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Phototoxin wrote:It still baffles how in the 80s and 90s they were able to have :
Warhammer
Warhammer 40k
Necromunda
Gorkamorka
Mordheim
Talisman
Warhammer Quest
Space Hulk
Warmaster
Epic 40k

Sell them, sell mostly metal miniatures, support said games relatively well AND make profits. Whereas now where a £20 sprue costs them £2 to make they are failing... it baffles.

1 bearly profitable new shop a month for 15 years will do that to you!

Seriously though it wont happen because I don't think there that much of a game there compared to 40K. As others have said - missing races.

Marines vs Marines, I see enough complaints about this as it is with 40K, I don't think a new set of clothes and only 18-20 chapters/legions would be quite as interesting as people imagine.

Yakface's idea of Epic 30K on the other has some substantial merit as a way of reinvigorating Epic. This is where LEgions and titans should be duking it out.

Of course this is all a pipe dream as The Hobbit will almost certainly cement GW's accounts for the next 5 years or so. [I want Epic ]

FITZZ wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:It still baffles how in the 80s and 90s they were able to have :
Warhammer
Warhammer 40k
Necromunda
Gorkamorka
Mordheim
Talisman
Warhammer Quest
Space Hulk
Warmaster
Epic 40k

Sell them, sell mostly metal miniatures, support said games relatively well AND make profits. Whereas now where a £20 sprue costs them £2 to make they are failing... it baffles.

Your not alone in your bafflement...I often wonder what exactly happened at "GW central control", becuase IMO something has indeed gone very wrong.

You forgot BFG

I do agree that they seem to have lost the abillity to juggle more stuff, ok some of these rulesets were one off releases with little in the way of supplement other than models, why they couldnt maintain stuff in a manner like space hulks latest incarnation I do not know, but I think other posters have hit the nail on the head with dilution of the play pool, I mean ok for those players that have been in the hobby for ever and have several painted/game ready armies across a few formats its not an issue to find games, but people with less disposable income or newer hobbyists (and lets be honest its a new guy coming in and buying an army that generates alot of income) cant afford to/ dont have the time or backlog of miniatures to play multiformat gaming, its like the PS3 and Xbox 360 both being released by the same company at the same time.

I'm not saying they are 100% correct in thinking this way but especially during the current financial situation a more diluted playpool would lead to more people struggling to get a game and becoming disollusioned(sp?) as a result. Rather than an entire Heresy era ruleset, which i think would be too much of an undertaking not to mention confusing for new players, I would like to see a Heresy supplement book that work around the 40k ruleset as base but with legio lists and points values as well as datasheets for the primarchs and such. The key for me would be making the models multiformat so If I had a Heresy marine list I could easily field it in reduced form for 40k without having to consider a completely different ruleset.

I wouldn't mind them doing a collector's range of Heresy era models, or perhaps some busts (say, a Primarchs series would be nice), but the WH30k background does not really support a game all that well.

"Warhammer 30k: Because we didn't feel we pimped Space Marines hard enough."

eh, at least release the Shoulder pad and conversion kit, they don't need to release the whole deal, Forgeworld have made the regular marines model though

Retrias wrote:eh, at least release the Shoulder pad and conversion kit, they don't need to release the whole deal, Forgeworld have made the regular marines model though

Just a plastic tactical squard with all mk4,5 and 6 parts would make me very happy

Just use the current rules as 30k ones wont be any different ? or if you realy want a game that pitches play as if each single marine is an indervidual on the battle field then play 2nd ed !
>rant on <
i can remember the days when players had imagenation and just went out and did what they wanted rather than moan that someone hasnt done it for them !!

I blame the internet !! >rant off :] <

Perhaps they could do a part license? Obviously they keep hold of the 40k races, but perhaps aloow a 3rd party company to produce a "races" codex and models to go with it. There has been mention of some tasty races in the Heresy books, races that could hold their own in a gaming situation. On top of that you obviously have the Heresy as well. Limited edition run of metal Primarchs? Would sell like hot cakes. It would fire up gamers and could spark a new round of tournies based on it.

40k's history, short of the main game, is that of a lot of interesting fluff that GW either never did anything with or tried for a brief period, and then stepped back and left to stagnate and die. It's particularly sad when the ruleset they made either was a very well made system (Necromunda), or had the potential to be great with a bit of work (Inquisitor... okay... maybe a little more than 'a bit' of work... but the background is great).

It's not surprising, but it is disappointing, to see them go down this route. They simply weighed the benefits of supporting thier spinoff games as being insignificant to the benifits of focusing solely on their core products. The fact that they killed off (okay, shot in the mouth and are now letting it bleed to death) specialist games is a pretty good indication that they won't be supporting anything new for any time soon.

I have it on good authority that apparently there was a discussion about this very topic some years ago in GW HQ.

The decision was made not to go with any labelled '30k' releases. I was told at the time that this was a concern about confusing the player base in splitting the concept of the game universe. I don't know if thats the case, or just the feelings of the chap who told me about it.

And so the fabled '30k sprue' never appeared, and instead bits of it have been used with various other releases, such as AOBR, and even part of the BA range.

Personally it doesn't matter to me - part of the fun of a PH army is collecting and converting yourself, which is now easier to do than ever, and there is already a fairly sizable contingent of PH fans who regularly organize events, rulesets and everything else needed for that period without any input from GW other than the BL material (and of course those great new FW power armour collections! )

Ouze wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:It still baffles how in the 80s and 90s they were able to have :
Warhammer
Warhammer 40k
Necromunda
Gorkamorka
Mordheim
Talisman
Warhammer Quest
Space Hulk
Warmaster
Epic 40k

Sell them, sell mostly metal miniatures, support said games relatively well AND make profits. Whereas now where a £20 sprue costs them £2 to make they are failing... it baffles.

Your not alone in your bafflement...I often wonder what exactly happened at "GW central control", becuase IMO something has indeed gone very wrong.

How common were releases for these games, in a non-nolgastic metric? I myself have only been into 40k for a few years, so I can't say, but were there frequent releases for stuff like Mordheim and Gorkamorka?

It's also worth pointing out at least some of the games still ARE current: Talisman, Space Hulk and they even added Death Angel recently. Obviously they decided it was cheaper\more lucrative to license it out to a dedicated board\cardgame producer, but they own the IP and it's seeing new releases - hardly not kept up with.

Uh...

It wasn't hard at all when FANS had control of the nut house. They had no less then four or five magazines, umpteen websites, and healthy support from, by, and for fans. When they started thier lockdown, Jervis went back to the main office, and the supply of good ideas was stove-piped, then the games went south, the support system died, and the once healthy steady stream of new stuff dried up.

"Specialist Games" was a steady idea market of stuff with the supposed inhouse players and fans that contributed to it. They had a good relation with the fans untill the bean counters had to justify themselves the healthy pay bonuses, the disjointed logistic, and the overhead that we see today.

Releases for the game were MONTHLY with helthy ideas in all catagories. They had so much material that they could have continued ALL of the games indefinatly, even with the revolving door of talent. I didn't agree with Gav the Noob's take on the game, but what he did provide was another prospective, that they seem to NOT have these days.They don't seem to have a replacement for this guy, the epidomy of the young kid that hung around the store, kicking it oldschool, getting ready to take over the older guys game healm when the time comes.

One of the smartest things that this reader thinks they did was to defer the incompetence and go with a strictly board games designer in FF, and to keep thier hands out of FF's pie and let them do what they do best. In fact, with the current facist take that GW takes on its games these days, you would think that they would use ideas that work, and run with them, instead, we don't get any help in terms of support for the specialist-games, and even see them rotting on the vine while we wait several months to years for rudimentary support for even the mainline, flagship games.

Back in the day, GW claimed that each of the standing armies wouldn't have the issues that they have today, and that every range would get attention. Obviously that was wrong, but it is worth bringing to the conversation in light of someone asking a reletivly rudimentary question. "Why doesn't GW comeback out with the older or even revamp-ed armor of the periods of the Imperium,or even for that matter the Preherasy armor, seeing as that the fluff dicates that the Space Marines Armor is the epidomy of technology, and that the space marines and imperium will do evverything at all costs to retrieve it, and use it almost forever?"
The fluff itself is rife with the reasoning as to do it, even if not for a 30K edition, but just to add it in to your preexisiting armys.

They had a set of the armor through the ages consisting of the old sculpts, but whats wrong with putting them out in plastic, or even adding in some sprues of the bits?

Here is my 2 pennies worth.. Space Marines like them or loath them are an integral part of GW IP, to deny this is to deny "Mickey Mouse" is Disney. Space Marines sell quite well infact very well.

The HH is a very Space Marine Centric event, yes there were IG regiments and tanks and titan legions. But the Primarchs were given Legions of Astartes not IG Regiments, Astartes are the chosen ones, greatest and brightest.

30k would be a release of miniatures, possibly with a rule book possibly not, that would re-invigorate the Marines for both Chaos and Loyalists. More options for converting, modelling collecting the earlier versions of your own chapter or a new one, or for Chaos Players to get their hands on some brilliant Pre-heresy Armour etc without paying the amount wanted at FW.

I agree that far too little attention is being paid to the other races. I would suggest that money from Project 30K be diverted to 40K Races and a massive re-invigoration of WARHAMMER FANTASY BATTLE....There should be a very laid down delivery schedule for CODICES and Mini's, Game systems. These silly half thought out mini-releases like "Spearhead" etc are ridiculous because quite frankly Who can afford £80 to buy 3 Predators for an Assassin squad? And you can only play in Apocalypse game and even a hardened gamer cannot do it more than once a month Etc etc...

There should be a definite Cadre of people with proper management and delivery experience, incharge of driving GW forward. GW should take a leaf out of PIXAR's example and allow their artists more freedom and creativity in the design side and recruit a more able management base to cover costs, sales, advertising. 3rd Party licenses should be encouraged, as should tie ins, anything that carries their label increases their exposure.
In short they did well off the back of LOTR in the early 00's but they never capitalised on it.

The 40K MMO, SPace Marine Game and Ultramarines movie appeal to the fan base, but they need to up their advertising game.

i think maybe a book like apocalypse would b e cool plus some primarch models and FW bringin out some new bit and bats, the epic scale idea was awesome btw, i didnt even think of that as an option but it would be perfect.

fyi im not just bitching and doing nothing about it, since i kno GW will keep their head up their arse on this one im writing my own primarch rules.

their loosely based around the hq choices of the respective armies but beefed up considerably (eg russ has an extra attack over sanguinius because grimnar does but sanguinius has higher initiative)

and im writing a beefed up version of chapter tactics for each army and a mathmatically fair stat line.

screw gw me and my math heavy freinds have come up with the rules.

Dez wrote:Man I hope they take a financial dump so I can play Warhammer 30K and campaign scenarios from the Horus Heresy books

Why do you need something official to do that? Get you and your friends off your duffs, write up some scenarios and characters, do some converting, and get going.

What happened to the days when we did things for ourselves that GW wasn't doing instead of sitting around complaining that they weren't putting out something "official"?

Personally before I read the CSM's fluff, I always assumed the Heresy was a tiny little booboo in the Imperium's history. Even though it does affect alot of the setting, if you dont know about chaos, you probably dont know just how impacting it's suppose to be.

Besides, isnt FW doing some pre-heresy stuff in the form of old armors and junk? Given that only veteran players would know about it, seems perfectly fitting that the resin upgrade kits take over this part of the hobby.

I do sort of see GW's reasoninbg with usng HH products as a get out of jail free card, from f what I could gather they were about 2p away from going completely bust.

To people desperate for HH models: as previously said: forge world do a brilliant range of astarte armour variants, and i dont think the cureent SM c odex needs that much tweeking and there's probably hundreds of decent primarch conversions around- there's no real need for it, IMO and plenty of more deservng things to focus on- like an official lost and the damned codex!

Platuan4th wrote:

Dez wrote:Man I hope they take a financial dump so I can play Warhammer 30K and campaign scenarios from the Horus Heresy books

Why do you need something official to do that? Get you and your friends off your duffs, write up some scenarios and characters, do some converting, and get going.

What happened to the days when we did things for ourselves that GW wasn't doing instead of sitting around complaining that they weren't putting out something "official"?

Absolutely! there are several focused websites and blogs out there (check out www.thegreatcrusade.so.uk, which IMO is the best one).

A gaming group in Nottingham called Tempus Fugitives (http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/) have made a campaign pack for various eras of the heresy (with quite in depth rules for stuff outside the standard wargear, vehicles and characters; rules available in pdf form once you register), and there are numerous other examples of that around as well.

In short, the PH scene has never been more healthy in terms of fan output, and now FW have releases a great range of early army-mark marines which not only look great, but serve if you don't have the time or inclination to convert your own.

the rout wrote:I think its high time GW brought out heresy range and tbh I cant really see a dwonside for them or for us. Anyone have any idea as to how we could convince the powers that be that this is not only awesome to us as fans but to them as a company? Me and my friends would be extatic and im sure youll agree it would be a huge money maker.

They could make new rule books and codexes as well as new heroes (Loken, Garro, and Bulveye to name but a few) and of course the holy grail official GW primarch models!!!

So I guess im trying to start some sort of petition/ brainstorming session as to how we can make my/our geeky dream come true.

Well I want to make two points:

1. Forge World has just come out with early marks of power armor. I think there is a good chance this is GW testing the waters to see if there really is a market for the 30k setup.

2. The idea of an early WHFB system based off of the Rise of Sigmar got me thinking that GW has a problem (other than high prices that is). They are dealing with a very well established IP and associated models that now seem to be based on the less popular parts of their respective timelines.

So I believe that GW is on the verge (well within 5 years anyway) of releasing a 30k supplement for 40k. It would be interesting and it wouldn't really take a large amount of models being released. Honestly you just need plastic marines of various marks. This could be done with two or three boxed sets very easily with perhaps a new race or two (yea I am totally wanting the Interex to be released).

Platuan4th wrote:

Dez wrote:Man I hope they take a financial dump so I can play Warhammer 30K and campaign scenarios from the Horus Heresy books

Why do you need something official to do that? Get you and your friends off your duffs, write up some scenarios and characters, do some converting, and get going.

What happened to the days when we did things for ourselves that GW wasn't doing instead of sitting around complaining that they weren't putting out something "official"?

Sorry bud, but that was kinda tongue in cheek there I wouldn't truly wish anyone ruin. I'm not lazy, and I'm not complaining. Just thought it would be nice if there was something right out of the box, as my time is pretty limited. I have a Wife, Kids (one an infant), house, and a 70+ hour a week job so I just don't have the time necessary to design, write and playtest a campaign by myself. If I have spare time, I'd much rather spend it converting and painting I belong to a pretty big gaming group, and I do get involved on a pretty deep level with the events that we run and I know what goes into it. Unfortunately all that work and it would probably be me and 3 other people that would be into it. So for now I just read and convert

Pacific, I know you from TGC I also visit Before the Heresy every day. I tried signing up for the Tempus Fugitives website a few times and never got approved by the admins, or else I'd L O V E to use those scenarios! Well, read them at least.

Phototoxin wrote:It still baffles how in the 80s and 90s they were able to have :
Warhammer
Warhammer 40k
Necromunda
Gorkamorka
Mordheim
Talisman
Warhammer Quest
Space Hulk
Warmaster
Epic 40k

Sell them, sell mostly metal miniatures, support said games relatively well AND make profits. Whereas now where a £20 sprue costs them £2 to make they are failing... it baffles.

Off Topic: Did you really make a list of GW's great games from back in the day and not include Blood Bowl!? Heresy, sir!

I own all of the games listed (aside from Talisman, never appealled to me for some reason) and still enjoy them as I believe they are virtually timeless and tons of fun even after all this time. One thing to keep in mind though, was that although this may have been a Golden Age for GW hobbyists, it really came close to being the End Times for GW the company, as I was led to believe by insiders at the Glen Burnie Battle Bunker (former GW HQ in the States). As they told it, they were practically hemmoraghing money towards the end of the 90s early 2000's when all these games were still supported/stocked.

In addition to their product support for these game systems (a few of the games you listed were given expansions in addition to regular releases), and stocking them on shelves at hobby centers, you had:

-multiple versions of White Dwarf and GW websites (speparate web teams per nation = bigger payroll)
-various quarterly magazines focused solely on a particular specialist game, then combined into one, or vice versa (again = payroll. + printing costs in this case)
-a comic book series (payroll, printing costs again)
-Inferno magazine (successfully transitioned to Black Library? They got this right, at least.)
-the much loved and missed bitz system (inventory/warehouse space. I know in the US, my business scaled down our inventory to avoid taxation during the rough patches, couldn't imagine the taxes on the bitz inventory alone)

I'm sure I'm missing some more key elements of this great time, but I think I got enough to make my point (I hope) about how everything wasn't so idyllic as it seemed to those of us rolling the dice on the table. I remember when "experts" at the hobby stores and the early forums/discussion groups from the 90s were predicting GWs imminent demise and saying it burnt out, expanding too fast, with too much. Now the tone is a slow demise, if the "experts" from every GW financial thread are to be believed this time.
I think todays GW is the extreme response to the late 90s, cutting the specialists games loose basically, the blandification of the website and WD, focus on 3 systems and none of their offshoots etc. I'm not defending their reaction, just saying its perfectly natural for a business to do the same. Its a fallacy to blame the "suits" and "bean counters" for ruining this time in GW history, as someone did in this thread. The fact that GW is still around is kind of a testament to them doing what they are paid to do. Free Pro financial tip: Downsizing to refocus on core products when times get rough is better then bankruptcy.

With that said, GWs definitely not perfect by any stretch, and they need to find a happy medium between how they were in the 90s to the early 2000's, to how they are now. The sooner the better, please.

On Topic: I'd personally like to see some comprehensive xenos releases before they create an expansion thats would focus on an era of lore that is, when you boil it down, marine vs marine. Yes imperial guard and other auxilliary forces played a part, but its essentially about the larger then life Primarch heroes and their legions, at its heart. Plus a series of releases focusing on space marines may prolong the lame as feth "sphess marinz" joke or that one mod's "Codex: <instert color> marine" previews that have been hammered into unfunniness. Tastes vary of course, to each their own. A forgeworld book series would work fine too.

Ouze wrote:How common were releases for these games, in a non-nolgastic metric? I myself have only been into 40k for a few years, so I can't say, but were there frequent releases for stuff like Mordheim and Gorkamorka?

No, Necromuna, Mordheim, Bloodbowl, GorkaMorka, Battlefleet Gothic all had one expansion.
Space Hulk had two (which, in my opinion, spoiled the game).
Epic 40K had no expansions, it was just canned.
Can't comment on Warmaster or WHQuest, I never paid much attention to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NELS1031 wrote:Off Topic: Did you really make a list of GW's great games from back in the day and not include Blood Bowl!? Heresy, sir!

And Space Fleet / Battlefleet Gothic.

Apoc is the spiritual successor to Epic. While it made the specialist game more accessable for the common player, it also made it alot more expensive.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Apoc is the spiritual successor to Epic. While it made the specialist game more accessable for the common player, it also made it alot more expensive.

I would utterly disagree with that.
Epic 40K / Armageddon is all about manoeuvre, it's a really tight tactical game. Apoc is about lots of models and lots of dice.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Apoc is the spiritual successor to Epic. While it made the specialist game more accessable for the common player, it also made it alot more expensive.

That's what they want you to think.

Anyone who has spent any significant time with epic knows that Apoc doesn't even come close to the tactical experience of the little 6mm guys, and instead relies on using a bucket to roll dice and the potential (admittedly captivating) image it creates of having lots of models on the tabletop. Have to say though that 90% of Apoc games I have seen in store have resembled the kind of game you used to have when you were 8, didn't really know what you were doing, and just slapped an unpainted horde of everything on the table and made shooting noises.

Fafnir wrote:GW doesn't care about what you want or think.

+30,000

Absolutionis wrote:I understand why it would be appealing to some to have a Heresy range, but such a range would divide the Warhammer players even further than the current Fantasy vs. 40k.

Why is this a problem? Is it even a problem? If you are buying GW minis, GW wins.

Phototoxin wrote:It still baffles how in the 80s and 90s they were able to have :
Warhammer
Warhammer 40k
Necromunda
Gorkamorka
Mordheim
Talisman
Warhammer Quest
Space Hulk
Warmaster
Epic 40k

Sell them, sell mostly metal miniatures, support said games relatively well AND make profits. Whereas now where a £20 sprue costs them £2 to make they are failing... it baffles.

Under New Management

Fafnir wrote:GW doesn't care about what you want or think.

My computer screen needs a good cleaning now.

Thanks.