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Very ugly, although with Khador that's not necessarily a bad thing. I do get the feeling that it's going to pull those horses down the hill that they are pulling it up.

On a slightly different tack, who left Privateer Press around six to nine months ago? This time last year every model that they released was solid gold, but there seems to have been a gradual decline in the quality of the sculpts and concepts since then.

Ugh...

So, am I the only one that sees the irony in a horse drawn tank in a steampowered world?

That looks like a deathmagnet. I would be pounding those horses to death, then walking in the long range firepower on turn 2.

Now that Tanks are the new tank, what are the other factions choices?

I would like to see what the Cryx pull out of thier hat.

This goes into my bucket of "ridiculous PP ideas that look stupid which I will do my best to ignore" with:
-Grim Angus having a blade on the stock of his gun. Like, at the point he would tuck it into himself to absorb recoil. A blade.
-Cannons in shields
-Cannons in axes
-Behemoth
-Stormclad
-Guy in heavy steam armour on giant armoured horse
etc

I like PP but god damn, some of their ideas are DUMB.

Eh, it's a fantasy world first and foremost, then a steampunk world.

I can deal with a lot of stuff so long as it looks infantry.

There are so many conceits tied to any game that if you let yourself get bogged down by them then you just won't enjoy anything. let alone warmachine.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Anyone who thinks that Mecha would make tanks obsolete obviously hasn't spent enough time on the internet...

Admittedly, the mecha in Warmachine aren't just mecha... They're magic mecha.

OoieGoie wrote:

ph34r wrote:A brick of metal pulled by two horses, also already covered in metal? Uhg.

I like the idea. The carriage on the back could use more Dakka!

Those are some strong ass horses. Maybe a couple more horses would look better.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Another gimmick from PP that I am not happy with. Seems like a new way to add further expense to the game. I would guess these will be must-have units or some such that will re-define the game and its formats, etc.

I suppose I shouldn't complain about a dynamic company, but sometimes I worry about the whole MtG eventuality my friends and I are waiting for. We may be wrong, but until we are proven so, we just stick to GW games.

Squats, the Lost and the Damned, Imperial Guard jetbikes, squig catapults, affordable resin titans from Armorcast. Shall I go on?

warpcrafter wrote:

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Another gimmick from PP that I am not happy with. Seems like a new way to add further expense to the game. I would guess these will be must-have units or some such that will re-define the game and its formats, etc.

I suppose I shouldn't complain about a dynamic company, but sometimes I worry about the whole MtG eventuality my friends and I are waiting for. We may be wrong, but until we are proven so, we just stick to GW games.

Squats, the Lost and the Damned, Imperial Guard jetbikes, squig catapults, affordable resin titans from Armorcast. Shall I go on?

Each of your examples are, in fact, the OPPOSITE of his point. His worry is PP making new MUST-HAVE whatsits, where not having them would result in your complete and utter devastation. Or inability to play at all.

Your examples are merely products that are no longer supported.

A GW example would be the 500 point Warhound titan that is legal in standard tournament play.

Your examples may be lamentable to some, but have no relevance to the conversation.

warpcrafter wrote:

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Another gimmick from PP that I am not happy with. Seems like a new way to add further expense to the game. I would guess these will be must-have units or some such that will re-define the game and its formats, etc.

I suppose I shouldn't complain about a dynamic company, but sometimes I worry about the whole MtG eventuality my friends and I are waiting for. We may be wrong, but until we are proven so, we just stick to GW games.

Squats, the Lost and the Damned, Imperial Guard jetbikes, squig catapults, affordable resin titans from Armorcast. Shall I go on?

All of those are still playable, just like a rotated Magic card. Also, the models can be used to Count-As plenty of things. The Titans are not a good example, though, because we still have Titans (just not affordable).

However, with Magic the rotation is set and often, forcing up prices and a secondary market, etc. This won't happen as much, with PP, because models costs are set, but it does give them a chance to do a frequent rotation. They can force players into buying new decks and new models every three to six months as they release expansions, etc. What I mean by this is an advancement in storyline forcing older models to find a niche in an equivalent "eternal" format, like Legacy and Vintage in Magic. People still play them, but its hardly the same thing as Standard play.

GW doesn't really "rotate" stuff. They do new books and models, but they rarely say "You can't use that!" The count-as concept further helps folks along, because if you are blessed enough to have Squats, you can just field them as IG. Is that perfect? No, but its not as extreme as Magic is, either. I expect PP to go somewhere between the two by progressing a storyline and introducing new models every month, etc. It may not happen, but its just a suspicion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks, Deathgod. You got what I was shooting for.

With PP, the over-the-top style of some of it doesn't do it for me, but certainly there are models I like (a lot). There's other things that just kind of make me cringe. This is one of them.

I know it's a fantasy/steam-punk/whatever world, but I have a hard time imagining those horses finding a way to drag that big ol' hunk of metal. The one on the right looks like it's staggering or waddling or something.

Some of you need to remember tho those wheels could have really really good bearings my van weighs 4 and a 1/2 tons I can push it with one hand. Those horses look to be large draft animals like Clydsdales
they can pull a train if hooked to it correctly.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:However, with Magic the rotation is set and often, forcing up prices and a secondary market, etc. This won't happen as much, with PP, because models costs are set, but it does give them a chance to do a frequent rotation. They can force players into buying new decks and new models every three to six months as they release expansions, etc. What I mean by this is an advancement in storyline forcing older models to find a niche in an equivalent "eternal" format, like Legacy and Vintage in Magic. People still play them, but its hardly the same thing as Standard play.

The thing is, Privateer has never done this. While an argument might be made that Mk. I leaned a bit towards new models [url] (see the character units and jacks), classic units and casters still got a lot of love. For instance, the Iron Fangs were rather evil in tournament play and often included in lists, and pVlad and pSorscha (also eVlad, who IMO still fits into PP's early rules philosophy) dominated competitive play. Even in Mk. 2, old units are still devastatingly competitive. For instance: Protectorate's Choir and Zealots are among their most common unit choices in faction, and a large percentage of new releases exist solely to make old units more attractive.

The only time new decks were really required were with the release of Mk. 2, due to a rather massive balance overhaul changing unit stats across the board. Faction decks were released at a couple points before this, but were mainly there to get errata onto cards to minimize confusion.

I expect PP to go somewhere between the two by progressing a storyline and introducing new models every month, etc. It may not happen, but its just a suspicion.

Not really a suspicion. They've been doing exactly that for the past six years.

It isn't that old stuff can't compete. I would argue that a Black Lotus is a damned good Magic card. Is it legal for Standard play right now? Nope. What happens when the next new expansion comes out and says all Prime versions of a character are now retired and a new version with some other names comes out to replace them? That is what I am getting at and as you said, they are between GW and WotC, which to me is not good for me as a gamer.

Again, they haven't done this yet, but I just anticipate it more on suspicions than any facts. I may be wholly wrong and I hope so, because I think a semi-collectible miniatures game that forces players to keep up with new stuff will be awful for my wallet, should I choose to play WM or Hordes in the near future.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:It isn't that old stuff can't compete. I would argue that a Black Lotus is a damned good Magic card. Is it legal for Standard play right now? Nope. What happens when the next new expansion comes out and says all Prime versions of a character are now retired and a new version with some other names comes out to replace them? That is what I am getting at and as you said, they are between GW and WotC, which to me is not good for me as a gamer.

IIRC, Matt Wilson has actually explicitly stated they never want to do this. I'll see if I can find the quote, but they haven't done so for closing on eight years now, and honestly expecting them to change their mind when their current business model works wonders is pretty much just baseless paranoia.

Yea, it is baseless paranoia. Pretty sure I made that clear.

Ah. Well. Carry on then.

Oh, and if you're interested, I have this adorable tinfoil fedora for sale...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

On a slightly different tack, who left Privateer Press around six to nine months ago? This time last year every model that they released was solid gold, but there seems to have been a gradual decline in the quality of the sculpts and concepts since then.

IIRC, Biggie left around then, but he was Help Desk and Press Gang rather than anything related to creative design...

Grot 6 wrote:I would like to see what the Cryx pull out of thier hat.

Giant machine wraith. Guess you missed the GenCon video.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:GW doesn't really "rotate" stuff. They do new books and models, but they rarely say "You can't use that!"

Certainly don't mean to start a pissing war, but I've got two armies that say otherwise (Lost and damned, Biel Tan army), and a Thousand Sons army that has had it's core rules changed in every incarnation of the Chaos Codex. Not to mention all the Chaos and Loyalist Chapter Armies that are no longer fieldable (and yes, there are special characters that proximate this for Loyalitst).

Regardless, I play Khador, and i think this "Gun on wheels" fits their feel and background perfectly. They breed some of the largest horses (Drakhuns mount), and have always had a very straight forward and practical mentality towards warcraft. A armored gun carriage, pulled by two of their largest armored horses carrying their biggest guns? That's Khador.

And to answer a "Why not a steam powered engine?", my theory is because that requires resources in coal that is better spent powering a warjack, which is also why it's not pulled by a warjack. This gives Khador a mobile gun platform, that's heavily armored, without requiring massive amounts of coal to transport it, nor needing a warjack or someone trained in warjack operations/repair to man it.

"Hey, you three Winterguard...get in that Wagon, go blow stuff up."


I look forward to seeing the rules and how PP represents them on the field.

Devilsquid wrote:

em_en_oh_pee wrote:GW doesn't really "rotate" stuff. They do new books and models, but they rarely say "You can't use that!"

Certainly don't mean to start a pissing war, but I've got two armies that say otherwise (Lost and damned, Biel Tan army), and a Thousand Sons army that has had it's core rules changed in every incarnation of the Chaos Codex. Not to mention all the Chaos and Loyalist Chapter Armies that are no longer fieldable (and yes, there are special characters that proximate this for Loyalitst).

Three words and two punctuation marks for ya: Squats, Genestealer Cultists. Bye cool armies. Bye forever.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Another gimmick from PP that I am not happy with. Seems like a new way to add further expense to the game. I would guess these will be must-have units or some such that will re-define the game and its formats, etc.

I suppose I shouldn't complain about a dynamic company, but sometimes I worry about the whole MtG eventuality my friends and I are waiting for. We may be wrong, but until we are proven so, we just stick to GW games.

Warmachine has been around for close to 8 years now. PP has introduced epic warcasters, cavalry and artilery in that time as new unit types that could have been considered to have redefined the game and its format. How many of those where " must-have units or some such" like you put it? None!

Meanwhille GW has pulled support out from one of its armies (nevermind units), at the rate of about 1 each edition...

Yes, you and your friends are dumb.

They did make some things in a limited play format.

For last year's leagues they had special units that current units
"counted as." The rules were never meant for tournament
play and once each league was over, those rules were retired.

Some day I hope to run a tourney using those rules as a one
off thing, but the rules were never presented as something
that would be legacied. If a rotating format were to be instated,
I like to think you'd have a heads up like they used for mk2.

PhantomViper wrote:Warmachine has been around for close to 8 years now. PP has introduced epic warcasters, cavalry and artilery in that time as new unit types that could have been considered to have redefined the game and its format. How many of those where " must-have units or some such" like you put it? None!

Meanwhille GW has pulled support out from one of its armies (nevermind units), at the rate of about 1 each edition...

The contents of MK 1 Legends might disagree with you there. Those were definitely "must have" units that got some severe rules changes less than a year later when MK II came out.

PhantomViper wrote:Yes, you and your friends are dumb.

Easy, Tex. No need to get rude.

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
The contents of MK 1 Legends might disagree with you there. Those were definitely "must have" units that got some severe rules changes less than a year later when MK II came out.

He isn't talking about specific units, he is talking about unit types, like cavalry, artilery and stuff like that.

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Easy, Tex. No need to get rude.

I'm not beeing rude, when someone states that he won't get into a game that exists for about 8 years because he is expecting the company that produces the game to pull a some sort of "bait and switch" whille at the same time stating that he will stick with a company that has practically adopted such tricks as its business model, then I'm sorry but that is one of the dumbest stuff I've ever heard.

Just as a type of disclaimer, I activelly play GW games, I also expect any type of army and / or unit that I play to stop beeing allowed any time that GW releases a new edition...

malfred wrote:They did make some things in a limited play format.

For last year's leagues they had special units that current units
"counted as." The rules were never meant for tournament
play and once each league was over, those rules were retired.

Some day I hope to run a tourney using those rules as a one
off thing, but the rules were never presented as something
that would be legacied. If a rotating format were to be instated,
I like to think you'd have a heads up like they used for mk2.

Yeah, there's a difference between the League Play cards (which are all free for download and meant to represent special units and individuals in the regions those events occurred in) and how GW handles old armies, or how WotC manages tournament rules. Those cards (or the alternate timeline ones they had at the press ganger invitational) were clearly marked as not being allowed outside of those story line events. There was no expectation or indication that those were to be used in Tournament play or were "legal" for anything outside of promotional or friendly play.

They were also free and used the same models that faction player would have already had.

Also... some of them are really neat!

PhantomViper wrote:

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
The contents of MK 1 Legends might disagree with you there. Those were definitely "must have" units that got some severe rules changes less than a year later when MK II came out.

He isn't talking about specific units, he is talking about unit types, like cavalry, artilery and stuff like that.

Fair enough, but I think Legends is a good example of PP conducting some "bait and switch" shenanigans. And, yeah, I know that MK II "changed everything" but still, if you bought something from MK I Legends and compared it to its final MK II counterpart you might feel a bit...underwhelmed.

PhantomViper wrote:I'm not beeing rude, when someone states that he won't get into a game that exists for about 8 years because he is expecting the company that produces the game to pull a some sort of "bait and switch" whille at the same time stating that he will stick with a company that has practically adopted such tricks as its business model, then I'm sorry but that is one of the dumbest stuff I've ever heard.

Just as a type of disclaimer, I activelly play GW games, I also expect any type of army and / or unit that I play to stop beeing allowed any time that GW releases a new edition...

I am not speaking for em_en_oh_pee, but as a former (avid) PP player who has since started up 40k I can understand where some of those reservations come from. Warmachine and Hordes is often compared to a collectible card game in terms of the combos that each of the units provides a player, so looking at the business model of existing CCGs it is easy to feel apprehensive about PP's growing list of options for their game. With each new release the list of units that need to be balanced against one another becomes more difficult to maintain (PP cried after Apotheosis when it came to balancing a book full of so many warcasters). Perhaps, and I am just supposing, but someone from em_en_oh_pee's perspective might be more content do deal with a known element (GW's shenanigans) versus an unknown element (PP's potential/previous shenanigans).

Either way, calling someone and their friends stupid for not playing a game you like for reasons that they find reasonable is, well, rude.

http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-1-03-2011

I actually like it much more now I've seen the actual model.

Same here - I think it looks great, and suitably over the top!

While that picture is very cool, did they need to use a trench board to show it off on? Talk about letting the enemy pick the battlefields

Yep, I will say that I quite disliked the art, much warmer to the actual model. Or picture of the model. Or whatever.

Dysartes wrote:While that picture is very cool, did they need to use a trench board to show it off on?

They wanted it to look big. Think about what they've done with perspective and elevation in that picture. Not subtle but clever.

Wonder if those horses can see well enough with all that armor on to tell there are stairs ahead?