editior of 'SFX' IIRC. The mag seemed alot more 'disposable' after WD295-300. Agree with a previous poster about 'less writing' in mags in general. EDGE is the only Mag i am happy to pay for.

NAVARRO wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:I assume only newbies buy the magazine because there's nothing in it for the long term hobbyist. It's just an advertising piece you are expected to pay for. And it is expensive even before you consider the number of pages devoted to advertising their own stuff. There are cheaper magazines out there full of modelling articles and reviews and readers models, and coverage of events etc..

Names please or it didnt happen

Well for a start my dad gets Finescale Modeller each month. There's a couple of detailed builds each month, an article or so on a technique, simple or advanced like chrome finish or rust or something like masks and airbrushing, they review several kits (someone actually builds the kit and talks about it rather than looking in the box), they have a few pages where readers submit photos, some readers tips, a letters page, they cover the odd model show and it's just over £3.

Ed_Bodger wrote:I have only been playing guard for about six months but I have won three tournaments with them and have never lost a game
Thoughts?

I think you play mech guard. And I am not impressed it's a point click army where the only real thought process is target selection and how many flying trilas jets to place. I really don't like them at all.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Saldiven wrote:White Dwarf has never contained content for anything besides GW products.

I think it did but you'll have to go a looong time back to find it.

Yep. When it first came out, it had articles for all sorts of games(including D&D rules and campaigns and the like).

WD used to have D&D, Call of Cthulhu and other articles, scenarios and adverts in it. A long time ago, I admit (circa WD50). By WD80ish, it was purely GW.

Paradoxically it will be because there is no advertising in WD that will make the magazine more expensive on the shelf.
That and the fact that GW know there will be someone or their parents that will fork out the asking price.