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As its been pointed out, the fluff in the current codex has really ruined the "image" of the ultramarines..

In previous editions, the UMs have nearly been wiped out by a Tyranid hive fleet, and yet suddenly are back at full strength (almost as if they were never beaten down that small)

and yet, other First Founding chapters have been shoved into a dark shadowy corner where the light of day never shines (read, Iron Hands)

The biggest reason i chose not to paint UMs, even though blue is my favorite color, was mostly due to my not wanting to paint them "by the codex" I originally started with Raven Guard, which have now predominantly been replaced/repainted as Iron Snakes.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:and yet, other First Founding chapters have been shoved into a dark shadowy corner where the light of day never shines (read, Iron Hands)

To be honest, the only time the other First Founding Chapters (other than BA, DA and Wolves) ever got any chance to 'shine' was during the days when they were doing Index Astartes articles. All through 2nd Ed the various Codex Chapters out there were just as the Chaos Legions are now - a paint job, and that's it. The Iron Hands and others like them have never been front and centre and, if anything, are now more represented than they were during all of 3rd and 4th thanks to characters like Shrike, Lysander and even the White Scars guy.

The Iron Hands aren't, of course. They never seem to get any love, but that's nothing new, and certainly not because of the current Marine Codex.

-They are on every space marine box art, the main panel, which makes people feel "forced", which people hate.

-They get the most fluff and the most special characters, which leads to the general feeling of them being "Ultramarines are the best, all other chapters are inferior".

-During the Horus Heresy, while the other Legions were killing each other, fighting and nearly losing to protect the Emperor, what were the Ultras and Guilliman doing? Writing a book telling all the other marines what they're doing wrong, and how to divide themselves up once he took power shortly after the end of the split. So, he's that jerk who tells everyone what to do, after having done none of the work.

Ultras are fine, it's just that some people see them as unimaginative. Don't worry about it, my friend plays ultras and over the years he has made some pretty sweet conversions.

My marines are mostly navy blue, w/ white. I liked the Ultramarine colors, it's just that I wanted to have my own fluff and my own paint scheme, something that I could say "I made this". No book telling me "your chaplain must be in black", no, I just felt like doing my own thing. If the Blue & yellow catches your eye, that's great! Use it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:That much is true. I started Ultramarines because you and James (if you remember him) both started Blood Angels, and I prefer blue over red.

That's literally the reason I started with Ultramarines. Of course... we were what... 9 years old then?

Yeah that sounds about right. Maybe 10. It would have been sometime around '94. From memory there were also more than a few boxes that used BAs/DAs on the cover. And the existence of other Chapters was made much more apparent on those boxes compared to now. You just flipped it over and there were all these alternatives. Now you are lucky to see maybe 2 other non-Ultra Chapters in the minuscule pictures on the sides of the boxes.

Then again back in those days GW sold more than 3 games in store, and had actual content in WD, so diversity wasn't a foreign word to them. I still occasionally pick up one of those WDs from my closet and look it over.

Does anyone else find it somewhat ironic that the Imperium is dying due to stagnation, and that GW itself is also dying due to the stagnation of its product line? Life imitating art.

As "The Tau Player" in my game store I will say this much.

Let them talk. Let them call you gay, and make fun of them because they are the kings of the game.

I promise you you will feel much better when you respond to their insults with a humble "Yea, and you just lost to me and my blue marines."

I take any army I face seriously. I find it rather sad when people try to use this game to compete. It is a game and games are for fun.

I mean why else do we fork over mounds of money for a bunch of plastic?

poontangler wrote:I mean why else do we fork over mounds of money for a bunch of plastic?

To fight the evil of Communism. Capitalism ho!

Atma01 wrote:

poontangler wrote:I mean why else do we fork over mounds of money for a bunch of plastic?

To fight the evil of Communism. Capitalism ho!

...well said sir.

I don't like Space Marines, but I've always liked Ultramarines the best out of all the famous chapters. Their name is an absolute groaner and they're a little goody-two-shoes and their special characters are just as OTT as any other chapter's, but Ever since I started in 2nd Edition I liked them because they were the bog-standard space marine. No special units, no special rules, just the average Joes of the 9 ft tall genetically engineered super-soldier set. Back when Space Wolves could take Wolf Guard terminator units of infinite size with as many heavy weapons as they wanted, it almost seemed to me like players were handicapping themselves by playing Ultramarines. I don't remember if the UMs get some special rules now or not, but for me the reputation of being the army for the player who wants a fair fight has stuck.

Don't listen to the 4channers (nothing good has ever come from there). Don't listen to the other players in your store (if they don't pay for your minis, they don't get to tell you what to play.) Play the army you like.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Iron Hands aren't, of course. They never seem to get any love, but that's nothing new, and certainly not because of the current Marine Codex.

Ahem...

Flashman wrote:Ahem...

Double ahem:

"To be honest, the only time the other First Founding Chapters (other than BA, DA and Wolves) ever got any chance to 'shine' was during the days when they were doing Index Astartes articles." - Me, about three or four posts ago.


Lern 2 comprehension!!1

Yeah ok, but those babies are still around for the bargain price of £25.00

This White Dwarf article more than explains why people hate the Ultramarines, and you can blame Matt Ward for a lot of it. This is what happens when you let a Fanboi develop a codex, as opposed to someone who is merely enthusiastic about the army.

Was bored and going through one of my unsorted 4Chan folders waiting for stuff to finish downloading. Ah delicious relevance.

Vaktathi wrote:This White Dwarf article more than explains why people hate the Ultramarines, and you can blame Matt Ward for a lot of it. This is what happens when you let a Fanboi develop a codex, as opposed to someone who is merely enthusiastic about the army.

And that's the thing. The Codex itself doesn't crap on about "Spiritual Liege" and how "Everyone wants to be an Ultramarine!" (at least, it didn't when I read it - I may have missed the section) it's just Matt "C.S. Goto" Ward and his constant brainfarting that's caused the current crop of anti-Ultramarine Internet Hyperbole.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:This White Dwarf article more than explains why people hate the Ultramarines, and you can blame Matt Ward for a lot of it. This is what happens when you let a Fanboi develop a codex, as opposed to someone who is merely enthusiastic about the army.

And that's the thing. The Codex itself doesn't crap on about "Spiritual Liege" and how "Everyone wants to be an Ultramarine!" (at least, it didn't when I read it - I may have missed the section) it's just Matt "C.S. Goto" Ward and his constant brainfarting that's caused the current crop of anti-Ultramarine Internet Hyperbole.

Page 24 of C:SM does exactly that.

The Ultramarines had it a bit bad before the current book, for a variety of reasons, but it skyrocketed after GW allowed Matt Ward to write Codex: Space Marines for 5th edition.

Well it says 'distant' liege, and certainly nothing about them secretly (or opening) wanting to be Ultramarines. More aspiring to the history of their founding Legion.

It certainly would read to most people that the other chapters desire to be Ultramarines, especially with phrases like "They can never be Ultramarines". That pretty much reads only one way to most people, implying a desire to *be* Ultramarines.

It doesn't help of course that the author then explicitly states in WD that the Ultras are *of course* the best of the best and everyone wants to be them. In the codex it may not state it quite so bluntly or point blank, but it's not exactly super subtle either about it.

Vaktathi wrote:It certainly would read to most people that the other chapters desire to be Ultramarines, especially with phrases like "They can never be Ultramarines". That pretty much reads only one way to most people, implying a desire to *be* Ultramarines.

It doesn't help of course that the author then explicitly states in WD that the Ultras are *of course* the best of the best and everyone wants to be them. In the codex it may not state it quite so bluntly or point blank, but it's not exactly super subtle either about it.

i find it funny how there are statements like "They can never be Ultramarines" in a book that later says: "They are the undisputed masters of such tactics" of the Hawk Lords, or "The Raven Guard are the masters of the unseen war", or "White Scars are the masters of Reconnaissance and adherents...."

with the particular phrase "the masters" or "undisputed masters" they contradict their own statements, i mean if I am part of a chapter that is an undisputed master, why would i want to be something else??

I think it really is the matter of one amongst a group of equals suddenly claiming to be the best. That annoys people, even those people who are fine with being equal, and much more so those people who want to be best themselves.

In 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis there was a small textbox about each of the four main chapters - except for the ultramarines. There was nothing special about ultramarines back then, and they have not managed to give that chapter more character in those twenty years, at least not much. The romanesque style is a good start, but nowhere near strong enough - compare it to the depth to which the renaissance element of blood angels, the medieval monk element of dark angels, or the viking element of space wolves have been developed. The only thing the ultras have been given is "being the best". They have the best librarian, the best chaplain, the best tank commander, the best scout sergeant. That is just bland, and it breaks the suspension of disbelief in anyone older than 5. The ultramarines are the mary sue of 40k. They can do everything, have no flaws, are best and they have no actual characteristics. McNeill's Ventris is a perfect example of this. His supposed flaw is being less dogmatic than the average ultramarine and thereby being able to do more good. Oh, what a harsh flaw to deal with. The poor chap.

The Codex Imperialis textbox about the Space Wolves actually says "They are the first" - and since they are legion number six, that meant their ability. However, that bit of fluff could be read as some quote from a person in the 40k universe - which makes it a lot less offensive to players of other chapters or armies, because it allows for being read as an opinion, which makes it possible for others to have differing opinions - for example that their chapter is the best. This is what GW often do with armies and factions, to make them look cool without being definite about them being the best - being definite about that would disallow all other armies and factions to be cool. But the current SM codex text about ultras is doing exactly that: descriptive and factual, not allowing for other opinions, and therefore, offensive to anyone not playing ultramarines.

Imagine you want to play SMs, but do not like the blue colour scheme. You are automatically damned to play a chapter that is not as good. Me? I'm annoyed.



Now, all that being said, I actually like their colour scheme, and I really dig the whole roman flavour - I majored in roman history, and I would really, really like fielding a "roman legion" style SM army, especially since the whole HH fluff took quite some inspiration from that ancient culture. But it simply is not done far enough. For me, the Ultras could be cool if they could just be given more of that hint of character they have now, if they could be developed more in-depth. But this is not possible, because they could then not be the vanilla marines anymore.

Saying those things have been developed is being rather charitable. DAs are now just covered in feathers, SWs even MORE wolf pelts, BAs blood drops and wings everywhere, etc. But I see where you are coming from.

Vaktathi wrote:This White Dwarf article more than explains why people hate the Ultramarines, and you can blame Matt Ward for a lot of it. This is what happens when you let a Fanboi develop a codex, as opposed to someone who is merely enthusiastic about the army.

Wow, what a jerk.

Sure, not everything that has gone into strengthening those aspects will be liked by everyone - thunderwolves, for example, are just ridiculous in my eyes - and yeah, some of the symbols are overused, but I do mean the background, too. With space wolves that has always been strong, but the DA and BA backgrounds had only been hinted at in 2nd ed and have now been fully developed.

UM background was nonexistent in 2nd ed and nowadays there's a roman name here and a few lightning bolts and eagles there, and that's it. It remains bland, and that is sad, because it could be much more.

Oh and I just read that article for the first time. Wow indeed. "The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really!" Oh my gawd.

I disklike them because, like so many posters have already mentioned, GW has made them the face of the Space Marines. I feel their are other Chapters equal in nobility to the Ultramarines who deserve a share of the spotlight. I also dislike their fluff and their special characters (or lack of). Finally, I dislike that they basically police other Chapters with they guidelines.

But have you accepted Robute Guilliman as your spiritual liege yet Skylifter?

If you don't, Ultramarines will turn up at your door asking if you have heard the good news in their Codex Astartes book.

And then beat you with it until you do.

Tim the Biovore wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:This White Dwarf article more than explains why people hate the Ultramarines, and you can blame Matt Ward for a lot of it. This is what happens when you let a Fanboi develop a codex, as opposed to someone who is merely enthusiastic about the army.

Wow, what a jerk.

Wow, what an understatement.

Element206 wrote:I disklike them because, like so many posters have already mentioned, GW has made them the face of the Space Marines. I feel their are other Chapters equal in nobility to the Ultramarines who deserve a share of the spotlight.

Salamanders! If anything Salamanders are more noble than Ultramarines, according to the little background snippets I've read about them. They're not obvious glory hogs and actually seem to give a damn about the task they were charged with. In case anyone has any doubt.

I still wish Salamanders could get a bits/upgrade sprue like Dark Angels and Space Wolves. I'd probably start a new army if they did. I tried sculpting little details myself, but I'm clearly not cut out for it...some thunder hammers and meltas/flamers with the dragon motif (and shoulder pads obviously) would be greatly appreciated. At the moment all they have to offer are terminator pads...yay...

Nurglitch wrote:Isn't this a gaming discussion board? Where else can we worry about such trivialities? There's a time and a place, and Dakka Dakka is the place.

Reread my reply/post. The discussion was about game stores not this forum. You can discuss anything you want here. And as I stated: taking stock in what a bunch of geeks at a game store think about much of anything is indeed usually waste of time.

Bottom line inthis discussion: paint your models how you want and IF the crowd at said store is annoying/unfullfilling then I would search for a new place to play or start a private club.
Life is too short to purposely spend time with morons...

I have about 2 companies of them, but I can relate why people don't like them very much, of course I'm still waiting for the Soul Drinkers and the Blood Ravins to become bonifide chapters with some serious releases.

I really don't know why GW came up with the idea that generic Blue marines would be even taken seriously, much less that they give them so much with such little thought. I know it's just a color, but the way that GW itself portrays them really just turns the chapter into some sort of bad joke.

Examples include each and every new tank, troop type, or character and any other thing you can think of. Theres always shots and shots of Ultramarines clogging up GW's material that you would think that they are all that there are, and there are no other chapters.

And a caviot off of the fanboy codex, there really isn't any farther you need to go when the game pretty much devolves into the idea that generic space marines for the win are a good thing, nevermind that they didn't really take into account that the material already written pretty much cuts its own throat.

Some of the things seen would have you believe that the chapter wasn't even really the "Ultramarines." There is only so much someone can take in the first place when you pull some sort of superhero out of left field, but when you continue to do it, it just gets old, and really doesn't lend itself to endearment.
My example being-
They already had some great books out about the die hard fights that Ventris and Calgar had. Then for some odd reason, GW sees fit to pull the second companies captain and a bunch of newb characters that we are supposed to throw hard earned coin at, for the only reason of them being "ULTRA-ULTRAMARINES", even going as far as to throw up gold on thier 2nd company armor out of left field like we need yet another cool kid.

The material doesn't need reinvention each and every month, it just needs continuity.

Atma01 wrote:Yeah that sounds about right. Maybe 10. It would have been sometime around '94. From memory there were also more than a few boxes that used BAs/DAs on the cover. And the existence of other Chapters was made much more apparent on those boxes compared to now. You just flipped it over and there were all these alternatives. Now you are lucky to see maybe 2 other non-Ultra Chapters in the minuscule pictures on the sides of the boxes.

All GWs used to have a heap of introductory booklet things on the counter. They would describe basic painting and modelling and had a little bit of this and that and a couple of adverts (naturally). For some time the back page had a range of different space marine chapters represented by a painted miniature, must have been about 20-25 individual marines each painted differently and labelled accordingly. When you didn't have the internet that was one of the best places to see a load of marines actually painted in different chapter colours. My favourites for a long time were Mentor Legion.

Grot 6 wrote:I have about 2 companies of them, but I can relate why people don't like them very much, of course I'm still waiting for the Soul Drinkers and the Blood Ravins to become bonifide chapters with some serious releases.

I really don't know why GW came up with the idea that generic Blue marines would be even taken seriously, much less that they give them so much with such little thought. I know it's just a color, but the way that GW itself portrays them really just turns the chapter into some sort of bad joke.

Examples include each and every new tank, troop type, or character and any other thing you can think of. Theres always shots and shots of Ultramarines clogging up GW's material that you would think that they are all that there are, and there are no other chapters.

And a caviot off of the fanboy codex, there really isn't any farther you need to go when the game pretty much devolves into the idea that generic space marines for the win are a good thing, nevermind that they didn't really take into account that the material already written pretty much cuts its own throat.

Some of the things seen would have you believe that the chapter wasn't even really the "Ultramarines." There is only so much someone can take in the first place when you pull some sort of superhero out of left field, but when you continue to do it, it just gets old, and really doesn't lend itself to endearment.
My example being-
They already had some great books out about the die hard fights that Ventris and Calgar had. Then for some odd reason, GW sees fit to pull the second companies captain and a bunch of newb characters that we are supposed to throw hard earned coin at, for the only reason of them being "ULTRA-ULTRAMARINES", even going as far as to throw up gold on thier 2nd company armor out of left field like we need yet another cool kid.

The material doesn't need reinvention each and every month, it just needs continuity.

While you may or may not be right in your asessment it is all irrelevant. Even if you are 100% right it doesn't give anyone the right to be a TFG assclown, which is what this thread is about.

IF you (in the generic sense) don't like Ultramarines then don't buy/play/paint them.

But to carry on about them as if it makes any actual difference in your life is moronic. It is a game of toy soldiers.

Running around a game store declaring things "gay" to prove your nerd-superiority?!? Really? Get a f*ucking life...

As people have said it's because the Ultramarines are crammed down our throat and quite frankly alot people get fed up seeing/hearing "Ultramarines this...Ultramarines that..."

A good example of how over used they are IMO is in the new Ultramarines film and the up and coming game Space Marine, I was not the least bit shocked Ultramarines where chosen. In the Ultramarines film they made the the Imperial Fists look crap. I don't want to go into it too much in case it spoils it for people who have not yet seen it.

I think it would be nice and fair if GW chose a chapter each year and released some stuff for it. I wouldn't collect Ultramarines because I would feel like a sheep following the heard (same with the BA's at the moment). However I wouldn't condone anyone for collecting them, my friend collects Ultramarinesm and always has. I always gently rib him about it, but he ribs me about my army. A bit of friendly banter is healthy