why ultramarines are hated

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**Skylifter**

CT GAMER wrote:
Grot 6 wrote:I have about 2 companies of them, but I can relate why people don't like them very much, of course I'm still waiting for the Soul Drinkers and the Blood Ravins to become bonifide chapters with some serious releases.

I really don't know why GW came up with the idea that generic Blue marines would be even taken seriously, much less that they give them so much with such little thought. I know it's just a color, but the way that GW itself portrays them really just turns the chapter into some sort of bad joke.

Examples include each and every new tank, troop type, or character and any other thing you can think of. Theres always shots and shots of Ultramarines clogging up GW's material that you would think that they are all that there are, and there are no other chapters.

And a caviot off of the fanboy codex, there really isn't any farther you need to go when the game pretty much devolves into the idea that generic space marines for the win are a good thing, nevermind that they didn't really take into account that the material already written pretty much cuts its own throat.

Some of the things seen would have you believe that the chapter wasn't even really the "Ultramarines." There is only so much someone can take in the first place when you pull some sort of superhero out of left field, but when you continue to do it, it just gets old, and really doesn't lend itself to endearment.
My example being-
They already had some great books out about the die hard fights that Ventris and Calgar had. Then for some odd reason, GW sees fit to pull the second companies captain and a bunch of newb characters that we are supposed to throw hard earned coin at, for the only reason of them being "ULTRA-ULTRAMARINES", even going as far as to throw up gold on thier 2nd company armor out of left field like we need yet another cool kid.

The material doesn't need reinvention each and every month, it just needs continuity.

While you may or may not be right in your asessment it is all irrelevant. Even if you are 100% right it doesn't give anyone the right to be a TFG assclown, which is what this thread is about.

IF you (in the generic sense) don't like Ultramarines then don't buy/play/paint them.

But to carry on about them as if it makes any actual difference in your life is moronic. It is a game of toy soldiers.

Running around a game store declaring things "gay" to prove your nerd-superiority?!? Really? Get a f*ucking life...

As you can see here:

theamericanos wrote:No further explination just that they suck. And everybody was agreeing, even the freakin tau player, which says alot. Why are they hated

..the OP asked why they were hated. People answered that. I myself described at length what I dislike about them. And the reason I find this question interesting is that I wish there were less things I dislike about them, and more I like, because at the core, I do like them a lot, and would love for them to be portrayed in a more interesting way in the codex.

I do agree that simply saying "they suck" is moronic. However, discussing what, in our opinions, is wrong with them is not.

**Stormrider**

Overexposure is a pretty bad problem, but if someone tells you what to run, ignore them.

I enjoy the background of the Ultramarines because Ultramar is what the Imperium could be. Most of it still hasn't recovered from the Horus Heresy and the chapters involved in the defense of Terra were battered pretty badly. I would love to see more little codexes (like the old Catachan codex) for some of the first founding chapters like the Salamanders or White Scars.

**shingouki**

never really got the whole gotta hate the smurfs thing.I like space marines ultramarines were the first thing that really caught my eye when i first visited a gw store.I can see that they are over exposed somewhat ie pretty much on every box but ive never really had a problem changing marking etc.

**H.B.M.C.**

Skylifter wrote:UM background was nonexistent in 2nd ed...

There was a "Codex: Ultramarines" in 2nd Ed. So no it wasn't.

You have to remember that a lot changed between 1st and 2nd Ed. There was quite a bit of Ultramarines fluff in 1st Ed, but it was contradictory for the more solidified storyline that 40K received once they moved to 2nd Ed. To start with the Ultra-Marines (as they were called) were not a 1st Founding Legion, and they had weird things like a half-Human/half-Eldar Librarian. When the transition was made there was little Ultramarine fluff because it needed to be rewritten from the ground up into something that fit with the more logical background they were going for with 2nd Ed. That's why there isn't anything in Codex Imperialis about them and we only get a few pictures of them in various areas.

Skylifter wrote:...nowadays there's a roman name here and a few lightning bolts and eagles there, and that's it.

Except that's not it. There are now reams and reams of background material, and it's a hell of a lot more than a few names and symbols. And that's aside from getting an entire Ultramarines Codex as the... fourth (I think... Wolves, Eldar, Orks then Ultras I believe) Codex release in 2nd Ed.

Mighty Simo wrote:A good example of how over used they are IMO is in the new Ultramarines film and the up and coming game Space Marine, I was not the least bit shocked Ultramarines where chosen.

Do you people not get it yet?

GW is presenting a consistent brand image for 40k. It is far easier to unify a range of products when you tie them to a single type of image. If each box of Marines had a different Chapter on it, new players would be confused. The fact that their first commercially released feature length (almost!) movie ties into this brand image is hardly surprising.

**Almarine**

Ultramarines are awesome OP, play them.

Exhibit A: Chaos Gate computer game

**Skylifter**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Skylifter wrote:UM background was nonexistent in 2nd ed...

There was a "Codex: Ultramarines" in 2nd Ed. So no it wasn't.

You have to remember that a lot changed between 1st and 2nd Ed. There was quite a bit of Ultramarines fluff in 1st Ed, but it was contradictory for the more solidified storyline that 40K received once they moved to 2nd Ed. To start with the Ultra-Marines (as they were called) were not a 1st Founding Legion, and they had weird things like a half-Human/half-Eldar Librarian. When the transition was made there was little Ultramarine fluff because it needed to be rewritten from the ground up into something that fit with the more logical background they were going for with 2nd Ed. That's why there isn't anything in Codex Imperialis about them and we only get a few pictures of them in various areas.

Skylifter wrote:...nowadays there's a roman name here and a few lightning bolts and eagles there, and that's it.

Except that's not it. There are now reams and reams of background material, and it's a hell of a lot more than a few names and symbols. And that's aside from getting an entire Ultramarines Codex as the... fourth (I think... Wolves, Eldar, Orks then Ultras I believe) Codex release in 2nd Ed.

Right, I was referring to the first year, in which there was no UM fluff yet. But yes, they do now have lots of material, but not in their codex. SW, DA, BA - their special flavour is immediately apparent from their codices. The UM flavour the SM codex leaves in my mouth is "roman-based mary sue". No more, no less. And that is what I dislike.

I understand why GW are doing that, and I would do exactly the same in their position, but I nonetheless find that sad, because UMs could be so much cooler if they were less bland and less best, but more 'themselves', so to speak.

And please don't misunderstand me: I don't think UMs a boring, lame or whatever people said to the OP. I think they are great, only one would have to do more work oneself to bring out what's great in them as compared to other chapters, for which all that has already been done by GW.

**oni**

In a nutshell its nerd-rage gone wild. Buy the movie! See sexy Astartes reveal it all. Only $39.98! Call now and get the limited edition graphic novel packed with untainted, virgin combat brothers... Operators are standing by!

**Nurglitch**

oni wrote:In a nutshell its nerd-rage gone wild. Buy the movie! See sexy Astartes reveal it all. Only $39.98! Call now and get the limited edition graphic novel packed with untainted, virgin combat brothers... Operators are standing by!

Go on...

**poontangler**

I find the Space Marines in general get hyped up into something they are not. In the fluff they are painted as almost god like. A single marine able to face down entire squads of lesser warriors. When on the table top this is not the case.

**theamericanos**

poontangler wrote:I find the Space Marines in general get hyped up into something they are not. In the fluff they are painted as almost god like. A single marine able to face down entire squads of lesser warriors. When on the table top this is not the case.

the only reason i have such a hate for tau is that my army is a dark eldar army consisting of a huge core of wyches mounted on raiders with a few talos to absorb incoming fire. The tau player on the other hand has a manta which is created by forge world and has the following weapon system. 16 long barreled burst cannons, 6 long barreled ion cannons, two heavy rail guns, missle pods with many seeker missles, including a networked markerlight turret. I think its safe to say that my army is pretty much useless

**Sidstyler**

We know what the manta is.

And that's easy to deal with: just say no. You don't have to fight against a manta if you don't want to. Hell, I'm not sure how you could in anything other than Apocalypse, the thing costs at least 3000 points by itself.

In any case I think it goes without saying that it's wrong to damn an entire army because of one expensive, optional model that most people buy just for show anyway, as actually using it in games is too impractical and pointless.

**poontangler**

Lol, Yea you don't have to fight the Manta. I think the Dark Eldar can murder anything in front of them.

**Dysartes**

poontangler wrote:I find the Space Marines in general get hyped up into something they are not. In the fluff they are painted as almost god like. A single marine able to face down entire squads of lesser warriors. When on the table top this is not the case.

As has been stated in a number of sources, if Space Marines worked in game as they are meant to in the background, the game would be biased even more in their favour than it is now.

The "Movie Marines" article was a good example of this. The comparative statistic difference between a human and a Space Marine in Inquisitor was an even better example.

I've heard that the same is the case in the Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch trilogy of games, but I've not played them enough to be sure.

**Howard A Treesong**

I've never seen a Manta fielded, even in pictures online. There can't be that many of this near enough £1000 model around.

**poontangler**

Honestly I have no hate for the Space Marines. Some of the writings around them are annoying. I find they have a lot of bombastic phrases used to further hype them up. I also find that the new players who pick them up often reflect this(not everybody is the same)

Personally I love fighting them. The victory is that much sweeter, especially when your opponent is baffled about why he just lost. I mean he did field the space marines after all.

**Kid_Kyoto**

littleboyblues wrote:Ultramarines aren't 'gay'.

I have to disagree, I think with their Greco-Roman fluff, bonds of brotherhood, and life without women it has always been heavily implied that the Ultras (and marines in general) practice homosexuality. I mean really 'ejaculating bolters' boarding torpedos shot up Tyranid spinchers, it's there if you look.

**poontangler**

Aren't Space Marines eunuchs?

**Kid_Kyoto**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
There was a "Codex: Ultramarines" in 2nd Ed. So no it wasn't.

You have to remember that a lot changed between 1st and 2nd Ed. There was quite a bit of Ultramarines fluff in 1st Ed, but it was contradictory for the more solidified storyline that 40K received once they moved to 2nd Ed. To start with the Ultra-Marines (as they were called) were not a 1st Founding Legion, and they had weird things like a half-Human/half-Eldar Librarian. When the transition was made there was little Ultramarine fluff because it needed to be rewritten from the ground up into something that fit with the more logical background they were going for with 2nd Ed. That's why there isn't anything in Codex Imperialis about them and we only get a few pictures of them in various areas.

Far be it for me to correct the Half Brother of Marneus Calgar but that's not quite right.

In Rogue Trader days the UMs were a 3rd Founding legion yes, but they replaced the original UMs who turned to chaos.

They also lived on a Dune-like desert world complete with sand worms. I like to think the current fluff is all propeganda made up to hide their shameful origins, their crippled Chapter Master and Tigurius' half-breed origins.

Would you like to know more?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207705.page

Automatically Appended Next Post:

poontangler wrote:Aren't Space Marines eunuchs?

Not confirmed in any fluff I've seen, I think it's an example of fan-denial.

**sub-zero**

I am obviously an Ultramarine player, but I haven't always been one. See I used to play orks and after getting my butt handed to me quite a few times by power armored baddasses, I decided to find out what the fuss was all about. I got a SM codex, read a few black library novels, and started an army. Needless to say, after about 1500 pts. of blue and gold goodness later, my orks haven't seen the light of day in about a year. I could go on and on why the boys in blue are #1, but I think I'll let my sig answer that one for me.

**theamericanos**

cool

**akira5665**

Like that Sig

**micahaphone**

Wouldn't Space Marines doing anything with what they have down their be falling to Slaanesh?

And seriously, we (the internets) just use the Ultras as a scape goat of most things that people find annoying with GW. I'd gladly play you, Tigerius is my favorite special HQ, even though he's overpriced/too squishy.

**ph34r**

Ultramarines fluff is just stupid ridiculous in comparison to other chapters.
My favorite example is how ultramarine honor guards supposedly have more kills/commendations than companies of other chapters.
Another good one is Macragge. It's a good story, 1 company of UM plus some PDF fight off a crap ton of tyranids. However, then you compare this against fluff that the other chapters get, such as 1000 Iron Warriors and 500 defilers defending their planet made entirely of fortresses being defeated by a foe much like that which 100 ultramarines took down. It's just uhg.

**Skylifter**

sub-zero wrote:
Ultramarines are actually pretty awesome. Other chapters have goofy tactics, or grimdork curses or whatever to win them the battle, all the Ultras have is iron will and rock hard soldiery. They have no Death Company, or Terminator Wing, just suits of ceramite and hearts of steel. When the Imperium needs someone to count on, when they have to know that their super-soldiers that all those resources and time go in to making will actually show up, who do they call? The Ultramarines. When they need someone to kick down doors and gun down a small army with a dozen men and a tank, who do they yell for? Ultramarines. When you look at an Imperium riven with strife and internal conflict, where do you find peace, prosperity, and martial strength, even among the un-augmented? Ultramar.

So you might not like the boys in blue, but that's okay, because they're going to hold the line anyway. They're Ultramarines, Sons of Guilliman, that's what they do. brother chaplain darius

The only "other chapters" who have any extras are Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars and Dark Angels. And the latter two also have actual (ruleswise) drawbacks for their advantages. All other "other chapters" have exactly the same choices as Ultramarines. So why again are Ultramarines better than, for example, Raptors? Or Imperial Fists? Or Fire Angels? Or [insert any chapter using C:SM]?

ph34r wrote:Ultramarines fluff is just stupid ridiculous in comparison to other chapters.
My favorite example is how ultramarine honor guards supposedly have more kills/commendations than companies of other chapters.
Another good one is Macragge. It's a good story, 1 company of UM plus some PDF fight off a crap ton of tyranids. However, then you compare this against fluff that the other chapters get, such as 1000 Iron Warriors and 500 defilers defending their planet made entirely of fortresses being defeated by a foe much like that which 100 ultramarines took down. It's just uhg.

I agree. It does not make sense. The bit where Telion is sent to other chapters to teach their scouts is what I always felt was the most stupid one.

But the thing that makes all of this so annoying is that no reason is given. It is like a kid stating "mine is bestest!!!111eleven11!" and then nothing. If they came up with some believable reasoning why ultramarines are supposedly best at everything, then it might just be less annoying, or even enjoyable, and I'd start playing UMs. Yay! I doubt there can be a believable reason, though.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Skylifter wrote:
But the thing that makes all of this so annoying is that no reason is given. It is like a kid stating "mine is bestest!!!111eleven11!" and then nothing. If they came up with some believable reasoning why ultramarines are supposedly best at everything, then it might just be less annoying, or even enjoyable, and I'd start playing UMs. Yay! I doubt there can be a believable reason, though.

the "real" problem stems, imo, from written fluff that basically says that the UMs wrote the Codex taking the best of all tactics used my all Legions, compiled them into one "textbook" to serve as a shining example to all military organizations throughout the imperium. what its turned in to though, is a "We wrote this, we are telling you that we're the best, and this book proves it, now READ IT!!!! and follow whatever it tells you to" sort of situation.

One thing i would probably be OK with gw doing in a future codex, is saying that the UMs are the "best" all-round marine army, thereby leaving room for the other chapters to be "Absolute Masters" of various forms and tactics of war. As it stands right now, the current codex is abit daft in its portrayal of other chapters compared with UMs.

**purplefood**

I don't mind them. In fact i quite like their colour scheme. What(Who) i don't like is Cato Sicarius. I think he's a massive tool.

**Grot 6**

CT GAMER wrote:
Grot 6 wrote:I have about 2 companies of them, but I can relate why people don't like them very much, of course I'm still waiting for the Soul Drinkers and the Blood Ravins to become bonifide chapters with some serious releases.

I really don't know why GW came up with the idea that generic Blue marines would be even taken seriously, much less that they give them so much with such little thought. I know it's just a color, but the way that GW itself portrays them really just turns the chapter into some sort of bad joke.

Examples include each and every new tank, troop type, or character and any other thing you can think of. Theres always shots and shots of Ultramarines clogging up GW's material that you would think that they are all that there are, and there are no other chapters.

And a caviot off of the fanboy codex, there really isn't any farther you need to go when the game pretty much devolves into the idea that generic space marines for the win are a good thing, nevermind that they didn't really take into account that the material already written pretty much cuts its own throat.

Some of the things seen would have you believe that the chapter wasn't even really the "Ultramarines." There is only so much someone can take in the first place when you pull some sort of superhero out of left field, but when you continue to do it, it just gets old, and really doesn't lend itself to endearment.
My example being-
They already had some great books out about the die hard fights that Ventris and Calgar had. Then for some odd reason, GW sees fit to pull the second companies captain and a bunch of newb characters that we are supposed to throw hard earned coin at, for the only reason of them being "ULTRA-ULTRAMARINES", even going as far as to throw up gold on thier 2nd company armor out of left field like we need yet another cool kid.

The material doesn't need reinvention each and every month, it just needs continuity.

While you may or may not be right in your asessment it is all irrelevant. Even if you are 100% right it doesn't give anyone the right to be a TFG assclown, which is what this thread is about.

IF you (in the generic sense) don't like Ultramarines then don't buy/play/paint them.

But to carry on about them as if it makes any actual difference in your life is moronic. It is a game of toy soldiers.

Running around a game store declaring things "gay" to prove your nerd-superiority?!? Really? Get a f*ucking life...

Irrelevent? What are you talking about here?

The point about the Ultramarines being ... not liked very well... is the point of the thread. If people want to be assclowns, thats on them, Me? I think you might have missed the first sentence where I just said that I had two companies of them.

My assessment is on the money, and pretty much the majority of the opinion of most here. That Ultramarines are over exposed and that GW pushes them harder and uses them as the posterboy army for 40K...

Are you so PC that you don't bust balls in your local game store, and have all of the insider laughs at some or the other armies expense? Heck, EVERYONE who plays has a good gib ever now and then and has TFG moments, thats some of whats fun about gaming. I don't have a personal issue with them, I just think the same thing that I already, and pretty much everyone else is saying. I think they are a good baseline army that someone just out of the starting gate can pick up and play a scratch game without sitting on the fence and watching everyone else play, but as a whole though, Ultramarines are over hyped, overly lauded, and needlessly pitched to newb players, ( Newb as in New walking right into a store and saying something like "Hey whats this stuff about...")

**DA's Forever**

Nurglitch wrote:
oni wrote:In a nutshell its nerd-rage gone wild. Buy the movie! See sexy Astartes reveal it all. Only $39.98! Call now and get the limited edition graphic novel packed with untainted, virgin combat brothers... Operators are standing by!

Go on...

Made my day

**CT GAMER**

Mighty Simo wrote:As people have said it's because the Ultramarines are crammed down our throat and quite frankly alot people get fed up seeing/hearing "Ultramarines this...Ultramarines that..."

Maybe take a break from the game if toy soldiers get you this worked up?

Go outside, get some exercise? Deep breathing also helps...

**SumYungGui**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
littleboyblues wrote:Ultramarines aren't 'gay'.

I have to disagree, I think with their Greco-Roman fluff, bonds of brotherhood, and life without women it has always been heavily implied that the Ultras (and marines in general) practice homosexuality. I mean really 'ejaculating bolters' boarding torpedos shot up Tyranid spinchers, it's there if you look.

Will you accept the hot, hot geneseed?