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Kanluwen wrote:Summer campaigns were scrapped because people would manipulate the mechanics for their self-reporting system.

I very much doubt that the outcome and/or how it was achieved played any part at all in the decision to stop doing them.

Just like any other event that GW (or pretty much any other company, for that matter) sets up, the 'summer' campaigns were first and foremost sales tools. I would suspect (and have heard rumours to the effect from various people over the years) that the sales boost returned from running these events simply wasnt sufficient to justify the expense and effort involved in setting them up and running them.

Kanluwen wrote:

FITZZ wrote:
The summer spent playing the "13th Black Crusade" campaign was one of the best for me,I was part of the Orks " Green Kroozade" and I swear my friends and I played more games and had more fun than I've had in some time..it would be nice if GW did something along those lines again.

This is a stance that has always bothered me.

Why does GW need to organize it? I mean, with a few days worth of effort--you and your friends could easily organize it yourselves.

And a few months worth of effort to fight the legal challenges by GW for your use of their IP?

If any campaign was going to be large enough to be fun (like the 13th Black Crusade, or the 3rd War for Armageddon were. They were literally world-wide, it was nice to be part of something larger than you and your friends and your store!), it would be large enough for GW's legal attack dogs to savage.

Plus, last last 7 years haven't been kind to non-GW LGSes, friendly and otherwise.

If GW were to have a campaign like that again, it'd give me a reason to actually visit their stores.

Otherwise, I'll stick with the FLGS. Much nicer.

Fafnir wrote:If GW were to have a campaign like that again, it'd give me a reason to actually visit their stores.

Otherwise, I'll stick with the FLGS. Much nicer.

Well,the nice thing about the campaign I was a part of was that even if you weren't close to a GW store,you could still participate.
So long as you and your opponent were both registered on the GW site,you could fight you battles anywhere,GW,FLGS or even at home.
After the game,you and your opponent simply went online,entered the results of your battle and what sector/planet they were fought on and GW tallied them up.

I'd prefer a more organized system, and from a marketing perspective, it would do GW good to do it in such a way too. I've only been in the wargaming hobby for 3 years, so I can't say anything from actual experience.

By having the games take place in store, you could organize bigger games and have more control over the legitimacy of your results.

And for GW, people would have another reason to actually go to their stores (in all honesty, for all the reasons that I can find to not go to their stores, I can't think of a single reason to actually go to them), meaning people would be in their stores, playing plenty of games, and be much more likely to actually buy something rather than just relying on people to buy things based on a temporary codex.

The armies presented in storm of chaos were described in the book as official. It was a low blow by GW to reverse that.

Doctor Optimal wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

FITZZ wrote:
The summer spent playing the "13th Black Crusade" campaign was one of the best for me,I was part of the Orks " Green Kroozade" and I swear my friends and I played more games and had more fun than I've had in some time..it would be nice if GW did something along those lines again.

This is a stance that has always bothered me.

Why does GW need to organize it? I mean, with a few days worth of effort--you and your friends could easily organize it yourselves.

And a few months worth of effort to fight the legal challenges by GW for your use of their IP?

What the hell are you talking about?

The only way GW would be setting up "legal challenges" is if you're trying to sell your campaign setup.
Which is, in any case, is a jerk move.

If any campaign was going to be large enough to be fun (like the 13th Black Crusade, or the 3rd War for Armageddon were. They were literally world-wide, it was nice to be part of something larger than you and your friends and your store!), it would be large enough for GW's legal attack dogs to savage.

Again: what the hell are you talking about with the legalities?
Why do you need a campaign to be "larger than you and your friends and your store!"?
The world-wide campaigns were nice and all, but there's nothing at all stopping you and your friends and your stores actually running your own narrative campaigns.
Bigger, in this case, does not mean fun.

Plus, last last 7 years haven't been kind to non-GW LGSes, friendly and otherwise.

Not sure what this has to do with you and your gaming group/LGS organizing your own campaigns.

snurl wrote:The armies presented in storm of chaos were described in the book as official. It was a low blow by GW to reverse that.

If you expected the armies in a campaign book to be valid years past the ending of that campaign...
I don't know what to tell you other than .

Fafnir wrote:If GW were to have a campaign like that again, it'd give me a reason to actually visit their stores.

Otherwise, I'll stick with the FLGS. Much nicer.

As Fitzz mentioned: you didn't have to go to a FLGS or a GW shop to report wins/losses, both 'players' just had to be registered(there were reports early on of one guy making hundreds of false reports). That's part of the problem with the setup that GW used for their campaigns. The other part definitely was people cracking the mechanics and exploiting the hell out of them.

Fafnir wrote:I'd prefer a more organized system, and from a marketing perspective, it would do GW good to do it in such a way too. I've only been in the wargaming hobby for 3 years, so I can't say anything from actual experience.

All the organization in the world doesn't mean jack if people don't show up. Having been the guy running the Lustria campaign for my old FLGS--I can tell you that campaign was a bomb. Even with prize support from GW and knowing that people had Warhammer Fantasy armies to work from, people couldn't be arsed to show up.

I know it wasn't my management of the campaign, because when I did it for Medusa V---they couldn't get enough of it.

By having the games take place in store, you could organize bigger games and have more control over the legitimacy of your results.

Organizing bigger games assumes that the store has the room for the bigger games. That's a fallacy. I know, I know. It could easily work better that way--but it relies upon actually knowing how many people will show up.

With the "bigger" games, you inevitably have stragglers coming out of the woodwork and you get instances where your carefully crafted background for the campaign gets shot to pieces because someone who had never shown up for the rest of the campaign.

It's a minor thing, but it's irksome when you've spent months organizing up your campaign and then actually playing through it.

And for GW, people would have another reason to actually go to their stores (in all honesty, for all the reasons that I can find to not go to their stores, I can't think of a single reason to actually go to them), meaning people would be in their stores, playing plenty of games, and be much more likely to actually buy something rather than just relying on people to buy things based on a temporary codex.

I don't think this would happen, frankly.

But hey. It might.

Armageddon 3 was a great one, with results that are now well known background story. Other campaigns, nope.

I wonder who had the bright idea to let a Summer campaign decide the fate of a very important world.

Results are in: Cadia should fall by all accounts.

Hang on, in a few months there's a new Guard codex coming and it's going to be about Cadians.

Or how about that façade ending of Storm of Chaos. An important Dwarf character crushed by a dragon, a massive Vampire army scared away by a threat and the so-called champion of Chaos getting headbutt into the ground by the best Orc ever, who then said "I win" and walks off just like that.

Happygrunt wrote:Problem is, it wasn't official, and wouldn't really effect the story line. (I am guessing, never played one)

The official ones were pretty obviously meant to have little impact, too.

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Summer campaigns were scrapped because people would manipulate the mechanics for their self-reporting system.

I very much doubt that the outcome and/or how it was achieved played any part at all in the decision to stop doing them.

Just like any other event that GW (or pretty much any other company, for that matter) sets up, the 'summer' campaigns were first and foremost sales tools. I would suspect (and have heard rumours to the effect from various people over the years) that the sales boost returned from running these events simply wasnt sufficient to justify the expense and effort involved in setting them up and running them.

This doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Everything now for GW is cost vs. profit, and so despite the fact that tens of thousands of people took part in the campaigns (and enjoyed them, for the most part) they have been yet another part of the admired components of the company to go into the trash.

The Eye of Terror campaign was absolutely awesome, although it became obvious towards the end (despite Andy Chambers promises) that the result would not change the setting. So, despite the forces of order getting a drubbing (for the most part), and Cadia being firmly in Abaddon's cross-hairs, the Black Legion warlord decided to .... erm... . steal some pylon thing.. so he could.. do something really sinister in the future, like This, despite the objective of the assault being clearly descriped as Cadia at the start of the campaign.

I thought the way the forces of disorder discovered the game mechanic, organised the disorder battles and at the same time helped sew confusion amongst order, was one of the coolest things I have ever seen in the history of wargaming. Then the Order side running about like a bunch of headless chickens with everyone wanting to be SUPREME LEADER this or WARLORD that (I can't remember their names, but two groups giving themselves the same anagram-abbreviation, had me in absolute stitches). All except for the Eldar IIRC, who managed to create some semblance of organised resistance.

@BrookM: That was the point to Garagrim. He took the slayer oath for the whole Karak on himself to go absolve them (Dwarf Jesus FTW). The slowed part of that story was when the Slayer king renewed the vow to go avenge him.

Kanluwen wrote:What the hell are you talking about?

The only way GW would be setting up "legal challenges" is if you're trying to sell your campaign setup.
Which is, in any case, is a jerk move.

I seem to recall there were quite a few fansites that were issued quite...unpleasant letters to remove any GW trade marks and images from there sites. While I very much doubt GW would stop a large scale campaign myself, I personally wouldn't run one because I'd be quite frankly afraid of getting the same treatment as the fansites did. I wouldn't want to create something that I'd then have to shut down because GW is afraid it's intellectual property may be adversely affected.

Jon Garrett wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What the hell are you talking about?

The only way GW would be setting up "legal challenges" is if you're trying to sell your campaign setup.
Which is, in any case, is a jerk move.

I seem to recall there were quite a few fansites that were issued quite...unpleasant letters to remove any GW trade marks and images from there sites. While I very much doubt GW would stop a large scale campaign myself, I personally wouldn't run one because I'd be quite frankly afraid of getting the same treatment as the fansites did. I wouldn't want to create something that I'd then have to shut down because GW is afraid it's intellectual property may be adversely affected.

They weren't running campaigns as fans.
They were, in some cases, maintaining archives of scanned GW material and asking for 'donations' to access those archives.

In some cases, but not all. Some sites, at least to my admittedly not perfect memory, simply had Games Workshop images present on there sites. And while, at the end of the day, it is completely Games Workshop's right to stop this stuff, seeing things like this in the past would make me, personally, very nervous about doing anything more Games Workshop than Dakka Dakka is.

Jon Garrett wrote:In some cases, but not all. Some sites, at least to my admittedly not perfect memory, simply had Games Workshop images present on there sites. And while, at the end of the day, it is completely Games Workshop's right to stop this stuff, seeing things like this in the past would make me, personally, very nervous about doing anything more Games Workshop than Dakka Dakka is.

I just don't see GW shutting down fans trying to organize a campaign.

Now, if those fans were trying to charge people money to participate in that campaign? Oh yeah, they'd shut that down faster than a dog haulin' after a squirrel.

Kanluwen wrote:
I just don't see GW shutting down fans trying to organize a campaign.

But then again no-one could see them shutting down and attacking fans who were helping them keep Blood Bowl alive (see the LRB debacle) but there you go...

filbert wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I just don't see GW shutting down fans trying to organize a campaign.

But then again no-one could see them shutting down and attacking fans who were helping them keep Blood Bowl alive (see the LRB debacle) but there you go...

That was far more complicated than just an unprovoked attack, and you damn well know it.

Several Blood Bowl sites were advertising themselves as "the official home" to Blood Bowl and trying to commission companies to produce Blood Bowl miniatures. Some of those same sites were requiring you to register/pay to access the content that GW themselves had available for free.

Kanluwen wrote:

filbert wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I just don't see GW shutting down fans trying to organize a campaign.

But then again no-one could see them shutting down and attacking fans who were helping them keep Blood Bowl alive (see the LRB debacle) but there you go...

That was far more complicated than just an unprovoked attack, and you damn well know it.

Several Blood Bowl sites were advertising themselves as "the official home" to Blood Bowl and trying to commission companies to produce Blood Bowl miniatures. Some of those same sites were requiring you to register/pay to access the content that GW themselves had available for free.

Regardless of the reasons, GW have form for clamping down on people and sites like a ton of lawyers.

filbert wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

filbert wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I just don't see GW shutting down fans trying to organize a campaign.

But then again no-one could see them shutting down and attacking fans who were helping them keep Blood Bowl alive (see the LRB debacle) but there you go...

That was far more complicated than just an unprovoked attack, and you damn well know it.

Several Blood Bowl sites were advertising themselves as "the official home" to Blood Bowl and trying to commission companies to produce Blood Bowl miniatures. Some of those same sites were requiring you to register/pay to access the content that GW themselves had available for free.

Regardless of the reasons, GW have form for clamping down on people and sites like a ton of lawyers.

Except the reasons are exactly why they "clamped down on people and sites".

Was it the best idea? No. But then again, neither was trying to push another company's models for the LRB and still calling it "Blood Bowl".

Kanluwen wrote:

filbert wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

filbert wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I just don't see GW shutting down fans trying to organize a campaign.

But then again no-one could see them shutting down and attacking fans who were helping them keep Blood Bowl alive (see the LRB debacle) but there you go...

That was far more complicated than just an unprovoked attack, and you damn well know it.

Several Blood Bowl sites were advertising themselves as "the official home" to Blood Bowl and trying to commission companies to produce Blood Bowl miniatures. Some of those same sites were requiring you to register/pay to access the content that GW themselves had available for free.

Regardless of the reasons, GW have form for clamping down on people and sites like a ton of lawyers.

Except the reasons are exactly why they "clamped down on people and sites".

Was it the best idea? No. But then again, neither was trying to push another company's models for the LRB and still calling it "Blood Bowl".

I can't be bothered to track down every thread from the whole episode but here is a link presenting one site owner's response to GW's intimidation:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49821

Now you tell me that this isn't anything other than heavy-handed and is rational? I'm sure some sites may well have been charging people to register and that provoked GW's ire. But just as many other fan sites didn't and haven't and still got hammered.

filbert wrote:

I can't be bothered to track down every thread from the whole episode but here is a link presenting one site owner's response to GW's intimidation:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49821

Now you tell me that this isn't anything other than heavy-handed and is rational? I'm sure some sites may well have been charging people to register and that provoked GW's ire. But just as many other fan sites didn't and haven't and still got hammered.

I didn't say it's not heavy-handed.

But when it came about it was somewhat rational. "Talkbloodbowl" had flagged itself as 'the home of Blood Bowl', and that was right as the Blood Bowl video game was coming out.
Add to it that we were seeing a new head of GW Legal who likely knew nothing about Blood Bowl other than it being a registered GW IP, and you had the makings of a gakstorm in a teapot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just bear in mind:

Nothing in that whole situation is anything like running a campaign. At best, a well-run campaign will be a narrative story with multiple outcomes ala the kinds of fiction published on this very site.

At worst--it will be "fanwank" and worth having around just so we can point at it and say "This is what you don't do."

I'd imagine the reasons individuals (or groups) don't run major world wide campaigns is the same reason GW doesn't: too much time and effort for the benefit.

GW does paint itself in a bit of a corner regarding this situation, however. By aggressively enforcing it's rights to be the only source of 40k material, GW sets up the expectation that it will supply 40k material. Between people that simply accept GW's claims, and those too gunshy to commit, telling people to create fan based content for anything GW related is not going to find fertile ground.

Pacific wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Kanluen wrote:Summer campaigns were scrapped because people would manipulate the mechanics for their self-reporting system.

I very much doubt that the outcome and/or how it was achieved played any part at all in the decision to stop doing them.

Just like any other event that GW (or pretty much any other company, for that matter) sets up, the 'summer' campaigns were first and foremost sales tools. I would suspect (and have heard rumours to the effect from various people over the years) that the sales boost returned from running these events simply wasn't sufficient to justify the expense and effort involved in setting them up and running them.

This doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Everything now for GW is cost vs. profit, and so despite the fact that tens of thousands of people took part in the campaigns (and enjoyed them, for the most part) they have been yet another part of the admired components of the company to go into the trash.

The Eye of Terror campaign was absolutely awesome, although it became obvious towards the end (despite Andy Chambers promises) that the result would not change the setting. So, despite the forces of order getting a drubbing (for the most part), and Cadia being firmly in Abaddon's cross-hairs, the Black Legion warlord decided to .... erm... . steal some pylon thing.. so he could.. do something really sinister in the future, like This, despite the objective of the assault being clearly described as Cadia at the start of the campaign.

I thought the way the forces of disorder discovered the game mechanic, organised the disorder battles and at the same time helped sew confusion amongst order, was one of the coolest things I have ever seen in the history of wargaming. Then the Order side running about like a bunch of headless chickens with everyone wanting to be SUPREME LEADER this or WARLORD that (I can't remember their names, but two groups giving themselves the same anagram-abbreviation, had me in absolute stitches). All except for the Eldar IIRC, who managed to create some semblance of organised resistance.

Yes,as I recall their were some "fail safes" built into the campaign so that GW retained a level of "control" over the final outcome.
Still,as you stated,the company itself was awesome,I don't recall the names of the Forces of Order "Command groups" (such as they were) ATM,but I do recall a group amongst the forces of Disorder that went by the Tittle of "The Triad"...I wasn't part of their collective,but IIRC they were quite instrumental in organizing a great many Chaos players and dealing some serious damage to the Forces of Order.

FITZZ wrote:

Pacific wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Kanluen wrote:Summer campaigns were scrapped because people would manipulate the mechanics for their self-reporting system.

I very much doubt that the outcome and/or how it was achieved played any part at all in the decision to stop doing them.

Just like any other event that GW (or pretty much any other company, for that matter) sets up, the 'summer' campaigns were first and foremost sales tools. I would suspect (and have heard rumours to the effect from various people over the years) that the sales boost returned from running these events simply wasn't sufficient to justify the expense and effort involved in setting them up and running them.

This doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Everything now for GW is cost vs. profit, and so despite the fact that tens of thousands of people took part in the campaigns (and enjoyed them, for the most part) they have been yet another part of the admired components of the company to go into the trash.

The Eye of Terror campaign was absolutely awesome, although it became obvious towards the end (despite Andy Chambers promises) that the result would not change the setting. So, despite the forces of order getting a drubbing (for the most part), and Cadia being firmly in Abaddon's cross-hairs, the Black Legion warlord decided to .... erm... . steal some pylon thing.. so he could.. do something really sinister in the future, like This, despite the objective of the assault being clearly described as Cadia at the start of the campaign.

I thought the way the forces of disorder discovered the game mechanic, organised the disorder battles and at the same time helped sew confusion amongst order, was one of the coolest things I have ever seen in the history of wargaming. Then the Order side running about like a bunch of headless chickens with everyone wanting to be SUPREME LEADER this or WARLORD that (I can't remember their names, but two groups giving themselves the same anagram-abbreviation, had me in absolute stitches). All except for the Eldar IIRC, who managed to create some semblance of organised resistance.

Yes,as I recall their were some "fail safes" built into the campaign so that GW retained a level of "control" over the final outcome.
Still,as you stated,the company itself was awesome,I don't recall the names of the Forces of Order "Command groups" (such as they were) ATM,but I do recall a group amongst the forces of Disorder that went by the Title of "The Triad"...I wasn't part of their collective,but IIRC they were quite instrumental in organizing a great many Chaos players and dealing some serious damage to the Forces of Order.

The Triad, quite frankly, ruined a large amount of my fun for the 13th Black Crusade.

They 'discovered' how the reporting mechanics worked, and purposefully exploited it while also creating dummy accounts to chime in with false information on the Order's side of the fence.

It was a dick move, and just plain unnecessary imo.

I presume you were a force of order player Kanluwen? You have to see how that was extremely entertaining from the other side of the fence.

The point was, not everyone followed what the Triad were doing, but it was made easier by the complete ineptitude of trying to make any kind of organisation on the side of Order. So many order players kept posting wins on worlds/systems which were practically impossible to capture, no matter how many wins were spammed at that location. It didn't take a genius to work out that there was some kind of system in place to that effect, even though the Triad eventually worked out such a system exactly I think many players were already on the right track with it.

The posting of inaccurate information by 'spies' from the forces of disorder I thought was hilarious (and a rare example of real life matching the game universe ) but to be honest, if I remember there's was just a few voices amongst dozens of people proclaiming themselves to be 'Lord Solar xxxxx ' or whatever, all spamming 'ATTACK SYSTEM x' (usually the incorrect one). Of course the disorder side had these as well, but a few voices managed to make themselves heard, and through getting results managed to obtain a kind of authority despite the chaos of the system. I liked the fact that that happened, and it made the campaign a hundred times better for me (although I can see how I would be pissed had I been an order player)

Kanluwen wrote:

Jon Garrett wrote:In some cases, but not all. Some sites, at least to my admittedly not perfect memory, simply had Games Workshop images present on there sites. And while, at the end of the day, it is completely Games Workshop's right to stop this stuff, seeing things like this in the past would make me, personally, very nervous about doing anything more Games Workshop than Dakka Dakka is.

I just don't see GW shutting down fans trying to organize a campaign.

Now, if those fans were trying to charge people money to participate in that campaign? Oh yeah, they'd shut that down faster than a dog haulin' after a squirrel.

So what you're saying is the organizers have no chance, whatsoever, of recouping their server and bandwidth costs without being sued into the ground by those for whom they are pimping?

Gee, I wonder why more people aren't jumping at that opportunity!

E: And even if I run it as a loss, GW won't assure me immunity, just that they *probably* won't sue? What a bargain!

@ Kan.

Hmm, I had no idea The Triad took part in any unsportsmanlike activities...of course as I said I wasn't part of their collective.
How certain are you that they created "dummy accounts"?
If it is true...yes,extreme dick move.

Pacific wrote:I presume you were a force of order player Kanluwen? You have to see how that was extremely entertaining from the other side of the fence.

The point was, not everyone followed what the Triad were doing, but it was made easier by the complete ineptitude of trying to make any kind of organisation on the side of Order. So many order players kept posting wins on worlds/systems which were practically impossible to capture, no matter how many wins were spammed at that location. It didn't take a genius to work out that there was some kind of system in place to that effect, even though the Triad eventually worked out such a system exactly I think many players were already on the right track with it.

And it still was bollocks, frankly. The Triad didn't "work out a system".
They exploited the game mechanics to their own end, and told their side exactly how to use those mechanics.

The posting of inaccurate information by 'spies' from the forces of disorder I thought was hilarious (and a rare example of real life matching the game universe ) but to be honest, if I remember there's was just a few voices amongst dozens of people proclaiming themselves to be 'Lord Solar xxxxx ' or whatever, all spamming 'ATTACK SYSTEM x' (usually the incorrect one). Of course the disorder side had these as well, but a few voices managed to make themselves heard, and through getting results managed to obtain a kind of authority despite the chaos of the system. I liked the fact that that happened, and it made the campaign a hundred times better for me (although I can see how I would be pissed had I been an order player)

Yeah, but at the same time the game universe has no real nature for 'spies' to function. This isn't the "real life" where everyone looks the same.

An Ork or Tyranid or even a Chaos Space Marine can't walk into an Imperial or Eldar strategic meeting without getting gunned down.

So yeah. I found the constant dummy account shenanigans BS. Not to mention

Doctor Optimal wrote:So what you're saying is the organizers have no chance, whatsoever, of recouping their server and bandwidth costs without being sued into the ground by those for whom they are pimping?

Gee, I wonder why more people aren't jumping at that opportunity!

Sorry, I guess you're not understanding this properly.

You don't need to make a site "devoted" to running just that campaign. I could feasibly organize and run an entire campaign here on Dakka--and it wouldn't impact Dakka at all. It would just require me to be a dedicated organizer for that campaign.

God forbid you have to do a little work getting things in order so players have an enjoyable time!

Online reporting statistics are easily exploited anyways, as Armageddon and 13th Black Crusade and Medusa V demonstrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FITZZ wrote: @ Kan.

Hmm, I had no idea The Triad took part in any unsportsmanlike activities...of course as I said I wasn't part of their collective.
How certain are you that they created "dummy accounts"?
If it is true...yes,extreme dick move.

Pretty certain, as I recalled a few of them bragging about it on Portent/Warseer.

I see..

In general The Green Kroozade did their own thing,not relying on "Triad tactics" to formulate our attacks.
For us it was a simple matter of hammer a planet until it fell and move on to the next.
Seems most of the people on the Ork boards,at least those that were part of the Green Kroozade were more interested in having a good time than spying.

FITZZ wrote: I see..

In general The Green Kroozade did their own thing,not relying on "Triad tactics" to formulate our attacks.
For us it was a simple matter of hammer a planet until it fell and move on to the next.
Seems most of the people on the Ork boards,at least those that were part of the Green Kroozade were more interested in having a good time than spying.

Bear in mind: I'm sure it wasn't every single one of them. But the ones who found out the mechanics of the reporting system at least were exploiting it like crazy.

I remember Andy Chambers said at a Games Day discussion panel that during the process of the campaign, when they were getting ready for one of the Games Day events--they found a 'spike' where Disorder effectively went from losing across the board--to suddenly creaming Order everywhere.

That's when they decided to build in a few 'failsafes' in terms of lore and the like.